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Is the D underrated?

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Old
08-09-2012, 01:49 PM
  #26
thestonedkoala
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All of our defense was placed in a position that was one level too high. I mean hell Scandella had like a 30 minute game...And he looked pretty good. As much as I rag on him, Scandella is a solid top 4 defenseman. Just needs to grow.

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08-09-2012, 01:52 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillhouse99 View Post
Thanks man I'll check that out.
Here's Edmonton's chart, too. Both Schultz and Gilbert were being used in similar rolls when they were in Edmonton & Minnesota - with similar results.



Last edited by Minnesota: 08-09-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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Old
08-09-2012, 02:40 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota View Post

Holy crap that chart is outstanding.

Pretty much everyone in blue and with small white circles are guys I liked while the larger white circles typically I dislike.

I'd have to agree with that chart quite a bit.

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08-09-2012, 02:44 PM
  #29
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In a word, no.

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08-09-2012, 02:57 PM
  #30
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In a word, no.
Good point.. I'm convinced!

Jk. I do think they are a bit underrated. Especially when you consider the fact that goaltending is basically an extension of defense and we have a great goalie tandem. I just don't see how a team goes from 13th in goals against to anything lower than that the following year when they retain everyone AND bring in Suter and Gilbert full time. And you can't say that we were only 13th because we played a defensive system. As Jarick said in the main boards, it's actually the opposite. Guys were thrust into different roles than they are suited for and as a result we were scoring less so we actually opened up the offensive play a little bit. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Wild top 10 in goals against this year.

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Old
08-09-2012, 03:05 PM
  #31
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I can't really blame other fans for calling our D suspect. Outside of Gilbert and Suter there isn't any household names. Hopefully that works to our advantage when people say "Who the hell is Spurgeon and how does he have 30 pts this year?"

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Old
08-09-2012, 03:39 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
LOL. Only in Minnesota Wild land is calling something "average" considered "cheerleading".

Sorry, but it's more ridiculous to yell "we suck" because you want to play it safe and hedge your bets. If we lose, then you can claim you were right. And if we win, then you can say that you were pleasantly surprised.
What? No, i've been saying it sucks for a few years now...this isn't some sort of bizarre bet or anything. Suter more than makes up for the recent-ish low point of losing burns so we're just a teensy bit better if everyone plays the same they did last year.

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Old
08-09-2012, 03:43 PM
  #33
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the bubble chart doc is really revealing. if i remember correctly it stated Brodziak came into his own as a top line forward.

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Old
08-09-2012, 03:49 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota View Post
Specifically when Gilbert was with the Wild.

Basing my opinion on this:

(Plus, my own opinion from watching both Schultz and Gilbert play)

Key: Blue circles are good, white circles are bad; they reflect shots on goal (for=blue and against=white) when the player was on the ice. As you can see, Schultz is a medium-sized white circle while Gilbert is a medium-sized blue circle (albeit with smaller sample size). This explains player position on the chart; Gilbert was somewhere in-between a "Shut-down" and "Two-way" Dman, which is good. Schultz was mainly used in a "Shut-down" roll, which is fine; however, Gilbert shouldered tougher defensive responsibilities while still producing offense.





Feel free to check the attached Player Usage Charts (2011-12).
Interesting to see Wellman's circle so big and blue.

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Old
08-09-2012, 04:03 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILDhockeyfan View Post
I can't really blame other fans for calling our D suspect. Outside of Gilbert and Suter there isn't any household names. Hopefully that works to our advantage when people say "Who the hell is Spurgeon and how does he have 30 pts this year?"
Hopefully him not being able to clear the front of the net doesn't diminish that 30 points if he gets it by a negative +/-.

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08-09-2012, 04:39 PM
  #36
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Well, if the rest of the league's fans think our D is "bottom 5" after adding Suter, then yeah, they're underrated. As Yeo said, we defended well, we just spent way too much time doing it.

