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Old
09-19-2012, 09:03 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by s1g View Post
If 15,000 people were willing to pay $80-90 41 times a year to sit in MTS Center to watch a doctor perform surgery for 2.5 hours, then sure, they'd probably get paid equivalent to what an NHL player makes. I don't see how or why this concept of supply and demand is so difficult for you to grasp.
Outside of the elite talent most of these players are replaceable (they have little to no affect on league earnings). How many people are buying tickets to see Hainsey & Antropov? Both of whom make over $4 million a year.


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09-19-2012, 09:15 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by s1g View Post
If 15,000 people were willing to pay $80-90 41 times a year to sit in MTS Center to watch a doctor perform surgery for 2.5 hours, then sure, they'd probably get paid equivalent to what an NHL player makes. I don't see how or why this concept of supply and demand is so difficult for you to grasp.
Looked to me like he was trying to point out the absurdity of a highly skilled professional who saves countless lives making 1/10th what a guy who entertains you for a couple of hours a couple of times a week does. That seems to have eluded you in your efforts to educate us on "supply and demand".

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09-19-2012, 09:31 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I am a bit suprised that nobody commented on post #343 and Guest (s) unique concept for revenue sharing? I thought it was one of the more innovative proposals I have seen so far, or maybe it was just me being bored
He's quoting himself again...what a DBag lol.

Just for you PS, I went and read it...and in an ideal world it works. If the NHL was really the fifth stage of communism, it works.

It works out, in essence, that all the teams make the same amount of money, but why should that be the case? Why should the teams like the Rags and the Leafs have to make the same amount as the bottom dwellers in income?

Shouldn't you, as an owner, be rewarded for selling a product that people actually want?

I think the best idea would be to have a separate percentage of all revenue that had to go into the pot. Say 20% of everything you make that year, and all the top teams do it. Say the teams that have made 100+ in HRR or something. Goes into the pot and is divied among the teams that made less the say, 90m in HRR.

It's a very rough idea, it can from off the top of my head, but there you go.

A response.

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09-19-2012, 09:36 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Potrzebie View Post
Looked to me like he was trying to point out the absurdity of a highly skilled professional who saves countless lives making 1/10th what a guy who entertains you for a couple of hours a couple of times a week does. That seems to have eluded you in your efforts to educate us on "supply and demand".
Entertainment always has been at a premium. It's not a basic necessity, you don't have to get it, but the majority of us do because it provides relief from our normal, every day lives. That right there is its service to society. Sports athletes are our modern day gladiators, with the greatest of them being venerated like the gladiators of old.

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09-19-2012, 09:41 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by GrandChelems View Post
Who is this "The Owners" that made a profit and want more? There are several owners, most of whom lost money.
and for a bunch of teams the cap floor is a hell of a lot higher than 57% of their revenue... not the player's fault, but getting the overall split down to 50/50 would certainly help (that and a couple more franchise relocations)

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09-19-2012, 09:44 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by A_wildstabatanything View Post
Outside of the elite talent most of these players are replaceable (they have little to no affect on league earnings). How many people are buying tickets to see Hainsey & Antropov? Both of whom make over $4 million a year.
Cap hit isn't the same as pay. Neither Antro or Hainsey are being paid as much as their cap hit...

Also, you'd be hard pressed to find a second pairing D who can take tough minutes and come on top for less than 4 mil anyways... possible but very tough (and don't go showing contracts that were signed 3+ years ago; it isn't comparable).

The point people are missing is that even the replaceable players are being paid the value the system creates (and free market would be paying even greater).

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09-19-2012, 09:45 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
you say that the profits are small or in the red but the last CBA worked? okay but This one will work, really, honest, we got it right this time. promiss.

I agree the players need to move on the %ages. but the owners Really need to fix the revenue share and fix the league. or this will happen all over again. which is what the players are saying.
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
I said the lockout ended up with improvement.

The owners are working towards further improvement even though it sucks that the players lose some money.
Both are fair posts.

They got some things right last time but they didn't get everything right. I thought they did a very good job of working towards competitive balance in the league and driving the overall brand (total revenue). The players took a short term step back before taking some huge steps forward. The top owners recorded record profits, but away too many teams are not doing well financially and that is where its at now. If BOTH SIDES can find a way to close loopholes in the CBA to avoid cap circumvention, if they can significantly improve revenue sharing to improve fiscal stability of the have not teams, and the profitability of the medium revenue teams, while ensuring players salaries don't go down in the short term and continue to grow over the long term as HRR continues to progress year over year then they will have achieved the next step in making sure all stakeholders have a shot at fiscal stability and competitive balance. if they get the formula right and "preserve hope" in all markets (like the NFL has) they could grow this into a $5 billion dollar a year property in the next decade IMHO. I Really I think with Fehr and Bettman at the helm despite the battle they will come up with some creative solutions to improve the CBA when they finally get around to negociating.

