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Old
01-31-2013, 01:50 PM
  #551
Cash for Nash
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Originally Posted by candyman82 View Post
We didn't even get a top two pick from the standings, we had to trade for it lol
Lmfao....great clarification. I stand corrected....which makes it even worse.

Seriously, our extreme suckness while consistent hasn't been bad enough most years.

As crede would say, we need to be staring down "idiot proof players" at the top of the draft board this year.

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01-31-2013, 01:54 PM
  #552
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All I can say is that I'm glad this thread no longer has to deal with the explaining, and ultimate failure to explain due to bullish ignorance, of the basic understanding of the BPA ideal. Man, that was a painful couple of weeks.

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01-31-2013, 02:02 PM
  #553
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No. No tanking. Never tanking. Tanking destroys team cohesion. Tanking screws any attempt to build chemistry and character.

Tanking is for the faithless, the honorless, and the Edmonton Oilers.
That's a Tommy McVie one-liner if I ever heard one.

Besides being a good coach, he also was known for his quick wit. When he coached the Utica Devils in the AHL, he was asked about the struggling Paul Ysebaert. McVie held an envelope to his head and said something like, "Evinrude, Commodore Perry, and Paul Ysebaert. Name a motor, a boater, and a floater."

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01-31-2013, 08:56 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
? for you.

Would MacKinnon/Barkov be NHL ready if we drafted them. Like Ryan Murray? Or more like a typical 1st rounder? Interested in your thoughts here.
To answer your question, yes, most likely.

MacKinnon, as mentioned already, would almost surely step onto the team as immediately the most talented offensive player ... much like Rick Nash did in 2002. Some can argue Ray Whitney, Geoff Sanderson, David Vyborny, etc ... but Rick Nash was the best on that roster as far as raw finishing ability. Nathan MacKinnon would probably be able to step in and score 25+ goals as a rookie, even without much help. We do have some nice pieces that we could put alongside him in my mind though, so the transition probably wouldn't be too bad for him.

Aleksander Barkov is a different type of player altogether ... I think JFW touched on it nicely. He's a bigger body, better in the neutral and defensive zones, and is generally more of a man than MacKinnon. I don't think the same offensive upside exists, but this is a guy that could step right in as a quality 2nd/3rd line center, and has huge upside if his scoring translates.

Seth Jones is in a similar situation to Barkov, in that he's already developed into a man and plays the game like an NHLer.

Really, this may be the first draft in awhile that sees the top three picks all in the NHL during the year of their draft. After those three, there may be a couple on down the line that surprise (Zadorov has a rare combination of size and skill) ...

Heading into next year, we could be in very good shape with any of these three on the roster.

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01-31-2013, 09:00 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
To answer your question, yes, most likely.

MacKinnon, as mentioned already, would almost surely step onto the team as immediately the most talented offensive player ... much like Rick Nash did in 2002. Some can argue Ray Whitney, Geoff Sanderson, David Vyborny, etc ... but Rick Nash was the best on that roster as far as raw finishing ability. Nathan MacKinnon would probably be able to step in and score 25+ goals as a rookie, even without much help. We do have some nice pieces that we could put alongside him in my mind though, so the transition probably wouldn't be too bad for him.

Aleksander Barkov is a different type of player altogether ... I think JFW touched on it nicely. He's a bigger body, better in the neutral and defensive zones, and is generally more of a man than MacKinnon. I don't think the same offensive upside exists, but this is a guy that could step right in as a quality 2nd/3rd line center, and has huge upside if his scoring translates.

Seth Jones is in a similar situation to Barkov, in that he's already developed into a man and plays the game like an NHLer.

Really, this may be the first draft in awhile that sees the top three picks all in the NHL during the year of their draft. After those three, there may be a couple on down the line that surprise (Zadorov has a rare combination of size and skill) ...

Heading into next year, we could be in very good shape with any of these three on the roster.
Thanks man...always like your posts. Very informative.

Follow up: In you opinion, is it more important to win a couple more games and not make the playoffs (again) or really pick up a sure fire franchise player in this draft. It is an interesting dilema. I'm leaning towards the latter.

