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Old
01-29-2013, 07:30 AM
  #476
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Originally Posted by CBJFan19 View Post
Nope playing better defense doesn't help the team when you're so weak in scoring.
New to hockey huh, that explains it. You probably enjoy 6 to 5 games. Scoring goals is sexy. Well that might make the highlight reels but great goaltending and defense still wins championships.

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01-29-2013, 07:56 AM
  #477
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I'm on Jones bandwagon too. Not a knock on Nate, I really like him.

Murray-Jones pairing would have the potential to be the best pairing in NHL..

I think people are really underrating the importance of #1D. Well, Murray certainly has the potential to be that and more but Jones will be better imo. He has the whole package.

Nate is great, not arguing with that. But he's not on Crosby/Ovy/Stamkos level imo. He's first few steps are awesome, great goal scoring instincts/abilities but I think Jones would be more valuable player. It may take more time as it tends to be with defenseman.

Maybe RyJo becomes the #1C or Lazar falls and we take him and he'll find his offense. Or go after #1C at next draft.

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01-29-2013, 08:36 AM
  #478
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Originally Posted by OldGoaltender View Post
New to hockey huh, that explains it. You probably enjoy 6 to 5 games. Scoring goals is sexy. Well that might make the highlight reels but great goaltending and defense still wins championships.
That's a myth. All the teams that win championships in the last ten years have been in the top five in goals per game in the the playoffs. And the only team that didn't finish in the top ten in the regular season is the New Jersey Devils like 10 years ago. So Defense doesn't win as many championships as you would like to believe.

What's going to help this teams defense is some skilled offensive players to get the puck out of our own zone.

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01-29-2013, 08:55 AM
  #479
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Originally Posted by brianhatesu View Post
That's a myth. All the teams that win championships in the last ten years have been in the top five in goals per game in the the playoffs. And the only team that didn't finish in the top ten in the regular season is the New Jersey Devils like 10 years ago. So Defense doesn't win as many championships as you would like to believe.

What's going to help this teams defense is some skilled offensive players to get the puck out of our own zone.
Kings last year?

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01-29-2013, 09:05 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by brianhatesu View Post
That's a myth. All the teams that win championships in the last ten years have been in the top five in goals per game in the the playoffs. And the only team that didn't finish in the top ten in the regular season is the New Jersey Devils like 10 years ago. So Defense doesn't win as many championships as you would like to believe.

What's going to help this teams defense is some skilled offensive players to get the puck out of our own zone.
Yes Brian but looking at those teams, hot goaltending, solid defending leading to timely goals creates champions. Usually great defensive teams, leads to great offense. Rarely does an offensive juggernaut win the championship.

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01-29-2013, 09:07 AM
  #481
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yea, I forgot to check the regular season last year, but still they were third in the playoffs.

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01-29-2013, 09:19 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by OldGoaltender View Post
Yes Brian but looking at those teams, hot goaltending, solid defending leading to timely goals creates champions. Usually great defensive teams, leads to great offense. Rarely does an offensive juggernaut win the championship.
It's not an offense vs defense thing. It's about balance. Clearly, we are stacked at the d position. Goaltending is still questionable but their are prospects and I feel this is just an easier spot to fill by free agents. Then there are top line players that this team has none of. I'm sure Seth Jones is great, but there is this tendency to over-hype d prospects here. It's done every year. But the fact is this team clearly needs skilled forwards and that has to be the focus of the draft.

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01-29-2013, 09:48 AM
  #483
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i feel we have a bunch of average at defense...Murray may be the only top end dman we have...not to say Moore, Erixon, Savard, JJ, etc can't become more top notch...i just don't think CURRENTLY they are

Enter Jones and all of the sudden we have a legit top defensive pairing to build around...

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01-29-2013, 09:57 AM
  #484
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Current breakdown of majority opinions

If Mack is there, take him. If not take Jones.

Barkov is the best of the rest.

Let's hope the Rangers and Kings crash and burn (though they will probably face each other in the finals )

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01-29-2013, 01:29 PM
  #485
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Seth Jones is a great prospect, but it's unlikely any defenseman can just step into the NHL and turn into a top pairing guy who can fix the Jackets' defensive struggles.

