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Old
02-15-2013, 02:36 PM
  #676
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
It's all about Canada isn't it...
That too.

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Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
I wanna them to be faithless for a couple month and then to start winning decency and respect with MacKinnon for the next decade.
Tanking - or even the perception of tanking - Does Not Earn You Respect. Just ask Pittsburgh fans.

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02-15-2013, 02:56 PM
  #677
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You care too much about respect. Winning is all that matters and respect usually comes with that anyway.

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02-15-2013, 03:05 PM
  #678
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Losing begets...


... Losers.

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Old
02-15-2013, 04:30 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by ThisIsMyAlibi View Post
You care too much about respect. Winning is all that matters and respect usually comes with that anyway.
...well, then, I suppose it's good you don't care overmuch about respect, because with that position you've certainly lost mine.

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02-15-2013, 04:49 PM
  #680
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No offense Viqsi, but what team hasn't tanked? Players and coaches haven't and never will intentionally play badly in order to get an unproven player, but every organization that thinks they are out of the playoffs at the trade deadline tries to tank. Why else would they trade away players for prospects?

For me at least there is a difference between not playing hard and tanking. I want the foundation of this team to play hard every game, but at the same time I want management to man up and make the hard choice that our front office has been unable to make for the history of this franchise, I want them to tank. JD and Jarmo should send every shred of talent that isn't part of the foundation of this team out the door and ensure that we have a high pick and this rebuild is as short as possible.

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02-15-2013, 04:56 PM
  #681
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Look at Calgary. They never make playoffs except that cinderella run with Commodore on the roster. And they never get top-5 picks. Probably they cared about respect too much and now their future isn't looking any bright. With all the respect to them.

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02-15-2013, 05:05 PM
  #682
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No offense Viqsi, but what team hasn't tanked? Players and coaches haven't and never will intentionally play badly in order to get an unproven player, but every organization that thinks they are out of the playoffs at the trade deadline tries to tank. Why else would they trade away players for prospects?

For me at least there is a difference between not playing hard and tanking. I want the foundation of this team to play hard every game, but at the same time I want management to man up and make the hard choice that our front office has been unable to make for the history of this franchise, I want them to tank. JD and Jarmo should send every shred of talent that isn't part of the foundation of this team out the door and ensure that we have a high pick and this rebuild is as short as possible.
Man-up? There is nothing manly about tanking.

There will be trades and there will players that are not a part of plan going forward. That much has been made very apparent. The team will re-shape, re-tool, rebuild call it whatever you want, but there is nothing more despicable than losing on purpose.

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02-15-2013, 05:09 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by ThisIsMyAlibi View Post
You care too much about respect. Winning is all that matters and respect usually comes with that anyway.
Winning without honor is meaningless. Consider:

Pittsburgh sucked for five straight years and picked #5, #1, #2, #1, #2. When they won a Cup, did anyone respect them? Does anyone today call them "a quality organization"? They may actually be one, but no one outside of Pittsburgh seems to think so.

The New England Patriots engaged in cheating significant enough to cost them draft picks and heavy fines. They won three Super Bowls while it was going on, and nothing since. Does anyone outside of New England (except the Tom Brady-loving media) really respect them or their organization?

The Florida Marlins bought up a bunch of free agents in 1997, won a World Series, then promptly dismantled the team. Does anyone respect that?

The New York Yankees, for most of the last 20 years, have attempted to corner the market on MLB talent by buying it all. When they win, does anyone actually respect the organization? Their success seems to be all-but-inevitable.

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02-15-2013, 05:14 PM
  #684
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For example trade Brass, trade RJ, trade whoever if it can improve your team long term. Bring up your youth take a look, fine.

But you cannot put your best remaining players on a bogus IR, or stints in the press box, just for the purpose of increasing your chances of losing and thus you standing for a draft pic you covet.

That is the antithesis of sport.

You play to win the game.

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02-15-2013, 05:25 PM
  #685
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There is a significant difference between losing on purpose (which I don't think anyone here is advocating) and doing what is right to build a franchise for the future by cutting deadwood and playing younger players for experience while gaining additional picks and prospects.

Some here have their holier than thou attitudes so engaged that thye fail to see the difference.

And I am a Yankee fan and couldn't care less if other fans don't respect the Yankees. i am also a Jackets fan and am pi**ed off that they are still at square one 13 years into their existence. And I'm not the least bit impressed if any fans (ours or others) respect us for sucking.

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02-15-2013, 05:54 PM
  #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Winning without honor is meaningless. Consider:

Pittsburgh sucked for five straight years and picked #5, #1, #2, #1, #2. When they won a Cup, did anyone respect them? Does anyone today call them "a quality organization"? They may actually be one, but no one outside of Pittsburgh seems to think so.

The New England Patriots engaged in cheating significant enough to cost them draft picks and heavy fines. They won three Super Bowls while it was going on, and nothing since. Does anyone outside of New England (except the Tom Brady-loving media) really respect them or their organization?

The Florida Marlins bought up a bunch of free agents in 1997, won a World Series, then promptly dismantled the team. Does anyone respect that?