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01-31-2013, 09:23 PM
  #556
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I think we will finish in the bottom 4 simply

because we are devoid of top shelf talent. I would certainly be willing to give future top picks to get more talent in this draft. Look at the Hawks which have won their first 6 games.. They run shifts of Toews Saad Hossa, Kane Sharp Bolland, we don't have a player that cracks their top 2 lines right now. Pretty sad.

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01-31-2013, 10:50 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
Thanks man...always like your posts. Very informative.

Follow up: In you opinion, is it more important to win a couple more games and not make the playoffs (again) or really pick up a sure fire franchise player in this draft. It is an interesting dilema. I'm leaning towards the latter.
Thanks for the kind words!

I'm no expert, but I can speak from a long history of watching hockey. When I first moved to Spokane 10 years ago, the hockey team here was in a downward spiral. They quickly became the league's laughing stock, their head coach was a complete moron (not even in hockey anymore), and they ended up finishing dead last two years in a row. What this meant was securing two very high draft picks (4th overall one year (expansion), 1st the next). The players taken with these picks were/are great players (notably, Ottawa defenseman Jared Cowen) ... however, it wasn't because of the high draft picks that the team became successful. A couple of years after hiring a new coach, the team showed up with a new attitude and compete level. They eeked their way into the playoffs in his second year of tenure, and won two games in the first round against one of the best, most disciplined junior teams I have ever seen (Kevin Constantine's Everett Silvertips). What happened was pretty amazing - the lessons learned from that quick playoff exit were that they needed to be in better shape, and everyone had to "buy in" to coach's system, or hit the road. The player who ended up earning the "C" showed up nearly a month early to work with the coaching staff on expectations, and the entire roster showed up in better shape and ready to go.

That year, the Spokane Chiefs went on a Cinderella run, and wound up sweeping the Memorial Cup tournament.

For me, it doesn't matter if you have a Sidney Crosby or a Wayne Gretzky on your roster. All that matters is great coaching, and a team full of guys that are willing to work together to succeed. The top line for the Chiefs that year was led by Drayson Bowman, Mitch Wahl, and captain Chris Bruton. Of the three, only Bowman has seen NHL ice, and in a limited role. The head coach of that team is now Mike Babcock's right-hand man for the second time in his career.

I love what I've seen from the Jackets so far, because while it may "screw us" out of a blue chipper such as MacKinnon or Jones, the environment that whoever we end up drafting will come into will be one that won't allow them to fail so easily. That's been the problem with this franchise since inception. I want to see this team fight and compete tooth and nail to the bitter end ... even if they don't make the playoffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGOJackets!! View Post
because we are devoid of top shelf talent. I would certainly be willing to give future top picks to get more talent in this draft. Look at the Hawks which have won their first 6 games.. They run shifts of Toews Saad Hossa, Kane Sharp Bolland, we don't have a player that cracks their top 2 lines right now. Pretty sad.
Disagree. See above

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02-01-2013, 02:09 AM
  #558
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So say LA + NYR finish top 10 in the league, what do you guys think it'll take to get another top 5 or 10 pick? I mean obviously it will dependent on the other team. But I like the idea of trading a combo of future picks + prospects + roster player?

Edit: I guess the question really is what would those players in the Draft be worth? And how much are they worth to the team your trading to?

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02-01-2013, 07:12 AM
  #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
Thanks man...always like your posts. Very informative.

Follow up: In you opinion, is it more important to win a couple more games and not make the playoffs (again) or really pick up a sure fire franchise player in this draft. It is an interesting dilema. I'm leaning towards the latter.
Playoffs? Too lazy to find the Mora clip.

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02-01-2013, 04:56 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by slightlystewpid420 View Post
So say LA + NYR finish top 10 in the league, what do you guys think it'll take to get another top 5 or 10 pick? I mean obviously it will dependent on the other team. But I like the idea of trading a combo of future picks + prospects + roster player?

Edit: I guess the question really is what would those players in the Draft be worth? And how much are they worth to the team your trading to?
We may be better suited moving up just a few spots and selecting a guy like Max Domi or Ryan Pulock, under the assumption that they are available. Both are excellent prospects, and we wouldn't give up much to move up to get them (and still likely retain the other first rounder) ... I still think Pulock could be one of the top players to come out of this draft, in spite of his falling stock.

