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Old
09-20-2012, 06:20 AM
  #451
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
Don't kid youself like the owners they come together every 7 years like a brotherhood to fight the good fight but the moment the CBA is signed they turn around and act in their own best interests to grab as much of their common labour pool pie as they can and screw their other brothers.
and once they're back on the ice, theycontinue to show their love for each other by playing with a total lack of concern for each other's safety

....they're all making more than the average fan thinks is reasonable , but I still think it would be interesting to see the results if the owner's latest offer was put to a secret ballot right now..... any guesses on how solid the 'solidarity level' is when they know they are anonymous?

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09-20-2012, 06:30 AM
  #452
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I don't know Joe when Shea Weber makes more money in his signing bonus that the bottom 15 owners made cumulatively last year in profit I just don't see this as the working stiffs getting rail roaded. My dad spent his entire life working in a union and it didn't look anything like this.
See this is where I keep getting hung up. People are mad at the players for getting paid so much so therefore the players are being jerks...???

But it was the owners that cut the checks. Owners who set the market. Nooobdy expected Webber to get the contract he got, nobody. it was a gobsmack. that is a case of an owner outbidding all the competition. so the owners stab eachother in the back and then blame the players. It's silly.


Owners who use hockey losses as tax breaks to offset thier huge profits in arena managment fees, other non HRR related areas like concessions(7 bux for a beer? are you kidding me) parking, etc. and from thier own unrelated corporate and investment profits. why not lose money on a team. say it's a group of 5 owners and your share of the 35 mil in losses is 6 mill. that loss against a profit on other income might mean as much as 12 million tax deduction. so now how much money did the owner make?

Theese aren't simple business men , they aren't the guys like my dad who owned a store all his life and worked 9-5 and goes home and spent his evening hours doing the books. theese guys thrive on shell corporations and tax deductions and offshore accounts. Theese are the guys who drove the economy OF THE WORLD into the ground , bankrupted several billion dollar corporations and still took thier bonuses home with them (paid for with public bail out money) and laughed.

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09-20-2012, 06:54 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Potrzebie View Post
Looked to me like he was trying to point out the absurdity of a highly skilled professional who saves countless lives making 1/10th what a guy who entertains you for a couple of hours a couple of times a week does. That seems to have eluded you in your efforts to educate us on "supply and demand".
Looks to me like you don't understand supply and demand either. (Hint: There are 70,000 doctors in Canada)

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09-20-2012, 07:09 AM
  #454
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Looks to me like you don't understand supply and demand either. (Hint: There are 70,000 doctors in Canada)
Why do you insist on churning out the same old line, when in the real world it is just not that simple? There are several cases in the real world where it is just as common knowledge that supply and demand fundamentals have broken down a long time ago, as it is that they existed in the first place. Also, if you really did understand supply and demand, you'd also understand that almost all prices and wages aren't in equilibrium at every given moment, and that using "supply and demand" to justify prices or wages at one snapshot in time is just showing everyone how much you don't understand it!

However, since you feel the need to educate us all on supply and demand, how about spending a little time educating yourself on it first? Try Google; type "supply and demand do not apply". Or an introductory economics textbook.


Last edited by GrandChelems: 09-20-2012 at 07:19 AM.
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09-20-2012, 07:51 AM
  #455
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I don't know Joe when Shea Weber makes more money in his signing bonus that the bottom 15 owners made cumulatively last year in profit I just don't see this as the working stiffs getting rail roaded. My dad spent his entire life working in a union and it didn't look anything like this.
This is exactly why I'm not on my usual pro union horse. The richest player s are getting paid more then half the teams are profiting. That's messed up.

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09-20-2012, 08:19 AM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
See this is where I keep getting hung up. People are mad at the players for getting paid so much so therefore the players are being jerks...???

But it was the owners that cut the checks. Owners who set the market. Nooobdy expected Webber to get the contract he got, nobody. it was a gobsmack. that is a case of an owner outbidding all the competition. so the owners stab eachother in the back and then blame the players. It's silly.