The New York Yankees, for most of the last 20 years, have attempted to corner the market on MLB talent by buying it all. When they win, does anyone actually respect the organization? Their success seems to be all-but-inevitable.
So, who exactly does anyone respect when they win? Can't respect the Ravens because they've got a murderer on their team. Can't respect the Heat because they have Lebron. On and on it goes.

Listen, when you are #1 people find any reason to try and take you down a peg and to make your victory less than what it was. It is the nature of sports fans. The only people that really get to enjoy it when their team wins are the teams fans. There are exceptions every now and then (ex. I think most sports fans were happy to see Ray Bourque win with the Avs and people still talk about Willis Reed all these years later), but they are few and far between.

With that in mind, I could care less what a fan of another team thinks. I got news for you, even if this team sucks of its own accord, if we get the #1 pick a year out from having the #2 people are going to say we tanked when we get better. They'll point to some game in the last week of the season and they'll have a giant conspiracy theory about how we threw the game even if there is no basis to it.

Beyond that, Jarmo and JD should be bringing up every guy that is close to NHL ready to give them their cup of coffee and try them out to see if they are going to be part of the plan moving forward or not. That is the best use of this season. If we win with that as a priority, we win. If we don't, I'm not going to cry about it just because some fan of some other team might have a sad about it.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't swell with pride the seasons we plodded along and drafted in the 4th-7th slot. And the rest of the hockey world didn't talk endlessly about how we played with such honor--they mocked us and ridiculed us and they will until we do what is needed to build a team with the talent to win.

Losing with dignity never instills a winning culture. Only winning does that. If the opposite were true, wouldn't the New York Islanders or Florida Panthers be Stanley Cup Champions by now? Yet the Pittsburgh Penguins and Chicago Blackhawks DID win Cups. And no amount of us carping about them "tanking" takes their name off of Lord Stanley's Cup.

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02-15-2013, 05:56 PM
  #687
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It's down to the last five games, three teams are "neck and neck" for the first overall, and everybody plays everybody once more. If you lose all five bingo you're it. Win them and you avoid "the basement".

Here's the deal, yo uget to decide, what do you do?

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02-15-2013, 05:58 PM
  #688
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ISS has put Nichuskin as #2 above MacKinnon now. That's borderline crazy, but Nichuskin absolutely destroyed the competition at the 5 Nations U18 tournament last week.

Jarmo drafted Tarasenko in St Louis and that was a major steal at 16th overall. With three 1st rounders, does Jarmo now increase the chance the Jackets grab Nichuskin if he drops?

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:11 PM
  #689
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
And I'm not the least bit impressed if any fans (ours or others) respect us for sucking.
Pretty hard to be respected as an organization when alltime win percentage is .377%

And alltime goal differential is -535.

Chalk me up as giving the youngsters a good look after the deadline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ackets_seasons

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02-15-2013, 06:25 PM
  #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't swell with pride the seasons we plodded along and drafted in the 4th-7th slot. And the rest of the hockey world didn't talk endlessly about how we played with such honor--they mocked us and ridiculed us and they will until we do what is needed to build a team with the talent to win.
It's not about now. It's about then.

I don't care about those lowlifes. I care about folks watching us do things the right way, and not giving them easy excuses.

If there's a choice, I'd rather be Detroit than Pittsburgh - or worse, New Jersey.

If things do go our way, I'd rather the narrative be one of "they did it the right way" with the occasional excuse (say, "but they've got X player we hate"), rather than "they found a cheat" (such as Pittsburgh "tanking" or New Jersey "trapping"). The former is jealousy. The latter is eternal damnation.

I don't mind giving youngsters cups of coffee in the NHL. But **** tanking. If we've got to pull that lowlife crap to win, it's not worth it. Might as well be bribing refs at that point.

The award is lessened if the journey there was by a shortcut. That's why we look down on "bandwagon" fans to begin with.

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02-15-2013, 06:28 PM
  #691
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...that said, this is a much nicer thing to argue about than "who sucks today".

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02-15-2013, 06:42 PM
  #692
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So, who exactly does anyone respect when they win? Can't respect the Ravens because they've got a murderer on their team. Can't respect the Heat because they have Lebron. On and on it goes.
The Heat are a good one for the same reason as the Yankees.

With the Ravens, there's certainly a grudging respect (even if someone intensely dislikes Ray Lewis); same as the Steelers, Red Wings, or any other team like that.

Quote:
I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't swell with pride the seasons we plodded along and drafted in the 4th-7th slot. And the rest of the hockey world didn't talk endlessly about how we played with such honor--they mocked us and ridiculed us and they will until we do what is needed to build a team with the talent to win.
...and as a Browns fan, I'm certainly aware of the constant wheel-spinning that accompanies every year playing just well enough to avoid the franchise players in the draft, then patting themselves on the back about "sending a message" and "not giving up".

I'm only saying that ending up at the bottom in the manner that Pittsburgh and Washington did, by having goalies out there like Andy Chiodo and Rastislav Stana while telling everyone that Joel Kwiatkowski is worthy of a full season in the NHL...yeah. It was stacking the deck.

