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Old
09-19-2012, 02:21 PM
  #401
ps241
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Originally Posted by fantasybaseballchamp View Post
Like I said, I wasn't arguing for either system, both are flawed. I do think the whole being a farm system for the rest of the league gets really overstated but that's not really what I was trying to get at. Edmonton and Ottawa were both competitive prior to the lockout. Florida was bad, but I can't really remember it being a case of them developing a lot of good young players and then losing them to the rest of the league.

Free agent frenzy has always been kind of a fool's gold but especially prior to the lockout when free agents were 31+.

Anyway, the new system has actually hurt small market teams with the inflated cap floor. The whole CBA seems pretty poorly thought out and what's frustrating is the possibility of losing another significant chunk of time trying to fix it when it should have been properly addressed last time.

The league needs a lot more than just a few extra % points from the players, they need to start getting creative and helping the bottom rung of the league with real, legitimate revenue sharing similar to the MLB revenue sharing model.


I don't disagree it’s just that when you have a $10 billion dollar sport like the NFL or a $7 billion dollar sport like MLB you have allot more revenue to share and therefore more options to find solutions. With the NHL and a $3.3 billion dollar pie the owners are not going to solve the challenges with 43% of the currently defined HRR's.

I don't think it is that tough to create a revenue sharing system that works this time around (I have seen some great ideas on HFBoards) it will be selling the players and wealthy owners to get on board.

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Old
09-19-2012, 02:38 PM
  #402
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I'm not even going to try and get in depth like some of the posts here (because they are truly enlightening and well thought out) but I think there's plenty of blame to share around for both parties.

Take for example @BizNasty2.0 (Paul Bissonnette), who tweets that they're fighting for their futures. Well I've read his Twitter account, and if your future includes hanging out in Vegas, drinking Crystal in a hot tub with a bunch of models and Playboy Bunnies, then that's certainly a future worth fighting for I guess. Not a future I can relate to, but I'm just a (barely) working stiff.

As for the owners, all the signings of the last month (yes I know there are solid reasons for that), just don't look good, from an optics point of view (another term I hate). David Poile cries poor one day, breaks the bank the next, and then is sitting in the boardroom looking for a break on the deal he brokered (yes I know it's not a roll back per se). Still, it doesn't make me feel very happy.

Edit: I should have also said thanks to all those who are helping me to get my head around the contortions of the bargaining/economic process. Much appreciated.


Last edited by Savardian Spinarama: 09-19-2012 at 02:53 PM.
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Old
09-19-2012, 02:42 PM
  #403
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The average Canadian makes $1,713,000 in a 40 year career. The average yearly NHL salary in 2011-2012 was $2.4 million.

I think that's simple enough.

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Old
09-19-2012, 02:54 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Canadian Airlines View Post
The average Canadian makes $1,713,000 in a 40 year career. The average yearly NHL salary in 2011-2012 was $2.4 million.

I think that's simple enough.
What's your point? The average annual salary of a Fortune 500 CEO was $12 million last year. You get paid in accordance to your skills. Supply and demand.


Last edited by s1g: 09-19-2012 at 03:13 PM.
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Old
09-19-2012, 03:14 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
At the initial offer, yes the escrow penalty would have hurt somewhat. The NHL has been willing to move on their percent.

Notice no numbers? That article is also VERY dated. Owners went as high as 49% with the old definition of HRR in the latest offer. Like I said, the place the owners want to get to 50-52 WILL NOT hurt the players very bad in escrow. And there has NEVER been any offer that has had a rollback.



What in the hell? The owners were operating under the current CBA, which REQUIRED them to spend to get to the floor in a lot of cases, OR they were spending a small percent of their team's revenues. The system did not work, no doubt.



NOT TRUE! The Owners have gone back to the old definition of HRR. So yeah, nope!