Feel free to Flame my glass half full post during the dark days of the lock out

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09-19-2012, 10:01 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I am a bit suprised that nobody commented on post #343 and Guest (s) unique concept for revenue sharing? I thought it was one of the more innovative proposals I have seen so far, or maybe it was just me being bored
Naah, you were just bored, or maybe sleep deprived, because you are usually the embodiment of common sense.
Guest's plan would have the top 3 NHL franchises (2 of which are Canadian) contributing $154 million to prop up a whole bunch of money losers, many of which are either poorly run or poorly conceived. That is no way to do business and, hard as I usually am on Toronto, is not fair. There are simpler ways to make this work that do not penalize business success.


Last edited by scelaton: 09-19-2012 at 10:27 PM.
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Old
09-19-2012, 10:13 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
The profit margins of all but the big 3 teams is EXTREMELY small or very red...

My biggest problem is people who say this nonsense:
Owners got what they wanted and what they wanted didn't work for them so that its their fault

Nooooo... False. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
What they did IMPROVED the situation towards what they want/wanted. Period. End of story. That's a fact. Costs and player salaries were slowed down... just not enough.

They are trying to improve it further with more equal 50/50 HRR... BUT they will need better rev sharing to help solve the problem permanently but with bargaining sometimes you have to pick your battles
The players caved last lockout. That is a fact. They got the last CBA forced on them.

The owners got exactly what they wanted last time and they are playing the same game again. They want more and they will get it because the players will cave again.

Maybe I am a simple country boy but I just get people that side with people who's wealth dwarves anything they will ever know in their lifetime. This is a microcosm of what is happening in the rest of the world were large corporations and their billionaire owners are putting the screws to the working class. Take your paycuts, cutting of your vacations and don't think about asking for a raise and in the meantime that wealth gap increases.

If you can't see that I don't know what else to say

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Old
09-19-2012, 10:27 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
The players caved last lockout. That is a fact. They got the last CBA forced on them.

The owners got exactly what they wanted last time and they are playing the same game again. They want more and they will get it because the players will cave again.

Maybe I am a simple country boy but I just get people that side with people who's wealth dwarves anything they will ever know in their lifetime. This is a microcosm of what is happening in the rest of the world were large corporations and their billionaire owners are putting the screws to the working class. Take your paycuts, cutting of your vacations and don't think about asking for a raise and in the meantime that wealth gap increases.

If you can't see that I don't know what else to say
I don't know Joe when Shea Weber makes more money in his signing bonus that the bottom 15 owners made cumulatively last year in profit I just don't see this as the working stiffs getting rail roaded. My dad spent his entire life working in a union and it didn't look anything like this.

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09-19-2012, 10:36 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by A_wildstabatanything View Post
Outside of the elite talent most of these players are replaceable (they have little to no affect on league earnings). How many people are buying tickets to see Hainsey & Antropov? Both of whom make over $4 million a year.
I love seeing Antropov play hockey...

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Old
09-19-2012, 10:56 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
Naah, you were just bored, or maybe sleep deprived, because you are usually the embodiment of common sense.
Guest's plan would have the top 3 NHL franchises (2 of which are Canadian) contributing $154 million to prop up a whole bunch of money losers, many of which are either poorly run or poorly conceived. That is no way to do business and, hard as I usually am on Toronto, is not fair. There are simpler ways to make this work that do not penalize business success.
Hmmm I will re-read the idea. I had the leafs penciled in at $93 million to cover off their payroll obligations (plus rev share) but I must have totally chuncked my enterpretation of the proposal?

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09-19-2012, 11:04 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
He's quoting himself again...what a DBag lol.

Just for you PS, I went and read it...and in an ideal world it works. If the NHL was really the fifth stage of communism, it works.

It works out, in essence, that all the teams make the same amount of money, but why should that be the case? Why should the teams like the Rags and the Leafs have to make the same amount as the bottom dwellers in income?

Shouldn't you, as an owner, be rewarded for selling a product that people actually want?

I think the best idea would be to have a separate percentage of all revenue that had to go into the pot. Say 20% of everything you make that year, and all the top teams do it. Say the teams that have made 100+ in HRR or something. Goes into the pot and is divied among the teams that made less the say, 90m in HRR. Remember the leafs still have close to $90 million left to cover off non player expenses while Nahsville has about $30 million left over. So the leafs still have a net non player revenue spread of plus $60 ish million (rounding out the numbers without a calculator)

It's a very rough idea, it can from off the top of my head, but there you go.