Owners who use hockey losses as tax breaks to offset thier huge profits in arena managment fees, other non HRR related areas like concessions(7 bux for a beer? are you kidding me) parking, etc. and from thier own unrelated corporate and investment profits. why not lose money on a team. say it's a group of 5 owners and your share of the 35 mil in losses is 6 mill. that loss against a profit on other income might mean as much as 12 million tax deduction. so now how much money did the owner make?

Theese aren't simple business men , they aren't the guys like my dad who owned a store all his life and worked 9-5 and goes home and spent his evening hours doing the books. theese guys thrive on shell corporations and tax deductions and offshore accounts. Theese are the guys who drove the economy OF THE WORLD into the ground , bankrupted several billion dollar corporations and still took thier bonuses home with them (paid for with public bail out money) and laughed.
I don't think anyone thinks the owners are saints here. The point is all signs of the sport and enternaiment inDustry say players shouldn't have that cut, the ratio of player salaries to mean franchise revenue is totally out of whack, the nhlpa does not behave like a union, gaming and contract negotiations are a game themselves within the sport and to expected the owners to do anything other then their best to "win" within the rules ( ie not paying as much as they can afford) is ridiculous and akin to saying " players should throw games against bad teams so that the bed team can get a better record, generate more money, and pay other players more. Its ********. I apologize for the language but it is, that expectation is ********.

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09-20-2012, 08:23 AM
  #457
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More revenue sharing is mandatory but is completely wasted on some teams. If a team meets all criteria they are eligible for 10M. You could increase that amount by 50% and there will be still be some teams (which shall remain nameless) that will bleed money until the cows come home.

The league and the players have to come to grip that some teams, for the betterment of the league as a whole, need to be relocated to profitable markets.

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09-20-2012, 08:27 AM
  #458
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Originally Posted by GrandChelems View Post
Why do you insist on churning out the same old line, when in the real world it is just not that simple? There are several cases in the real world where it is just as common knowledge that supply and demand fundamentals have broken down a long time ago, as it is that they existed in the first place. Also, if you really did understand supply and demand, you'd also understand that almost all prices and wages aren't in equilibrium at every given moment, and that using "supply and demand" to justify prices or wages at one snapshot in time is just showing everyone how much you don't understand it!

However, since you feel the need to educate us all on supply and demand, how about spending a little time educating yourself on it first? Try Google; type "supply and demand do not apply". Or an introductory economics textbook.
Well, since you seem to know so much, then why don't you share your wealth of knowledge with this board by providing some examples? Please educate us.


Last edited by Hank Chinaski: 09-20-2012 at 08:56 AM. Reason: let's keep it civil, guys
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09-20-2012, 08:36 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by CanucksnWpg View Post
This.

And I stand by the PA. I'm union and regardless of how much money you make unioners stand together. No company with a profit margin like the NHL's would ever ask their employees to take a 17% decrease in salary.
What's the NHL's profit margin?

From my understanding, once the franchises pay their players, and then the massive amount of "non player cost" that no one wants to talk about (flights, hotels, staff, etc), unless you are one of the few big markets you actually lost money.

What kind of profit margin is that?

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09-20-2012, 08:50 AM
  #460
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Well, since you seem to know so much, then why don't you share your wealth of knowledge with this board by providing some examples? Please educate us.
This board is not the place for an argument about introductory economics. I already provided examples by showing where outside of this forum to find them. For all we know we are 100 years away from the supply and demand curve in the NHL reaching equilibrium.


Last edited by Hank Chinaski: 09-20-2012 at 08:57 AM. Reason: let's keep it civil, guys
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09-20-2012, 08:50 AM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post

Owners who use hockey losses as tax breaks to offset thier huge profits in arena managment fees, other non HRR related areas like concessions(7 bux for a beer? are you kidding me) parking, etc. and from thier own unrelated corporate and investment profits. why not lose money on a team. say it's a group of 5 owners and your share of the 35 mil in losses is 6 mill. that loss against a profit on other income might mean as much as 12 million tax deduction. so now how much money did the owner make?