Look at how long it's taken Jack Johnson to develop. Or Erik Johnson. Defensemen taken in the top 2 picks have a rather low success rate.

Jones is almost a full year older than MacKinnon and Barkov, but he only has one year of major junior. He may play in the NHL next season and may have the highest and most coveted ceiling, but it's rare for a 19 year old defenseman to just step into the NHL and change a team.

If the Jackets have the #1 pick and don't take Jones, they may regret it in 5 years. But statistics do show that top pairing defensemen can be found later in the draft, but most top centers are taken in the first few picks of the draft.

MacKinnon, Barkov and Lindholm are the type of centers the Jackets have been missing. They need playmakers.

The Jackets hopefully aren't bad enough this year to get the top pick and don't have to worry about having to pick between Jones and the forwards. That's not going to be an easy choice. While MacKinnon has the hype and more attention from playing in the CHL, Barkov has the potential to be an incredibly special player.

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01-29-2013, 01:34 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by OldGoaltender View Post
New to hockey huh, that explains it. You probably enjoy 6 to 5 games. Scoring goals is sexy. Well that might make the highlight reels but great goaltending and defense still wins championships.
how many championships did Suter-Weber get Nashville?

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01-29-2013, 01:36 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
i feel we have a bunch of average at defense...Murray may be the only top end dman we have...not to say Moore, Erixon, Savard, JJ, etc can't become more top notch...i just don't think CURRENTLY they are

Enter Jones and all of the sudden we have a legit top defensive pairing to build around...
and still not scoring and continuing to have one of the worst teams in hockey

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01-29-2013, 02:12 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by JacketsFanWest View Post
Seth Jones is a great prospect, but it's unlikely any defenseman can just step into the NHL and turn into a top pairing guy who can fix the Jackets' defensive struggles.

Look at how long it's taken Jack Johnson to develop. Or Erik Johnson. Defensemen taken in the top 2 picks have a rather low success rate.

Jones is almost a full year older than MacKinnon and Barkov, but he only has one year of major junior. He may play in the NHL next season and may have the highest and most coveted ceiling, but it's rare for a 19 year old defenseman to just step into the NHL and change a team.
I'll throw Chris Pronger into the mix as well, if we feel like going back that far. Reading the Seth Jones scouting reports and talking to a few people who know their stuff, it sounds almost word-for-word like Pronger's reports back in 1993. And it took him four years post-draft to actually look like he belonged in the NHL on a regular basis, part of that aided by being around guys like Al MacInnis.

On the other hand, a few defensemen in the last 10 years have been able to step in early and not look out of place. And with the injury, we won't know this year if Ryan Murray is one of them.

Quote:
If the Jackets have the #1 pick and don't take Jones, they may regret it in 5 years. But statistics do show that top pairing defensemen can be found later in the draft, but most top centers are taken in the first few picks of the draft.
To give a different angle, look at the market. Big-time defensemen warrant a big-time price on the trade market. Pronger, for example, netted an in-his-prime Brendan Shanahan. If Suter or Weber had been moved last year, I can see a price like two first-rounders, an excellent prospect, and a young roster player.

What a team like Pittsburgh has done is just keep adding top-level defensemen prospects to the stables. Even if one stagnates, his trade value for a forward will be extremely high.

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01-29-2013, 02:17 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by JacketsFanWest View Post
Seth Jones is a great prospect, but it's unlikely any defenseman can just step into the NHL and turn into a top pairing guy who can fix the Jackets' defensive struggles.

Look at how long it's taken Jack Johnson to develop. Or Erik Johnson. Defensemen taken in the top 2 picks have a rather low success rate.

Jones is almost a full year older than MacKinnon and Barkov, but he only has one year of major junior. He may play in the NHL next season and may have the highest and most coveted ceiling, but it's rare for a 19 year old defenseman to just step into the NHL and change a team.

If the Jackets have the #1 pick and don't take Jones, they may regret it in 5 years. But statistics do show that top pairing defensemen can be found later in the draft, but most top centers are taken in the first few picks of the draft.

MacKinnon, Barkov and Lindholm are the type of centers the Jackets have been missing. They need playmakers.

