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Suppose Brodeur, Jagr, Selanne and Pronger all retire in the same year...

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Old
12-06-2012, 05:48 PM
  #1
MastuhNinks
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Suppose Brodeur, Jagr, Selanne and Pronger all retire in the same year...

Would their eventual Hall of Fame class be the best of all time? Does any other Hall of Fame class even come close?

I'm not aware of which classes are generally considered the best... 1983 is pretty good with Dryden, Hull and Mikita but even that doesn't really rival the group of 4 listed above.

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12-06-2012, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Would their eventual Hall of Fame class be the best of all time? Does any other Hall of Fame class even come close?

I'm not aware of which classes are generally considered the best... 1983 is pretty good with Dryden, Hull and Mikita but even that doesn't really rival the group of 4 listed above.
What about the year they inducted Bossy, Potvin, Bowman and Pulford? Or Plante, Bathgate and Pronovost? And probably the best year to date, Howe and Beliveau got inducted at the same time together with Geoffrion, Hooley smith and Hap Holmes.

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12-06-2012, 06:00 PM
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2007 had Messier, Stevens, MacInnis and Francis. That might be the closest. Messier is more or less where Jagr is but I don't think the 2nd best in that group (MacInnis?) is at Brodeur's level. Stevens is close to Pronger but Francis is a notch below Selanne. Wow! What a draft class. 2009 was pretty good too. Yzerman, Leetch, Hull, Robitaille. Actually.............Leetch is rather close to Pronger. Hull is at least with Selanne. Yzerman is a notch below Jagr though and Robitaille is definitely below Brodeur.

It could be a great class. I hope it isn't because they all have some hockey left in them and I'd hate to know that Donald Fehr and Gary Bettman are the reason we never saw these guys again.

As for all-time best induction class? It has to be 1972:

Howe
Beliveau
Geoffrion
Hap Holmes
Hooley Smith

Honestly, does it get much better than that?

Well...........1961 is my pick as the best but it's a bit of a technicality. You've got far more than the normal 4 that got inducted simply because there was a backlog to induct past players. Just look at those names though.

So with the new rules and the maximum picks, I'd still say 1972

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12-06-2012, 06:01 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Messier = Jagr
MacInnis < Brodeur
Stevens = Pronger
Francis = Selanne

Yeah, yeah, you can argue Jagr over Messier or Selanne over Francis, or whatever. But they are fairly close. I think Brodeur over either MacInnis or Stevens makes this class even better than the class of 2007.

Edit: Yeah, what Phil said.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-06-2012 at 06:15 PM. Reason: < not >
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12-06-2012, 06:05 PM
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Pronger's contract doesn't come off the books till he's 42. Until then he'll likely be sitting on the long term injury reserve collecting his cheques.

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12-06-2012, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Messier = Jagr
MacInnis > Brodeur
Stevens = Pronger
Francis = Selanne

Yeah, yeah, you can argue Jagr over Messier or Selanne over Francis, or whatever. But they are fairly close. I think Brodeur over either MacInnis or Stevens makes this class even better than the class of 2007.

Edit: Yeah, what Phil said.
You have MacInnis over Brodeur?

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12-06-2012, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Messier = Jagr
MacInnis > Brodeur
Stevens = Pronger
Francis = Selanne

Yeah, yeah, you can argue Jagr over Messier or Selanne over Francis, or whatever. But they are fairly close. I think Brodeur over either MacInnis or Stevens makes this class even better than the class of 2007.

Edit: Yeah, what Phil said.
I agree with you but was that a typo to put MacInnis ahead of Brodeur? Nothing against Big Al at all, but Brodeur would be on my top 5 goalies list and since you're a Devils fan I don't think I need to tell you about Martin Brodeur.

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12-06-2012, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
You have MacInnis over Brodeur?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I agree with you but was that a typo to put MacInnis ahead of Brodeur? Nothing against Big Al at all, but Brodeur would be on my top 5 goalies list and since you're a Devils fan I don't think I need to tell you about Martin Brodeur.
Yes, typo. I even said Brodeur over either MacInnis or Stevens is the difference between the classes in the sentence below.