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02-01-2013, 05:23 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by slightlystewpid420 View Post
So say LA + NYR finish top 10 in the league, what do you guys think it'll take to get another top 5 or 10 pick? I mean obviously it will dependent on the other team. But I like the idea of trading a combo of future picks + prospects + roster player?

Edit: I guess the question really is what would those players in the Draft be worth? And how much are they worth to the team your trading to?
Too much to make me want to trade for one.

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02-01-2013, 05:55 PM
  #562
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this is what discourages me from any upcoming drafts is the fact that we still have most of the guys in upper management that made alot of these decisions in our last 5 yrs of drafting reporting to john davidson.tyler wright heads this committee not any of john's people that he had in st.louis. so with that said is john going to take the info that he gets from scott howson and tyler wright and all the scouts seriously and then blames it on them when the team still sucks after yr 3 of this yrs draft and then gets a do over. and why didn't he bring in some of his people why we were on lockout i still can't believe this didn't happen.i thought when hiring him we would see some of these positions changing to some people that had better knowledge of the game seeing how important this draft is to our franchise.the only way this becomes good for us is that john handles this draft and not scott howson and it just doesn't look like it gonna happen this way with the people that still are bringing in the info for our team. seems like business as usual to me.so how much has really changed is my question to this point i myself just don't see this as a big change that will help in this yrs draft. and yes i know he wasn't going to change the nuculeus that is on the ice today but i sure thought he would have made some changes in personell that would be feeding him info on this yrs draft

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02-01-2013, 05:55 PM
  #563
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For those who like to speculate

Suppose the draft order is

#1 Jackets
#2 Edmonton

We draft Jones #1

Edmonton needing more D offers the 2nd for Ryan Murray - do you make the trade?

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02-01-2013, 05:58 PM
  #564
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Probably, although Jones-Murray would be a superstar pairing.

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02-01-2013, 06:06 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
For those who like to speculate

Suppose the draft order is

#1 Jackets
#2 Edmonton

We draft Jones #1

Edmonton needing more D offers the 2nd for Ryan Murray - do you make the trade?
how about wiz for their pick

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02-01-2013, 06:12 PM
  #566
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Since we are throwing out hypotheticals, I'll give you one where for a change karma works in our favor.

Suppose the Kings or Rangers miss the playoffs. Suppose the Jackets have the worst record in the league (I doubt it as the Flames are pretty horrible, but for the hypothetical, we'll go with it).

Now, suppose that Kings/Rangers pick wins the lottery. Jackets now draft #1 and #2. Do you take Jones AND MacKinnon, or do you instead go all offense and take the linemates MacKinnon and Drouin? Option A gives you a potential Murray/Jones pairing together with a true stud first line player. But, the Jackets have some depth on defense and their forward depth is poor. MacKinnon/Drouin instantly give you a top line for years to come.

It is a long shot, but it is exactly why I root for the Rangers and Kings to struggle and do as poorly as possible. Burke's draft of the Sedin twins has set that team for a decade even while the cast of characters around them has changed. The possibility of two top 5 picks, let alone #1 and #2 would be a huge game changer for the Jackets...if the use the picks wisely.

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02-01-2013, 06:25 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Since we are throwing out hypotheticals, I'll give you one where for a change karma works in our favor.

Suppose the Kings or Rangers miss the playoffs. Suppose the Jackets have the worst record in the league (I doubt it as the Flames are pretty horrible, but for the hypothetical, we'll go with it).

Now, suppose that Kings/Rangers pick wins the lottery. Jackets now draft #1 and #2. Do you take Jones AND MacKinnon, or do you instead go all offense and take the linemates MacKinnon and Drouin? Option A gives you a potential Murray/Jones pairing together with a true stud first line player. But, the Jackets have some depth on defense and their forward depth is poor. MacKinnon/Drouin instantly give you a top line for years to come.

It is a long shot, but it is exactly why I root for the Rangers and Kings to struggle and do as poorly as possible. Burke's draft of the Sedin twins has set that team for a decade even while the cast of characters around them has changed. The possibility of two top 5 picks, let alone #1 and #2 would be a huge game changer for the Jackets...if the use the picks wisely.
I think it depends on how Drouin finishes. If his stock continues to rise and MacKinnon is still 1 or 2 then I take the chance they are our Toews/Kane or Crosby/Malkin.