Theese aren't simple business men , they aren't the guys like my dad who owned a store all his life and worked 9-5 and goes home and spent his evening hours doing the books. theese guys thrive on shell corporations and tax deductions and offshore accounts. Theese are the guys who drove the economy OF THE WORLD into the ground , bankrupted several billion dollar corporations and still took thier bonuses home with them (paid for with public bail out money) and laughed.
No offense, but I think you are looking at this lockout through a particular lens. I'm not saying you are wrong for disliking the current financial situation of the world, I think all of us hate the fact that things like you described in the above paragraph have happened, and continue to happen.

But unless we disregard the reports from the NHL and NHLPA, the owners have supplied the PA with their financial records. And I believe that the players have agreed with the premise that many teams are losing money. The problem is that a few big teams are making all the money, and the two sides can't agree in how to change the system to ensure that all teams are healthy.

We may just have to disagree, but I don't see the issue here as some sort of Cloak and Dagger operation by the NHL to somehow "convince" the PA that the league and most of its teams are losing money so that they can wrestle a few more dollars out of the players pockets.

It seems like both sides have already agreed that most teams are losing money. The problem is neither side can agree on what to do about it.

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Old
09-20-2012, 08:54 AM
  #462
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I don't know Joe when Shea Weber makes more money in his signing bonus that the bottom 15 owners made cumulatively last year in profit I just don't see this as the working stiffs getting rail roaded. My dad spent his entire life working in a union and it didn't look anything like this.
Is there a link to verify that?? That's insane if true.

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Old
09-20-2012, 08:55 AM
  #463
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Well, since you seem to know so much, then why don't you share your wealth of knowledge with this board by providing some examples? Please educate us.
he has a point, if you just google supply and demand failures or supply and demand doesn't work a number of examples reoccure,

funnily enough, one of them is healthcare.

affordable housing is another (there are practically ZERO 100 to 150 k new houses built, though entire developments of 200k -300k houses pop up consistently.

universities and education are another market generally unaffected by supply and demand.

i think his point is, you are the one making the argument for supply and demand- though your not actually making an argument, you're just literally saying "supply and demand".

Perhaps you could enlighten us with the particulars of the supply and demand economic model and why it is the infallable systemyou seem to think it is (here's a hint, there's more to it then "the more demand the lower the supply" and vice versa).

i'd hope you'd touch on the major economic failures in market economies which took government intervention (IE: NOT supply and demand) in order to reinstate a working S&D model as the original one quite literally broke itself.


Last edited by Hank Chinaski: 09-20-2012 at 08:57 AM. Reason: qep
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09-20-2012, 09:36 AM
  #464
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See this is where I keep getting hung up. People are mad at the players for getting paid so much so therefore the players are being jerks...???

Theese aren't simple business men , they aren't the guys like my dad who owned a store all his life and worked 9-5 and goes home and spent his evening hours doing the books. theese guys thrive on shell corporations and tax deductions and offshore accounts. [B]Theese are the guys who drove the economy OF THE WORLD into the ground [/B], bankrupted several billion dollar corporations and still took thier bonuses home with them (paid for with public bail out money) and laughed.
The players, by and large, are not jerks, but they are very naive and are being sold a bill of goods by Fehr, IMO. Here's a quote from Winkipedia:
"With the NHL locking out at midnight on September 15, 2012, Fehr has become the only Executive Director to be directly involved in work stoppages in two sports."
It is not hard for a smart lawyer to throw fuel on the testosterone-laden fire of the PA. It is a lot harder to counsel them to compromise FOR THEIR OWN GOOD.
As for vilifying the owners for driving the world economy into the ground...in addition to being a gross distortion, this is just the kind of rhetoric that confuses the players into taking a harsh stance for the wrong reasons. It's fine for us to debate it on the Board, but if that's the kind of crap they are hearing from the PA exec, shame on them.