Part of that is on the forwards (and injuries to them), but part of that is on the d-men not being able to clear the zone in a controlled yet aggressive way to get the forwards into the offense in such a fashion where they can pin the bad guys in their own end for signficant lengths of time.

Frankly, for my money, before he got injured, Lats was often the most effective guy on the team in transitioning the boys from defense to offense. And he's not exactly known for that kind of thing over his career --but he was doing it at the beginning of last year, presumably because he was one of the few who could.

Tho, come to think of it, it was also clear his hip/groin still wasn't 100%, so he may have been more focused on his passing than he would have been if the wheels were 100%.


Last edited by geowild: 08-09-2012 at 04:53 PM.
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Old
08-09-2012, 05:03 PM
  #37
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As I said, the only thing we are missing is a true #2 Dman. Let's look at the other teams. It's pretty clear that 75% of teams need another top pairing Dmen, and only 2 are probably 100% statisfied.

Teams that could use at least 1 more top-pairing (#1 or #2) Dman:
Nucks
Calgary
Colorado
Oilers
Anaheim
Dallas
Columbus
Detroit
Nashville
Winnipeg
St. Louis
Toronto
Pens
Buffalo
Ottawa
Canadians
Islanders
Flyers
Hurricanes
Florida
Tampa


Teams that could use another top-4 Dman
Hawks
SJ
Phoenix
Capitals
Boston

Teams that have bluelines that are probably set
Rangers
Kings

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Old
08-09-2012, 05:18 PM
  #38
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that chart makes me regret Lundin being on the IR all season...

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Old
08-09-2012, 05:18 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by this providence View Post
Ya, and how many of these games are you watching from TV?

Believe me, I'm not just pulling this out of mid air. There's a reason why I soured on him. Run into any of the hometown scouts and they'd tell you the same thing about Schultz's game...
Hey TP,

I dont think that this is first time you've mentioned these 'hometown' scouts. I am also guessing that your opinions on some of these players are influenced, maybe heavily, by them. Is this also where you get your opinion on Scandella?

Just curious because I strongly disagree with much of what you say about the kid and am wondering what some folks within the scouting world/Wild Org think.

Anyways, I think don't think that we can understated how ****ing lucky we are to have suter with us now. He should bring alot of stability to a young, young D-core. He probably increases Scandella chance of success by 100.

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Old
08-09-2012, 05:46 PM
  #40
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The big complaints I see from Scandella are all about consistency. Nobody is say he sucked all year because there were many games that he was awesome.

When he has an entire year of suck ala Barker, then Scandella can get the hook.

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Old
08-09-2012, 05:53 PM
  #41
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Scouts love Scandella because at 22 he's mostly all upside at this point as all the tools are there. The Wild organization is extremely high on him, to a fault; I believe. At some point he's got to put everything he's got going for himself into the entire package for a significant stretch and look the part of the player many think he's going to be before I buy in.

There's a bit of a difference between how Pro Player scouts evaluate "prospects" playing in the NHL in comparison between established players. At a certain point players settle into what they are. And most all never amount to the promise that many originally thought they had (coincidentally, Schultz falls into that category as he's the same player, more or less, as he was when he came into the league).

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Old
08-09-2012, 06:13 PM
  #42
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this incarnation of Wild management is less enamored of Scandella than the last one. I suppose that's only natural as they aren't responsible for picking him. He's definitely not a toss-out or a guy I wouldn't mind seeing gone like some of our other defensemen. Maybe he's just not that adaptable...keep the team relatively stable and maybe he'll sink into a nice groove and find that consistency. I just don't see that he showed as much potential as most people seemed to think he showed last year. Had a few great games, but so did Falk. Falk looked more offensively gifted to me.

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Old
08-09-2012, 09:56 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
When you look at our blueline, it's clear we are missing one piece, a #2 Dman. Honestly, that's pretty common. Hell, many teams are missing a #1.