And in my hypothetical I make the trade with Edmonton.

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02-01-2013, 07:24 PM
  #568
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Since we are throwing out hypotheticals, I'll give you one where for a change karma works in our favor.

Suppose the Kings or Rangers miss the playoffs. Suppose the Jackets have the worst record in the league (I doubt it as the Flames are pretty horrible, but for the hypothetical, we'll go with it).

Now, suppose that Kings/Rangers pick wins the lottery. Jackets now draft #1 and #2. Do you take Jones AND MacKinnon, or do you instead go all offense and take the linemates MacKinnon and Drouin? Option A gives you a potential Murray/Jones pairing together with a true stud first line player. But, the Jackets have some depth on defense and their forward depth is poor. MacKinnon/Drouin instantly give you a top line for years to come.

It is a long shot, but it is exactly why I root for the Rangers and Kings to struggle and do as poorly as possible. Burke's draft of the Sedin twins has set that team for a decade even while the cast of characters around them has changed. The possibility of two top 5 picks, let alone #1 and #2 would be a huge game changer for the Jackets...if the use the picks wisely.
I would draft Jones and MacKinnon.

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02-01-2013, 08:20 PM
  #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
For those who like to speculate

Suppose the draft order is

#1 Jackets
#2 Edmonton

We draft Jones #1

Edmonton needing more D offers the 2nd for Ryan Murray - do you make the trade?
That's a tough scenario, one that hopefully won't play out. I think a lot would hinge on Ryan's injury situation, and also what the perception is of Seth Jones vs. Ryan Murray.

That being said, I can't see us taking Seth Jones ahead of Nathan MacKinnon ... landing the skilled forward is too important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Since we are throwing out hypotheticals, I'll give you one where for a change karma works in our favor.

Suppose the Kings or Rangers miss the playoffs. Suppose the Jackets have the worst record in the league (I doubt it as the Flames are pretty horrible, but for the hypothetical, we'll go with it).

Now, suppose that Kings/Rangers pick wins the lottery. Jackets now draft #1 and #2. Do you take Jones AND MacKinnon, or do you instead go all offense and take the linemates MacKinnon and Drouin? Option A gives you a potential Murray/Jones pairing together with a true stud first line player. But, the Jackets have some depth on defense and their forward depth is poor. MacKinnon/Drouin instantly give you a top line for years to come.

It is a long shot, but it is exactly why I root for the Rangers and Kings to struggle and do as poorly as possible. Burke's draft of the Sedin twins has set that team for a decade even while the cast of characters around them has changed. The possibility of two top 5 picks, let alone #1 and #2 would be a huge game changer for the Jackets...if the use the picks wisely.
I take Jones and MacKinnon. We still have another first round pick to land another forward, plus our first pick in the second round. There is some serious skill in that range of this draft, so I think we come away major winners.

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02-01-2013, 08:23 PM
  #570
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We lose our third round pick if the Rangers don't reach the Cup finals, btw. The Kings bad start isn't all that surprising since the only reason they made the playoffs last year (besides clockgate) was Quick and if he has come back down to earth...

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02-01-2013, 09:18 PM
  #571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
For those who like to speculate

Suppose the draft order is

#1 Jackets
#2 Edmonton

We draft Jones #1

Edmonton needing more D offers the 2nd for Ryan Murray - do you make the trade?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlguru View Post
how about wiz for their pick
**** id give them wiz and next year's first. That's 2 franchise players.. Completely reshaping the team. We would have 2 dmen jumping into the lineup. Aucoin disappears and wiz goes packing. Jones and Murray instantly make up for Wisnewski, and Mackinnon instantly makes an impact in our top 6. Him Atkinson Johansen Murray and Jones develop together. That makes Brassard, Johansen, Mackinnon and Jenner for our future centers. Some would argue Brassard is a bust, but some players are just late bloomers. This is his year to take over. Will he? I don't know. We're only 8 games in, anything is possible.
But then on defense we have Jones Murray Johnson Moore. 4 1st round defensemen, 3 of which went 1,2,3 respectively. On top of Erixon tyutin and Nikitin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Since we are throwing out hypotheticals, I'll give you one where for a change karma works in our favor.