A response.
Ok your personal assessment of me is in line with what my wife thinks so you are astute (wink) but I would like to debate you on your take of Guests post. the leafs and top teams still made off like bandits even after their escrow contibution but it helps level the playing field a bit and minimized the losses for the lower teams? Remember everyone (including the leafs) pays $32 million towards their payroll and "they all" draw the balance of their needs out of a greatly inflated escrow account!


Last edited by ps241: 09-20-2012 at 06:13 AM.
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Old
09-19-2012, 11:09 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I don't know Joe when Shea Weber makes more money in his signing bonus that the bottom 15 owners made cumulatively last year in profit I just don't see this as the working stiffs getting rail roaded. My dad spent his entire life working in a union and it didn't look anything like this.
Now Mr Tough Guy Ovechkin is threatening to play in the KHL all year...exactly who is he hurting with this kind of talk? I've said it before, but it bears repeating--the only ones remotely close to working stiffs in this business are the marginal NHLers, those whose reward for a lifetime of training is a year or two in the bigs, at the bottom end of the pay scale. If Ovi and his ilk wanted to show union solidarity they would stay back here in NA and do everything in their power to get their brethren back to work.

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09-19-2012, 11:16 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
Now Mr Tough Guy Ovechkin is threatening to play in the KHL all year...exactly who is he hurting with this kind of talk? I've said it before, but it bears repeating--the only ones remotely close to working stiffs in this business are the marginal NHLers, those whose reward for a lifetime of training is a year or two in the bigs, at the bottom end of the pay scale. If Ovi and his ilk wanted to show union solidarity they would stay back here in NA and do everything in their power to get their brethren back to work.
I agree 100%. The stars get to play elsewhere the grunts get to sit and wait. As a union guy the NHLPA makes a mockery of union solidarity.

Comparison: The managers and supervisors get to do "special projects" the factory floor guy walks the picket line.

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09-19-2012, 11:20 PM
  #441
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I think if I have it correct the leafs would still have approximately $60 million more in net revenues after player costs than Nashville so the leafs are still going to be rich ($90 million leafs vs $30 million Nashville after payroll plus escrow net revenue)? The spirit of the deal is each team contributes 50% of their revenue to all players salaries. It's not communism as much as it Is enhanced revenue sharing and allot of it is leveraged off the players dropping to 50% of HRR. Allot closer to an NFL model where they split gate revenues as well.


Last edited by ps241: 09-19-2012 at 11:26 PM.
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09-19-2012, 11:23 PM
  #442
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I love seeing Antropov play hockey...
Antropov and Hainsey... most undervalued players on the Jets. 100%

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09-19-2012, 11:28 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
I agree 100%. The stars get to play elsewhere the grunts get to sit and wait. As a union guy the NHLPA makes a mockery of union solidarity.

Comparison: The managers and supervisors get to do "special projects" the factory floor guy walks the picket line.
Exactly. As I said in another thread, European GM's are getting dozens of calls per day, but as Swedish Division 2, SM-Liigga, Swiss Div-1, Swiss Div-2, Czech League, DEL GM's they have a very limited amount of money to insure/pay players and KHL has restrictive limits...european players and stars that are already hugely paid have some options but your average CDN or USA 2nd/3rd liner have no options, nevermind the 4th liners...the ones really walking the line get screwed while the stars get to keep playing. That's where this lockout will be won in the long run as these borderline guys are replaced by youngsters who got to keep playing, these borderline guys will go against the union to break it...

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09-19-2012, 11:30 PM
  #444
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No matter who you blame or who is really at fault, one this is certain:

Three lockouts in less than 20 years is a sign of a very unhealthy league.

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09-20-2012, 12:12 AM
  #445
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I think if I have it correct the leafs would still have approximately $60 million more in net revenues after player costs than Nashville so the leafs are still going to be rich ($90 million leafs vs $30 million Nashville after payroll plus escrow net revenue)? The spirit of the deal is each team contributes 50% of their revenue to all players salaries. It's not communism as much as it Is enhanced revenue sharing and allot of it is leveraged off the players dropping to 50% of HRR. Allot closer to an NFL model where they split gate revenues as well.
It's VERY enhanced revenue sharing. Right now the rumour is that profitable teams contribute 7% to revenue sharing. Even if you doubled that, which I would support, that's not a lot of money from a $200-300 million profit pot. The lion's share will still have to come from the players chunk of revenues, which would have been around $2 billion this year, at current rates of growth. You could phase a 50/50 split in over a couple of years to preclude the need for player salary cuts, let increasing HRR work its magic, and all but the sickest franchises would be OK.