The new NBC deal is pretty damn good and very long term. Revenue sharing is what is needed there is no doubt. But nobody is the bad guy here. The % REALLY needs to drop, the revenue sharing REALLY needs to increase. It's a give and take, neither side is doing either. Arbitrarily assigning a "bad guy" is ridiculous. Both sides have part of the picture...nobody can see the forest through the trees right now and that's what is costing us hockey, not because one side or the other is bad guys or good guys..

thanks. you just proved every point I have been trying to make.


The owners came out alll hardball with early offers which the players were right to refuse. first off people were saying "The owners never made that offer, now its "Well yeah but ...they changed it back to the original HRR, almost.Kinda."

A couple of percent here or there won't work. I know it you know it and the NHLPA knows it. The only people who don't seem to know it are the owners.

If this passes. we will be here again in 5 years, and I bet you it won't be a strike, it'll be another Lock-out.



and pheonix is waaaaaaay ore complicated than your trivial analysis of "Meh blame council"

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Old
09-19-2012, 03:15 PM
  #406
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What's your point? The average salary of a Fortune 500 CEO is $12 million. You get paid in accordance to your skills. Supply and demand.
You're gonna tell me that Paul Bissonette's "skills" are worth $500,000+/year?

The fact is, as much as I love hockey, the players contribute absolutely NOTHING to society. It's an embarrassment that these people make millions of dollars per year to play a game, while actual hard working people who contribute to society and actually make a difference in the world struggle to get by on a daily basis.

Sorry, no hockey player deserves to make the money they make. Every single player in the league is overpaid. AHL salaries are what they should be making, not this mimimum $575,000/year crap.

Hell, Gordie Howe never made more than $100,000 in a season.

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09-19-2012, 03:17 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by s1g View Post
What's your point? The average annual salary of a Fortune 500 CEO was $12 million last year. You get paid in accordance to your skills. Supply and demand.
then why arent heart surgeons and all making 5 million a year?

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09-19-2012, 03:22 PM
  #408
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then why arent heart surgeons and all making 5 million a year?
This is a good point. I have to get surgery, and I have to wait til February just for the consultation. The surgery itself probably won't happen until June or July of next year.

Now THAT'S supply and demand. If, for example, Alexander Ovechkin and his massive salary decide to stay in Russia, then he can be easily replaced by someone else. There is an unlimited supply of hockey players.

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Old
09-19-2012, 03:28 PM
  #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s1g View Post
What's your point? The average annual salary of a Fortune 500 CEO was $12 million last year. You get paid in accordance to your skills. Supply and demand.
Not so. There's a lot of skewed situations out there which are taken advantage of. Business is business, greed is greed, and it is not related to skill. An astronaut is very much more skilled than a CEO, who is just good at deals.

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09-19-2012, 03:36 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Canadian Airlines View Post
You're gonna tell me that Paul Bissonette's "skills" are worth $500,000+/year?

The fact is, as much as I love hockey, the players contribute absolutely NOTHING to society. It's an embarrassment that these people make millions of dollars per year to play a game, while actual hard working people who contribute to society and actually make a difference in the world struggle to get by on a daily basis.

Sorry, no hockey player deserves to make the money they make. Every single player in the league is overpaid. AHL salaries are what they should be making, not this mimimum $575,000/year crap.

Hell, Gordie Howe never made more than $100,000 in a season.
They contribute nothing? What do you mean by contribute? What do YOU contribute to society? Hockey players contribute by entertaining people like you. Why are you on this message board? To talk about a sport which YOU enjoy watching. That is their contribution to society - to entertain you.

Do you want players to stop making so much money? Don't go to games. Don't watch games on TV. Don't buy Jets merchandise. Don't even go on NHL.com Simple as that.

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09-19-2012, 03:39 PM
  #411
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From my point of view the lockout which led to the existing and expiring deal was something the Owners wanted and got. They also have a business that makes in excess of 300 million dollars in profit.

Now years later they want more

Regardless of the money involved for either side, I just don't see how anyone can side with a group of people that think like that.

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09-19-2012, 03:39 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
then why arent heart surgeons and all making 5 million a year?
Because there are more doctors than there are NHL players. Supply and demand.