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02-15-2013, 07:01 PM
  #693
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http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/...vLYF?year=2003

This is Zherdev's game log from 2003-04 season. I remember that year pretty well. At the end of the season Columbus was at the very bottom, but suddenly decided to play with pride and went on 4 games winning streak. The Hawks, Pens and Caps kept losing and the Jackets bypassed all of them by 3-4 points.
Let me ask you a question now, 9 years later. What would you rather have: all the respect the Jackets earned by winning those 4 games in a row and Alexandre Picard or Malkin/Ovechkin on the roster for the past 9 years?

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02-15-2013, 07:18 PM
  #694
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I'm only saying that ending up at the bottom in the manner that Pittsburgh and Washington did, by having goalies out there like Andy Chiodo and Rastislav Stana while telling everyone that Joel Kwiatkowski is worthy of a full season in the NHL...yeah. It was stacking the deck.
I believe Stana is Russian for "Bricklayer" or something like that.

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02-15-2013, 07:26 PM
  #695
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I believe Stana is Russian for "Bricklayer" or something like that.
He treated every shot like it was a fired howitzer shell, so...

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02-15-2013, 07:32 PM
  #696
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Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/...vLYF?year=2003

This is Zherdev's game log from 2003-04 season. I remember that year pretty well. At the end of the season Columbus was at the very bottom, but suddenly decided to play with pride and went on 4 games winning streak. The Hawks, Pens and Caps kept losing and the Jackets bypassed all of them by 3-4 points.
Let me ask you a question now, 9 years later. What would you rather have: all the respect the Jackets earned by winning those 4 games in a row and Alexandre Picard or Malkin/Ovechkin on the roster for the past 9 years?
I had honestly forgotten how close we were to being in the chase for the #1 pick that year in what was a very weak draft overall.

It is really depressing to go back year-by-year and look at how close we came to getting top talent always to just miss. It also becomes clear that for most of the team's history there was never a commitment to (re-)build through the draft. People talked about it, but they never followed through.


Last edited by CapnCornelius: 02-15-2013 at 07:41 PM.
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02-15-2013, 07:48 PM
  #697
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I had honestly forgotten how close we were to being in the chase for the #1 pick that year in what was a very weak draft overall.

It is really depressing to go back year-by-year and look at how close we came to getting top talent always to just miss. It also becomes clear that for most of the team's history there was never a commitment to (re-)build through the draft. People talked about it, but they never followed through.
Yup. Klesla instead of Gaborik or Heatley. Leclaire instead of Koivu, Weiss, Spezza, or Kovalchuk. Zherdev instead of Staal. Picard instead of Malkin or Ovechkin. Brule instead of Crosby or Ryan. Brassard instead of Staal, Kessel, Toews, or Backstrom. Voracek instead of Kane. Filatov instead of Pietrangelo, Doughty, or Stamkos. Johansen instead of Seguin.

Of course, the 2000-06 drafts are also laced with "could've taken this guy who went right after the pick" as well...

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02-15-2013, 08:54 PM
  #698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzz View Post
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/...vLYF?year=2003

This is Zherdev's game log from 2003-04 season. I remember that year pretty well. At the end of the season Columbus was at the very bottom, but suddenly decided to play with pride and went on 4 games winning streak. The Hawks, Pens and Caps kept losing and the Jackets bypassed all of them by 3-4 points.
Let me ask you a question now, 9 years later. What would you rather have: all the respect the Jackets earned by winning those 4 games in a row and Alexandre Picard or Malkin/Ovechkin on the roster for the past 9 years?
I'd rather watch games be competed for and won.

There is nothing you or anyone else can say that will convince me that tanking is anything other than despicable and wrong.

And the point that keeps evading you: it's not about "we have respect now and we don't want to lose it". That's ludicrous. We have zero respect now. But we're now trying to GAIN it, and you're not going to GAIN it if you try to get there via cheapass shortcuts that everybody despises.

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02-15-2013, 09:12 PM
  #699
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Losing begets...


... Losers.
Very true, however, there is a difference between competitive losers and just plain losers. This team is showing a competitive will, even if they come up on the short end on most nights. I like the battle-ready attitude, but I certainly won't cry over a high draft pick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacketsFanWest View Post
ISS has put Nichuskin as #2 above MacKinnon now. That's borderline crazy, but Nichuskin absolutely destroyed the competition at the 5 Nations U18 tournament last week.

Jarmo drafted Tarasenko in St Louis and that was a major steal at 16th overall. With three 1st rounders, does Jarmo now increase the chance the Jackets grab Nichuskin if he drops?
Very much a possibility, JFW. Will be interesting to see how the Nichuskin situation plays out in June. If we're picking in the 12ish-20ish range and have the chance to take Nichuskin (with our second/third first rounder), then I think Jarmo absolutely takes that chance.

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02-15-2013, 09:22 PM
  #700
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Very true, however, there is a difference between competitive losers and just plain losers. This team is showing a competitive will, even if they come up on the short end on most nights. I like the battle-ready attitude, but I certainly won't cry over a high draft pick.

My objection is to the point of view that the draft choice is the goal not the result.

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