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12-06-2012, 06:29 PM
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Pronger's contract doesn't come off the books till he's 42. Until then he'll likely be sitting on the long term injury reserve collecting his cheques.
I'm 100% sure that knowing Pronger, this will be the case barring some new CBA stuff. He "officially" retires in 2017 probably. So I'd take him out of this. Let's go with Jagr, Selanne, Brodeur, and then a 4th....Alfredsson might be eligible if they all retire together. Or I'm guessing that one of Kariya, Fleury, Makarov, etc will still not be inducted for whatever reason and possibly nominated then.

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12-06-2012, 07:07 PM
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Yes, typo. I even said Brodeur over either MacInnis or Stevens is the difference between the classes in the sentence below.
Or Fruedian slip?

I understand.

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12-07-2012, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Actually.............Leetch is rather close to Pronger.
Pronger has a Hart and a better (and longer) prime. He's notably above Leetch.

Quote:
Hull is at least with Selanne.
Sounds about right.

Quote:
Yzerman is a notch below Jagr though
Yzerman is at least equal. Without Lemieux and Gretzky around, Yzerman would have dominated his era far above the others in the same way Jagr dominated his. Detroit likely see the Finals in both 87 and 88. Yzerman wins the 89 Hart, possibly more.

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Robitaille is definitely below Brodeur.
Duh.

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12-07-2012, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post







Yzerman is at least equal. Without Lemieux and Gretzky around, Yzerman would have dominated his era far above the others in the same way Jagr dominated his. Detroit likely see the Finals in both 87 and 88. Yzerman wins the 89 Hart, possibly more.


I would say Jagr is a notch above Yzerman and I would even say that it is pretty clear. The distance between these two is not miles but it is clear distance.

I think the offensive output Jagr gave outweighs the overall play Yzerman provided. Adjusted scoring syas the difference between Steve and Jaromir is pretty clear.

Steve Y:

Adjusted PPG is 1.09
He has finished top-10 in scoring for 6 times. 3, 3, 4, 7, 7 and 10.

Best offensive seasons (adj.):
128 points
111 points
106 points

Jaromir J:

Ajusted PPG is 1.30
He has finished top-10 in scoring for 11 times. 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 6, 6 and 9

Best offensive seasons (adj.):
145 points
144 points
131 points
121 points
120 points
117 points
105 points

I can't imagine there would be enough defence to go around for justifying Steve over Jaromir.

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12-07-2012, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Yzerman is at least equal. Without Lemieux and Gretzky around, Yzerman would have dominated his era far above the others in the same way Jagr dominated his. Detroit likely see the Finals in both 87 and 88. Yzerman wins the 89 Hart, possibly more.
No, he's not. Even if we give him credit for reinventing himself he didnt dominate the way Jagr did. Even if we remove Gretzky and Lemieux, Yzerman still end up with only two 1st places in scoring. Jagr has five and a second place to Lemieux and another second place in '06. Jagr is definitly a notch above Yzerman because his offensive output outweighs Yzermans defensive abillities.

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12-07-2012, 07:32 AM
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No, he's not. Even if we give him credit for reinventing himself he didnt dominate the way Jagr did. Even if we remove Gretzky and Lemieux, Yzerman still end up with only two 1st places in scoring. Jagr has five and a second place to Lemieux and another second place in '06. Jagr is definitly a notch above Yzerman because his offensive output outweighs Yzermans defensive abillities.
I only see one 1st place finish: 88/89. In 89/90 he'd still finish behind Messier. But otherwise I completely agree with you.

Statements like "Without Lemieux and Gretzky around, Yzerman would have dominated his era far above the others in the same way Jagr dominated his" are one of the most persistent myths out there, but the data doesn't support it. It really only applies to one season, and somehow that season get's extrapolated outwards.

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12-07-2012, 12:52 PM
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That would be a great Hall of Fame class should all 4 get inducted at the same time. The 1983 class is the only 1 that could be called better.

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12-07-2012, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Pronger has a Hart and a better (and longer) prime. He's notably above Leetch.
You really believe so? The knock on Pronger is that he's wasted so many seasons with injuries. Leetch didn't really have that although I will give Pronger the advantage of aging better. Leetch has a playoff that is arguably better than any we have seen from a defenseman - perhaps other than Orr. He was consistently a great defenseman in the 1990s and two Norris Trophies split 5 years apart corroborate this.