The Jackets hopefully aren't bad enough this year to get the top pick and don't have to worry about having to pick between Jones and the forwards. That's not going to be an easy choice. While MacKinnon has the hype and more attention from playing in the CHL, Barkov has the potential to be an incredibly special player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I'll throw Chris Pronger into the mix as well, if we feel like going back that far. Reading the Seth Jones scouting reports and talking to a few people who know their stuff, it sounds almost word-for-word like Pronger's reports back in 1993. And it took him four years post-draft to actually look like he belonged in the NHL on a regular basis, part of that aided by being around guys like Al MacInnis.

On the other hand, a few defensemen in the last 10 years have been able to step in early and not look out of place. And with the injury, we won't know this year if Ryan Murray is one of them.



To give a different angle, look at the market. Big-time defensemen warrant a big-time price on the trade market. Pronger, for example, netted an in-his-prime Brendan Shanahan. If Suter or Weber had been moved last year, I can see a price like two first-rounders, an excellent prospect, and a young roster player.

What a team like Pittsburgh has done is just keep adding top-level defensemen prospects to the stables. Even if one stagnates, his trade value for a forward will be extremely high.
great points, both of you....as alpha said...i won't be upset if we can get either Jones or MacKinnon...of course I prefer the center, but like I said before...Jones/Murray pairing for next 10 yrs... *DROOL*

would be nice if LA and NYR both tanked for us

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01-29-2013, 02:51 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by CBJFan19 View Post
how many championships did Suter-Weber get Nashville?
How many championships have the Islanders had by selecting a skilled forward for the last decade, or the Oilers or the Blue Jackets? If you look at Boston when they won the cup, they had a very balanced team that had great defensemen. By having multiple top defensemen, the onus of winning can be shifted from the forwards to the defense and allow for everyone to fit in their roles better. Furthermore, by adding a high-end defensive prospect, there is more freedom to make trades with our defensive prospects to bring in established scoring.

If there is anything that I've learned from following the blue jackets for the last ten years, it's that high-end forwards at the top of the draft can be very hit or miss, and if we are in a position to draft a player who is close to a sure thing, then our team will be much better off.

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01-29-2013, 02:54 PM
  #491
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I would prefer that they play well enough, this season, to have to be very lucky to get Barkov.

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01-29-2013, 02:57 PM
  #492
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How many championships have the Islanders had by selecting a skilled forward for the last decade, or the Oilers or the Blue Jackets? If you look at Boston when they won the cup, they had a very balanced team that had great defensemen. By having multiple top defensemen, the onus of winning can be shifted from the forwards to the defense and allow for everyone to fit in their roles better. Furthermore, by adding a high-end defensive prospect, there is more freedom to make trades with our defensive prospects to bring in established scoring.

If there is anything that I've learned from following the blue jackets for the last ten years, it's that high-end forwards at the top of the draft can be very hit or miss, and if we are in a position to draft a player who is close to a sure thing, then our team will be much better off.
Excellent post.

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01-29-2013, 03:05 PM
  #493
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MacKinnon is pretty close (if not there) to a sure thing also.

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01-29-2013, 03:13 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by bigdog33 View Post
How many championships have the Islanders had by selecting a skilled forward for the last decade, or the Oilers or the Blue Jackets? If you look at Boston when they won the cup, they had a very balanced team that had great defensemen. By having multiple top defensemen, the onus of winning can be shifted from the forwards to the defense and allow for everyone to fit in their roles better. Furthermore, by adding a high-end defensive prospect, there is more freedom to make trades with our defensive prospects to bring in established scoring.

If there is anything that I've learned from following the blue jackets for the last ten years, it's that high-end forwards at the top of the draft can be very hit or miss, and if we are in a position to draft a player who is close to a sure thing, then our team will be much better off.
but the diffrence is Columbus already has great defensive prospects, those teams obviously didnt
and if you want the sure thing then you take the Mackinnon

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01-29-2013, 03:32 PM
  #495
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but the diffrence is Columbus already has great defensive prospects, those teams obviously didnt
and if you want the sure thing then you take the Mackinnon
I do agree that our weakness is top line scoring prospects, and I really hope that we end up with MacKinnon or Barkov. But, who's to say that we will even be in a position to take MacKinnon? I think our team is definitely deep in the defensive prospect pool, and that's our biggest strength. MacKinnon aside, I would take Jones over one of the lesser offensive talents because it will make our team overall better. I think that at the top of the draft you select the best overall player no matter what his position is because it gives you more flexibility to build a team.