Suppose the Kings or Rangers miss the playoffs. Suppose the Jackets have the worst record in the league (I doubt it as the Flames are pretty horrible, but for the hypothetical, we'll go with it).

Now, suppose that Kings/Rangers pick wins the lottery. Jackets now draft #1 and #2. Do you take Jones AND MacKinnon, or do you instead go all offense and take the linemates MacKinnon and Drouin? Option A gives you a potential Murray/Jones pairing together with a true stud first line player. But, the Jackets have some depth on defense and their forward depth is poor. MacKinnon/Drouin instantly give you a top line for years to come.

It is a long shot, but it is exactly why I root for the Rangers and Kings to struggle and do as poorly as possible. Burke's draft of the Sedin twins has set that team for a decade even while the cast of characters around them has changed. The possibility of two top 5 picks, let alone #1 and #2 would be a huge game changer for the Jackets...if the use the picks wisely.
Mackinnon and Jones or Mackinnon and Barkov. Either is a instant gme changer. Mackinnon Jones is probably the better choice though. I think Johnson Murray and Jones would make for quite the spectacle.
What we would really need to work on then us getting Mackinnon/Barkov Johansen and Jenner some wingers. More Atkinsons and voracek types. Boy do i miss seeing voracek in a jackets jersey.

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02-01-2013, 09:38 PM
  #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
For those who like to speculate

Suppose the draft order is

#1 Jackets
#2 Edmonton

We draft Jones #1

Edmonton needing more D offers the 2nd for Ryan Murray - do you make the trade?
No doubt about it

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02-01-2013, 09:45 PM
  #573
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So say the trade goes through. Basically Murray for Mackinnon. Which is deadlier Murray/Yakupov or Jones M ackinnon? Can't really compare them though seeing how Murray and Yak have RNH, Eberle, hall and gagner

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02-01-2013, 11:11 PM
  #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Since we are throwing out hypotheticals, I'll give you one where for a change karma works in our favor.

Suppose the Kings or Rangers miss the playoffs. Suppose the Jackets have the worst record in the league (I doubt it as the Flames are pretty horrible, but for the hypothetical, we'll go with it).

Now, suppose that Kings/Rangers pick wins the lottery. Jackets now draft #1 and #2. Do you take Jones AND MacKinnon, or do you instead go all offense and take the linemates MacKinnon and Drouin? Option A gives you a potential Murray/Jones pairing together with a true stud first line player. But, the Jackets have some depth on defense and their forward depth is poor. MacKinnon/Drouin instantly give you a top line for years to come.

It is a long shot, but it is exactly why I root for the Rangers and Kings to struggle and do as poorly as possible. Burke's draft of the Sedin twins has set that team for a decade even while the cast of characters around them has changed. The possibility of two top 5 picks, let alone #1 and #2 would be a huge game changer for the Jackets...if the use the picks wisely.
It's very simple: bluff like hell and cash in while moving back (thus accumulating additional picks) and taking your guys. If the CBJ have #1 and #2 but decide that Sean Monahan and Curtis Lazar are the guys to take, there could be a massive return on moving back one spot at a time and getting the right guys.

Yes, I know someone will seize on that and go, "LOL Monahan over MacKinnon", but I think my point is pretty clear.

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02-01-2013, 11:24 PM
  #575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
It's very simple: bluff like hell and cash in while moving back (thus accumulating additional picks) and taking your guys. If the CBJ have #1 and #2 but decide that Sean Monahan and Curtis Lazar are the guys to take, there could be a massive return on moving back one spot at a time and getting the right guys.

Yes, I know someone will seize on that and go, "LOL Monahan over MacKinnon", but I think my point is pretty clear.
And the slightly less underinformed reply would be "so, how is Calvin de Haan doing, anyways?"

I do get the point; I'm just reasonably confident that "the guys to take" would probably still be MacK and Jones. Especially since we already still have the additional 1st with which to play around.

(For the record: last I checked he's not doing so great as compared to Luke Schenn and Colin Wilson.)
(Also for the record: I'm aware that that's still not the point. It's a perfectly reasonable strategy IF your scouting is up to par. One example does not a counterproof make. That said, it's not exactly my personal favorite strategy, despite my loathing of One True Saviors.)

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