Pronger can certainly be mentioned with Leetch but sometimes we give him too much credit just because he "should" have been Larry Robinson without the injuries. If you want to give Pronger the edge then that's fine but it isn't a cakewalk.

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12-07-2012, 07:37 PM
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What a great crop of players all of whom did so much for the NHL

Jagr and Sel, did so much for the next wave of Euro players

Brodeur: basically has set a standard for supreme longevity in net, setting records for games, wins, shutouts. Even got 4 assists in last years playoffs!

Pronger: Big solid and mobile defencemen who helped 3 different teams reach the SCF

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12-07-2012, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I only see one 1st place finish: 88/89. In 89/90 he'd still finish behind Messier. But otherwise I completely agree with you.

Statements like "Without Lemieux and Gretzky around, Yzerman would have dominated his era far above the others in the same way Jagr dominated his" are one of the most persistent myths out there, but the data doesn't support it. It really only applies to one season, and somehow that season get's extrapolated outwards.
Yzerman, during his prime (87-88 through 92-93) posted a PPG of 1.55, which is 127 points per 82 games. Adam Oates and Pat LaFontaine both posted 1.37, which would be 112. A 13% lead. For Jagr, from 1993-94 to 2000-01, Jagr posted 1.49 PPG. Eric Lindros posted 1.37, and Sakic posted 1.27.

Seems to be comparable domination offensively. And that doesn't even account for the fact that "offensive prime Yzerman" was far better defensively than any incarnation of Jagr.

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12-08-2012, 12:11 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I would say Jagr is a notch above Yzerman and I would even say that it is pretty clear. The distance between these two is not miles but it is clear distance.

I think the offensive output Jagr gave outweighs the overall play Yzerman provided. Adjusted scoring syas the difference between Steve and Jaromir is pretty clear.

Steve Y:

Adjusted PPG is 1.09
He has finished top-10 in scoring for 6 times. 3, 3, 4, 7, 7 and 10.

Best offensive seasons (adj.):
128 points
111 points
106 points

Jaromir J:

Ajusted PPG is 1.30
He has finished top-10 in scoring for 11 times. 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 6, 6 and 9

Best offensive seasons (adj.):
145 points
144 points
131 points
121 points
120 points
117 points
105 points

I can't imagine there would be enough defence to go around for justifying Steve over Jaromir.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
No, he's not. Even if we give him credit for reinventing himself he didnt dominate the way Jagr did. Even if we remove Gretzky and Lemieux, Yzerman still end up with only two 1st places in scoring. Jagr has five and a second place to Lemieux and another second place in '06. Jagr is definitly a notch above Yzerman because his offensive output outweighs Yzermans defensive abillities.
Adjusted stats measure a notion of "value" relative to some scoring context they arent telling us who is "better" offensively. Similar to one guy scoring 2 goals in a 2-1 victory while another guy scores 3 goals in a 3-2 the former is more valuable within the context of his game scoring than the latter but you cant say which is better with just that

Scoring placements arent directly comparable between two different eras unless you are assuming that the contexts are similar enough. There is good reason to believe this isnt the case. First the top end forward talent just looks weaker. Jagr is playing in an era where very few players are going all out offense unlike Yzerman's era. Maybe just Jagr, Bure, Selanne, Kariya of the big names. Also the late 90s saw a ton of injuries to top scorers regularly. Yzerman himself could hit top 10 again in 2000 at age 34/35 playing a defense first role after he had already lost a step to injuries due these reasons.

And people dont say that Yzerman without Gretzky and Lemieux would be known as by far the most dominant player because he was finishing 3rd to them alone every year. They say it because thats the way he played.

Yzerman didnt finish in the top 10 in 88 and he finished behind Savard in ppg but by December 1987 during his 22 point streak he was firmly planted as the 3rd best player in the league. He didnt suddenly stop being considered the 3rd best in 90 either ive pointed out the comment that while Bourque Messier Lafontaine were considered the Hart candidates by the all star game that year the same people considered Gretzky/Lemieux/Yzerman the best players.

Oh and im wondering exactly how long some of you think Jagr was considered to be dominating the rest of the league by far?
99? ok (though that 20 point margin of victory looks less impressive when you consider that Selanne played 6 less games as it projects to 10 points behind if he played the same as Jagr and that Jagr scored a ton of secondary assists)
Maybe 2000 if he played a full year? When else?
Cause Yzerman himself has much of the 88-90 period himself so...