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09-20-2012, 12:23 AM
  #446
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
No matter who you blame or who is really at fault, one this is certain:

Three lockouts in less than 20 years is a sign of a very unhealthy league.
This.

And I stand by the PA. I'm union and regardless of how much money you make unioners stand together. No company with a profit margin like the NHL's would ever ask their employees to take a 17% decrease in salary.

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09-20-2012, 12:33 AM
  #447
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This.

And I stand by the PA. I'm union and regardless of how much money you make unioners stand together. No company with a profit margin like the NHL's would ever ask their employees to take a 17% decrease in salary.
And if Ford posts 1.3 billion in revenue over the last 2 years, but closes 2/3rds of their dealerships, what does that tell you? League revenue is not the same as team revenue. How hard is that to figure out? I also love the idea of the union sticking together by having your top representatives seek employment elsewhere.

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09-20-2012, 01:25 AM
  #448
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This.

And I stand by the PA. I'm union and regardless of how much money you make unioners stand together. No company with a profit margin like the NHL's would ever ask their employees to take a 17% decrease in salary.
The owners invested 100"s of millions of dollars to purchase the franchises build rinks , promote the game and pay all expenses........should they just hope to break even on their investment for the public good......or should they be entitled to a return on their investment.......... The average player salary is 2.4 million ......without any financial risk...... we have numerous examples of guaranteed contracts in the minors and overpaid 4 th line players being pd 4 -7 million per year ( Redden,Gomez)........ The players are primo donas and think their S_ _ _ doesnt stink.
People are saying the owners got the system the wanted last time ...... yes they did .... they got the cap/ and cost certanty and the mechanics of the system that created parity throughout the league........The first CBA was a Trial run ...after 7 years they saw where the flaws were in the CBA and they need to be fixed.....

After the lock out of 2004 the revenue split was 54-46 and then increased to 57-43 for the players after a couple of years..... The Owner s ownered that agreement until its conclusion and now want to renegoatiate a better % and terms..... Just because the players had 57 % of revenues in the [ast .... does not guarantee them them the same % in the future Cbas .......I am fully on the owners side as they are the ones taking the financial risks and providing the product of NHL hockey that I Love to follow.......

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09-20-2012, 05:29 AM
  #449
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
It's VERY enhanced revenue sharing. Right now the rumour is that profitable teams contribute 7% to revenue sharing. Even if you doubled that, which I would support, that's not a lot of money from a $200-300 million profit pot. The lion's share will still have to come from the players chunk of revenues, which would have been around $2 billion this year, at current rates of growth. You could phase a 50/50 split in over a couple of years to preclude the need for player salary cuts, let increasing HRR work its magic, and all but the sickest franchises would be OK.
Yes I agree. What I like most about Guests proposal (not mine) is that now each team has payroll cost certainty. The bulk of the solution is from the new 50 50 split with some help from the rich teams. The key is a teams payroll will never exceed 50% OF THEIR INDIVIDUAL HRR. The Winnipeg Jets no longer get punished by the leafs revenues going up faster than their's while the leafs still get a 50% flow through to the bottom line of each incremental dollar of increased revenue. The genius of the system is the players get 50-50 and the leafs no longer get 80% profit (estimate) of flow through of each incremental new dollar of revenue it drops to 50% (still freaking amazing). Now the weaker teams are punished less by everyone's HRR going up faster than theirs. If it is phased in it could permanently create a fiscally stable environment for all teams IMHO. Columbus might not turn a profit but they will no longer have to deal with a runaway salary floor driven by other teams revenue increases.


Last edited by ps241: 09-20-2012 at 06:22 AM.
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09-20-2012, 05:47 AM
  #450
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Originally Posted by CanucksnWpg View Post
This.

And I stand by the PA. I'm union and regardless of how much money you make unioners stand together. No company with a profit margin like the NHL's would ever ask their employees to take a 17% decrease in salary.
The NHL is not a company CanucksWpg it is an association with 30 individual businesses operating in 30 different markets. Plus at this point nobody is asking the players to take a decrease in salary (yet) most likely when the dust settles they will be asking them to take their increase in pay at a slightly slower rate for a while. and what kind of a brotherhood pays one employee $30 million in salary and bonuses over 12 months and a day while they are paying other brothers $600,000 in the same year to do a similar job "out of a common labour pool ($1.65 billion)"? Don't kid youself like the owners they come together every 7 years like a brotherhood to fight the good fight but the moment the CBA is signed they turn around and act in their own best interests to grab as much of their common labour pool pie as they can and screw their other brothers.

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