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Old
09-19-2012, 03:43 PM
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
From my point of view the lockout which led to the existing and expiring deal was something the Owners wanted and got. They also have a business that makes in excess of 300 million dollars in profit.

Now years later they want more

Regardless of the money involved for either side, I just don't see how anyone can side with a group of people that think like that.
The profit margins of all but the big 3 teams is EXTREMELY small or very red...

My biggest problem is people who say this nonsense:
Owners got what they wanted and what they wanted didn't work for them so that its their fault

Nooooo... False. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
What they did IMPROVED the situation towards what they want/wanted. Period. End of story. That's a fact. Costs and player salaries were slowed down... just not enough.

They are trying to improve it further with more equal 50/50 HRR... BUT they will need better rev sharing to help solve the problem permanently but with bargaining sometimes you have to pick your battles

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Old
09-19-2012, 03:46 PM
  #414
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And so it begins

Quote:
@BrownScottTN
NHL cancels preseason games until September 30; affects two #NHLJets home games

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09-19-2012, 04:00 PM
  #415
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thanks. you just proved every point I have been trying to make.


The owners came out alll hardball with early offers which the players were right to refuse. first off people were saying "The owners never made that offer, now its "Well yeah but ...they changed it back to the original HRR, almost.Kinda."

A couple of percent here or there won't work. I know it you know it and the NHLPA knows it. The only people who don't seem to know it are the owners.

If this passes. we will be here again in 5 years, and I bet you it won't be a strike, it'll be another Lock-out.



and pheonix is waaaaaaay ore complicated than your trivial analysis of "Meh blame council"
Uh, yeah it's ALLL the owners fault. The PA has flat out refused to negotiate, but no it's all the owners fault. Owners have come up to 49%, I have NO DOUBT they will come up more, but seeing as how the PA has flat out refused to negotiate there's no way they will be giving away any more when the PA refuses to give anything back the other way. I don't know how saying this deal is not working is proving your point? The owners did not really win the last lockout, sure they got their linkage, but at a huge cost (57%, strict floor, hugely increased UFA years, etc), everybody knows this deal is not working. Nobody is suggesting that the last owners offer was the last, it is still a working point...only one problem, only one side is working to make a deal right now.

Couple percent here or there...do you realize how much money is in ONE PERCENT? Why do you think the players are fighting so hard to maintain their percentage?

Actually they did go back to original HRR. Not sure what you are talking about at all. Why is ALL on the owners to fix everything. Again this idea that one side or the other is right is just...short sighted. They need to work together, BOTH have parts of it right, BOTH have parts of it wrong.

Obviously any labour strike is a lock-out, all CBA's have no strike clauses and owners will never again play without a CBA after how the player's ****ed them in 1992 (and Don Fehr's famous 1994 strike). Lockout or strike is not proof of anything.

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Old
09-19-2012, 04:00 PM
  #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
From my point of view the lockout which led to the existing and expiring deal was something the Owners wanted and got. They also have a business that makes in excess of 300 million dollars in profit.

Now years later they want more

Regardless of the money involved for either side, I just don't see how anyone can side with a group of people that think like that.
right

they made 300 million dollars profit

but the average player salary is 2.6 million

so (21*30)*2.6 mean the players as an entity made roughly around 1.6 billion.....

how can you side with that? because it's a smaller number per person?

Fine lets assume there's 2 "owners' per team (as there is definitely far more then that on average when talking about ownership groups/investors/etc) that means the average owner made 5 million dollars.

60 made 5 million each, and 630 made 2.6 each

GROSSS over simplification i'm aware, but it does illustrate that 300 million profit is PEANUTS when you compare it to the amount of money made by players.

never mind the losses some teams take...eesh

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09-19-2012, 04:04 PM
  #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s1g View Post
What's your point? The average annual salary of a Fortune 500 CEO was $12 million last year. You get paid in accordance to your skills. Supply and demand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1g View Post
Because there are more doctors than there are NHL players. Supply and demand.
Too bad a doctors skills are about 1000000000000000000x more important to society then a hockey player is

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09-19-2012, 04:07 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
The profit margins of all but the big 3 teams is EXTREMELY small or very red...