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12-08-2012, 01:28 AM
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Oh and im wondering exactly how long some of you think Jagr was considered to be dominating the rest of the league by far?
99? ok (though that 20 point margin of victory looks less impressive when you consider that Selanne played 6 less games as it projects to 10 points behind if he played the same as Jagr and that Jagr scored a ton of secondary assists)
Maybe 2000 if he played a full year? When else?
Cause Yzerman himself has much of the 88-90 period himself so...
Well Selanne outscored the next player on his team by 6 points, Jagr outscored the next player on his team by 44 points...

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12-08-2012, 02:24 AM
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Well Selanne outscored the next player on his team by 6 points, Jagr outscored the next player on his team by 44 points...
Before we start pretending that Jagr disproves John Donne's "no man is an island," let's recognize what really happened in 1998-99:

Jagr: 44 Goals, 44 Primary Assists in 81 Games
Selanne: 47 Goals, 40 Primary Assists in 75 Games

Jagr: 39 Secondary Assists
Selanne: 20 Secondary Assists


Maybe they weren't named Paul Kariya, but someone in Pittsburgh was putting the puck in the net after they accepted a pass from a different player who accepted a pass from Jaromir Jagr.

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12-08-2012, 02:44 AM
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Before we start pretending that Jagr disproves John Donne's "no man is an island," let's recognize what really happened in 1998-99:

Jagr: 44 Goals, 44 Primary Assists in 81 Games
Selanne: 47 Goals, 40 Primary Assists in 75 Games

Jagr: 39 Secondary Assists
Selanne: 20 Secondary Assists


Maybe they weren't named Paul Kariya, but someone in Pittsburgh was putting the puck in the net after they accepted a pass from a different player who accepted a pass from Jaromir Jagr.
The most common recipient of Jagr's secondary assists? None other than perennial Rocket contender and legend Stu Barnes. Besides Jagr, the only Pen with over 21 goals was Straka... and that was the only time he had more than 30. Let's not pretend Jagr was passing it to someone who passed it to Brett Hull, he was mostly creating offense from scratch.

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12-08-2012, 03:06 AM
  #23
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Adjusted stats measure a notion of "value" relative to some scoring context they arent telling us who is "better" offensively. Similar to one guy scoring 2 goals in a 2-1 victory while another guy scores 3 goals in a 3-2 the former is more valuable within the context of his game scoring than the latter but you cant say which is better with just that

Scoring placements arent directly comparable between two different eras unless you are assuming that the contexts are similar enough. There is good reason to believe this isnt the case. First the top end forward talent just looks weaker. Jagr is playing in an era where very few players are going all out offense unlike Yzerman's era. Maybe just Jagr, Bure, Selanne, Kariya of the big names. Also the late 90s saw a ton of injuries to top scorers regularly. Yzerman himself could hit top 10 again in 2000 at age 34/35 playing a defense first role after he had already lost a step to injuries due these reasons.

And people dont say that Yzerman without Gretzky and Lemieux would be known as by far the most dominant player because he was finishing 3rd to them alone every year. They say it because thats the way he played.

Yzerman didnt finish in the top 10 in 88 and he finished behind Savard in ppg but by December 1987 during his 22 point streak he was firmly planted as the 3rd best player in the league. He didnt suddenly stop being considered the 3rd best in 90 either ive pointed out the comment that while Bourque Messier Lafontaine were considered the Hart candidates by the all star game that year the same people considered Gretzky/Lemieux/Yzerman the best players.

Oh and im wondering exactly how long some of you think Jagr was considered to be dominating the rest of the league by far?
99? ok (though that 20 point margin of victory looks less impressive when you consider that Selanne played 6 less games as it projects to 10 points behind if he played the same as Jagr and that Jagr scored a ton of secondary assists)
Maybe 2000 if he played a full year? When else?
Cause Yzerman himself has much of the 88-90 period himself so...
I don't know. If comparing players by raw/adjusted scoring finishes/totals is useless it pretty much leaves opinions on the table.