#1 - All-around, every situation Dman = Suter
#2 - Minute munching workhorse = Missing
#3 - Jack-of-all trades Dman = Gilbert
#4 - Puck-mover, PP guy = Spurgeon
#5 - All-around Dman who can step-up into a higher role when there are injuries = Scandella
#6 - Physical Defensive Dman = Stoner
#7/#8 - Guys who can sit in the press-box and be slotted in for injuries = Falk/Prosser

I still think when Scandella is on top of his game (prior to his meltdown mid last season) He can and probably will be that #2 defenseman you speak of

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Old
08-09-2012, 10:13 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Beegoalie View Post
I still think when Scandella is on top of his game (prior to his meltdown mid last season) He can and probably will be that #2 defenseman you speak of
And if he can't, then Brodin can be within the year, by my estimation.

That means less pressure on everyone, and lets them all slot down.

Then you figure in whenever Dumba is ready to take a top-4 roll and hopefully be a PP beast... We've got a lot of unknowns, but we're not in anywhere near as bad shape as most other fanbases make it sound.

I really think that's the answer to this question. Underrated? probably not. Unknown? Absolutely. Heck, I don't think anyone knows exactly how good or bad the current D can be. We've got a potential gap, but we've got a lot of potential.

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Old
08-09-2012, 11:03 PM
  #45
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No, it's average at best.. Somewhat unproven.

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Old
08-09-2012, 11:41 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
As I said, the only thing we are missing is a true #2 Dman. Let's look at the other teams. It's pretty clear that 75% of teams need another top pairing Dmen, and only 2 are probably 100% statisfied.

Teams that could use at least 1 more top-pairing (#1 or #2) Dman:
Nucks
Calgary
Colorado
Oilers
Anaheim
Dallas
Columbus
Detroit
Nashville
Winnipeg
St. Louis
Toronto
Pens
Buffalo
Ottawa
Canadians
Islanders
Flyers
Hurricanes
Florida
Tampa


Teams that could use another top-4 Dman
Hawks
SJ
Phoenix
Capitals
Boston

Teams that have bluelines that are probably set
Rangers
Kings
For my money, we've got a credible #2 d-man. His name is Gilbert. We just can't afford to play him there given the current roster. What we're really missing is a credible, experienced mentor-like NHL 3-4, so Gibby can go to top line until Brodin is ready to be "that guy". Keith Carney, your service is calling. . . .


Last edited by geowild: 08-09-2012 at 11:49 PM.
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Old
08-10-2012, 10:19 AM
  #47
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I think Dumba is 4 years off from being an impact player. He'll be a good one, but he needs time like Burns.

Brodin I'm thinking could step into the top-4 next season. But I guess we would have a very soft top-4 in Spurgeon, Brodin, and Spurgeon.

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Old
08-10-2012, 10:27 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
I think Dumba is 4 years off from being an impact player. He'll be a good one, but he needs time like Burns.

Brodin I'm thinking could step into the top-4 next season. But I guess we would have a very soft top-4 in Spurgeon, Brodin, and Spurgeon.
Of course it'll be soft if we have two Spurgeons in there

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Old
08-10-2012, 10:41 AM
  #49
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Of course it'll be soft if we have two Spurgeons in there
LOl. I meant Gilbert.

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Old
08-10-2012, 10:53 AM
  #50
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And you can't say that we were only 13th because we played a defensive system.
That's exactly what I'd say about the goals against number/ranking last year. It was achieved at the expense of offense/goals for.

IMO the Wild's defenseman as a group were terrible last year. I'd argue that the poor offensive production was due in large part to the weak D play. Our defenseman couldn't get the puck out of the Wild's end so the Forwards spent way too much time battling in our own end.

The Wild's D as a whole were also terrible on offense; poor starting the rush and poor in support when the team was attacking.

This year Suter will drastically change that. A full year of Gilbert will help. Scandella is going to keep getting better as he gains experience and continues to get stronger. Compared to last year, our D corps will be much better and higher rated, the addition of Suter is huge.


Last edited by Wildfish: 08-10-2012 at 10:59 AM.
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