My biggest problem is people who say this nonsense:
Owners got what they wanted and what they wanted didn't work for them so that its their fault

Nooooo... False. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
What they did IMPROVED the situation towards what they want/wanted. Period. End of story. That's a fact. Costs and player salaries were slowed down... just not enough.

They are trying to improve it further with more equal 50/50 HRR... BUT they will need better rev sharing to help solve the problem permanently but with bargaining sometimes you have to pick your battles

you say that the profits are small or in the red but the last CBA worked? okay but This one will work, really, honest, we got it right this time. promiss.

I agree the players need to move on the %ages. but the owners Really need to fix the revenue share and fix the league. or this will happen all over again. which is what the players are saying.

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09-19-2012, 04:09 PM
  #419
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This is a good point. I have to get surgery, and I have to wait til February just for the consultation. The surgery itself probably won't happen until June or July of next year.

Now THAT'S supply and demand. If, for example, Alexander Ovechkin and his massive salary decide to stay in Russia, then he can be easily replaced by someone else. There is an unlimited supply of hockey players.
I got hurt at the Lake Aug long 2011

I found out it was a hernia mid Oct 2011

I got my letter from the specialist telling me when my consultation appointment was... that happened mid Nov 2011

My consultation appointment was mar 31 2012

After that appointment I got a letter 3 months later tell me my surgery was Aug 10 2012

So it took over a year to get my hernia fixed which is ****ing ridiculous.


So saying hockey players should get paid more then doctors is a joke.
Clearly there is more of a demand for a doctor then a hockey player. There are many waiting to get into the NHL... they are just waiting for their time.

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Old
09-19-2012, 04:22 PM
  #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
From my point of view the lockout which led to the existing and expiring deal was something the Owners wanted and got. They also have a business that makes in excess of 300 million dollars in profit.

Now years later they want more

Regardless of the money involved for either side, I just don't see how anyone can side with a group of people that think like that.


I guess it all comes down to which side you fall on but I for one am acting in my own self interests which I define as having an NHL team remain in Winnipeg long term within a system where we can compete for cups if managed properly (competitive balance). I believe that puts me squarely behind TNSE and probably pits me against the players (at their current 57% of HRR) and the so called handful of extreme “have markets”. Not necessarily against them but the solution for rev sharing will most likely be borne by them in the next CBA IMHO.

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Old
09-19-2012, 04:26 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
Too bad a doctors skills are about 1000000000000000000x more important to society then a hockey player is
If 15,000 people were willing to pay $80-90 41 times a year to sit in MTS Center to watch a doctor perform surgery for 2.5 hours, then sure, they'd probably get paid equivalent to what an NHL player makes. I don't see how or why this concept of supply and demand is so difficult for you to grasp.

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09-19-2012, 05:24 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
you say that the profits are small or in the red but the last CBA worked? okay but This one will work, really, honest, we got it right this time. promiss.

I agree the players need to move on the %ages. but the owners Really need to fix the revenue share and fix the league. or this will happen all over again. which is what the players are saying.
I said the lockout ended up with improvement.

The owners are working towards further improvement even though it sucks that the players lose some money.

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Old
09-19-2012, 05:58 PM
  #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
From my point of view the lockout which led to the existing and expiring deal was something the Owners wanted and got. They also have a business that makes in excess of 300 million dollars in profit.

Now years later they want more

Regardless of the money involved for either side, I just don't see how anyone can side with a group of people that think like that.
Who is this "The Owners" that made a profit and want more? There are several owners, most of whom lost money.

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Old
09-19-2012, 06:22 PM
  #424
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Assuming Bettman's next offer does get worse, have fun trying to get a free market, players.

If they try to pull that crap I hope the owners beat them into the ground.

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09-19-2012, 08:27 PM
  #425
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I am a bit suprised that nobody commented on post #343 and Guest (s) unique concept for revenue sharing? I thought it was one of the more innovative proposals I have seen so far, or maybe it was just me being bored

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