Last year, the Islanders offered us all of their draft picks to move up to get Murray. If you look at what Davidson did in St. Louis, he traded Erik Johnson who was a 1st overall pick for Chris Stewart (who was coming off a 64 point campaign in his second year) and Shattenkirk who has been a reliable defensemen for them. The best way to build a successful team is to have flexibility in what the team will look like in the short term, so that the team can get better in the long term. The goal with the upcoming draft should be to get better overall as a team no matter who is selected in the short term.

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01-29-2013, 03:39 PM
  #496
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That's all well and good, but if we're going to model ourselves after a franchise, why wouldn't we try to model ourselves after a top franchise instead of an upper-middle one?
Which team are you suggesting we model ourselves after, then? If you can name one at the top that doesn't have a legitimate top defense pair, I'll be impressed.

I seem to be getting put into a position of defending drafting Seth Jones over everyone else, which is far from where I'm at. If you read back, you will see that I'm saying "MacKinnon OR Jones" ... meaning, we take MacKinnon if given the chance, but if he's gone and it's Jones, we can't pass him up.

Those other two first round picks can be made to draft for need - at the top, if you have a top 2 pick, you take the best player on the board, and if it's not Nathan MacKinnon, that's Seth Jones.

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01-29-2013, 03:48 PM
  #497
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It takes all 5 players on the ice to support offense and defense. You continue to add the best players possible and adjust later via trade. If we're drafting in the top 5 this year, heck top 10, take the Best Player Available regardless of position. Just do your scouting and don't reach. I'm tired of Zherdev, Brule, Picard and others being "the future".

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01-29-2013, 03:53 PM
  #498
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How many championships have the Islanders had by selecting a skilled forward for the last decade, or the Oilers or the Blue Jackets? If you look at Boston when they won the cup, they had a very balanced team that had great defensemen. By having multiple top defensemen, the onus of winning can be shifted from the forwards to the defense and allow for everyone to fit in their roles better. Furthermore, by adding a high-end defensive prospect, there is more freedom to make trades with our defensive prospects to bring in established scoring.

If there is anything that I've learned from following the blue jackets for the last ten years, it's that high-end forwards at the top of the draft can be very hit or miss, and if we are in a position to draft a player who is close to a sure thing, then our team will be much better off.
But Chicago and Pittsburgh actually won something selecting a skilled forwards. Their best defensemen (Letang and Keith) were 2nd round picks. Also, none of the recent Norris trophy winners was even a top-10 pick. I remember the year when Cam Barker was the best defensemsan of his draft and now he can barely find a job.

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01-29-2013, 04:19 PM
  #499
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But Chicago and Pittsburgh actually won something selecting a skilled forwards. Their best defensemen (Letang and Keith) were 2nd round picks. Also, none of the recent Norris trophy winners was even a top-10 pick. I remember the year when Cam Barker was the best defensemsan of his draft and now he can barely find a job.
When Chicago and Pittsburgh drafted Toews, Kane, Malkin, Staal, and Crosby, they selected those players right where they were expected to be drafted. Cam Barker may have been the highest rated defensemen in his draft year, but he wasn't on the same level as Malkin or Ovechkin; there is no one in the first round in that year, selected after Malkin and Ovechkin, that have produced to a high level, besides Mike Green who was near the end of that round.

The situation I was describing above is if MacKinnon is off the board, do you select Jones or select one of the next best offensive players. Jones is right now considered to be a better prospect than MacKinnon, so I think it would be hard to pass on him for one of the next best offensive players, especially considering the volatility of prospect development.


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01-29-2013, 05:24 PM
  #500
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Which team are you suggesting we model ourselves after, then? If you can name one at the top that doesn't have a legitimate top defense pair, I'll be impressed.
I'm not suggesting that teams other than Nashville don't have a top defensive pair. I merely suggest if the goal of a franchise is to win a stanley cup, it makes little sense to model your franchise after one that hasn't ever done it before, regardless of if they have been more successful as a franchise than us or not.

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