I agree that adjusted data should be taken with context and adj. stats penalize the 80's players a bit too much. But if looking at raw stats/adj. stats combined with scoring finishes and longevity of elite offensive play there is no way Yzerman comes out as good as Jagr.

I think it is fair to argue that Yzerman peaked as high offensively as Jagr. I would still put Jagr ahead of Steve but at least it is a fair debate. Now looking at primes and careers it is fairly easy to see which one of these two players maintained the elite offensive play for longer.

Now there is always argument for Yzerman since he became a great two-way player. For me, one Selke does not trump 3-4 Art Ross trophies what Jagr had.
By looking at this list it comes pretty clear that Jagr has had superior offensive career. Yzerman comes out on top only once if we remove Lemieux/Gretzky from the competition. Do the same for Jagr and the difference becomes pretty clear.

Points Per Game finishes for Yzerman
1987-88 NHL 1.59 (4)
1988-89 NHL 1.94 (3)
1989-90 NHL 1.61 (4)
1990-91 NHL 1.35 (7)
1991-92 NHL 1.30 (9)
1992-93 NHL 1.63 (5)
1993-94 NHL 1.41 (6)

Point Per Game finishes for Jagr
1994-95 NHL 1.46 (2)
1995-96 NHL 1.82 (2)
1996-97 NHL 1.51 (3)
1997-98 NHL 1.32 (1)
1998-99 NHL 1.57 (1)
1999-00 NHL 1.52 (1)
2000-01 NHL 1.49 (2)
2001-02 NHL 1.14 (3)
2005-06 NHL 1.50 (2)

When talking about the best players on planet, I cant remember anyone saying Yzerman was the better player in late 90's compared to Jagr. If his overall value would have been so high then the debate should not exist.

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12-08-2012, 03:23 AM
  #24
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The most common recipient of Jagr's secondary assists? None other than perennial Rocket contender and legend Stu Barnes. Besides Jagr, the only Pen with over 21 goals was Straka... and that was the only time he had more than 30. Let's not pretend Jagr was passing it to someone who passed it to Brett Hull, he was mostly creating offense from scratch.
Doesn't matter if it's one guy, two guys, or one of seventeen different guys; someone was scoring the goals after accepting a pass from someone who wasn't Jagr. I don't care who the finisher was, and I certainly didn't allude to it being Brett Hull, so you can save that "pretend" comment for someone else. What matters is that there was a finisher on 39 occasions to Selanne's 20, and that was the ultimate difference in a scoring race that was made more distant by a GP disparity.

It's offense, but Jagr was further attenuated from it. For a one year argument, I'd stick with 2000, when he had a bigger gap on Bure and Sakic. I think Jagr is a better player than Yzerman, sure, but I don't think it's that big of a gap that they don't match each other in this HOF for HOF comparison.

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12-08-2012, 03:30 AM
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Doesn't matter if it's one guy, two guys, or one of seventeen different guys; someone was scoring the goals after accepting a pass from someone who wasn't Jagr. I don't care who the finisher was, and I certainly didn't allude to it being Brett Hull, so you can save that "pretend" comment for someone else. What matters is that there was a finisher on 39 occasions to Selanne's 20, and that was the ultimate difference in a scoring race that was made more distant by a GP disparity.

It's offense, but Jagr was further attenuated from it. For a one year argument, I'd stick with 2000, when he had a bigger gap on Bure and Sakic. I think Jagr is a better player than Yzerman, sure, but I don't think it's that big of a gap that they don't match each other in this HOF for HOF comparison.
Good points. Kind of weird how it turned out like that on the secondary assists. Is Jagr known for getting 2nd assists a lot? Cause if it was year in year out kind of thing then it might be reasonable to give him some credit for it.

I think Jagr is on a different level than Yzerman. I consider Yzerman, Sakic etc. being the upper echelon of one level and Jagr being a notch above them alone and Lemieux/Gretzky being on their own level. This is for "modern" players tough.

Hard to value "The Rocket" or Bobby Hull or Howe. But from 80's forward I have three categories of elite forwards.

1st. Lemieux Gretzky
2nd. Jagr
3rd. Yzerman, Sakic Forsberg, Kariya, Selanne, Lindros, etc. (this third one has Sakic and Yzerman in the top and players like Selanne and Kariya at the bottom.)

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