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09-20-2012, 09:51 AM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
See this is where I keep getting hung up. People are mad at the players for getting paid so much so therefore the players are being jerks...???

But it was the owners that cut the checks. Owners who set the market. Nooobdy expected Webber to get the contract he got, nobody. it was a gobsmack. that is a case of an owner outbidding all the competition. so the owners stab eachother in the back and then blame the players. It's silly.


Owners who use hockey losses as tax breaks to offset thier huge profits in arena managment fees, other non HRR related areas like concessions(7 bux for a beer? are you kidding me) parking, etc. and from thier own unrelated corporate and investment profits. why not lose money on a team. say it's a group of 5 owners and your share of the 35 mil in losses is 6 mill. that loss against a profit on other income might mean as much as 12 million tax deduction. so now how much money did the owner make?

Theese aren't simple business men , they aren't the guys like my dad who owned a store all his life and worked 9-5 and goes home and spent his evening hours doing the books. theese guys thrive on shell corporations and tax deductions and offshore accounts. Theese are the guys who drove the economy OF THE WORLD into the ground , bankrupted several billion dollar corporations and still took thier bonuses home with them (paid for with public bail out money) and laughed.
Just a few points of clarification. I do not blame Shea Weber or his agent for his deal nor do I blame Nashville for matching Philly's offer. It is an example of one of the reasons there is a lock out now IMHO.

Onto your point about owners writing off losses to clarify it is not nearly as attractive as some would think. Letís say the Dallas stars lost $30 million dollars last year but their owner made $50 million dollars in other businesses he owns THAT ARE ASSOCIATED with the Stars for Tax purposes. The owner of the stars would be allowed to deduct up to 30% of his stars net losses against his other earnings. Translation the Stars would have a net after tax loss impact of $20 million dollars (instead of the $30 million). It lessens the blow but I think we can all agree that is pretty ugly. To be clear they receive the same treatment as any other person who owns more than one business but keeps them associated. Now we haven't even gotten around to talking about how poor of an investment the stars are ?

not to nitpick but I believe concessions are part of HRR and most times owners outsource concessions to a third party like Centre plate who pays them a % of gross. My guess is that % of gross would be defined as HRR but I could be wrong.

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09-20-2012, 09:53 AM
  #466
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Is there a link to verify that?? That's insane if true.
I will see what I can dig up my friend.

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09-20-2012, 10:04 AM
  #467
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Not sure I can buy that the owners are the guys driving the world economy into the ground bit. I suppose there are some of the owners that are diversified into the banking economy or some of sub-prime mortgage crap but I wouldn't think that true of the majority of owners.

If we're talking about the evil 1% then I heartily lump the players into that echelon of income as well. Certainly they're not as wealthy as the owners but the notion of them as being part of the 99% that are being exploited by the 1% is laughable.

A new CBA is required to protect the owners from themselves, in a manner of speaking. The loopholes need to be closed so the absurd front or back loaded offers go away. The cap needs to be adjusted so you're not overpaying guys to make the cap floor. Revenue sharing needs to be improved, unfortunately at the expense of the top revenue generators, to improve the health of the league.

But right now I'm hating owners and players equally. Get in the frickin' room. Put a fan representative from each team in the room with the NHLPA and NHL reps and hammer out a deal. Give the fan reps billy clubs and let them use them when either side decides to try and walk out of the room. Most everyone knows the approximate endpoint (50/50) and that in a reasonable situation each side needs to give something (reduced share of HRR from the players, increased revenue sharing from the owners, preferably without rolling back salaries if possible). At least get it done because the crap coming out of both sides right now has to do with PR, not negotiations. The best PR you can get for both sides is getting a deal done so we don't lose any of the regular season.

Buncha jackholes on both sides seeing who can tinkle farther (trying to keep language within boundaries here, sorry if not appropriate).

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09-20-2012, 10:22 AM
  #468
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The second that teams stop trying to out bid each other for players, marginal 4th line plug or superstar, the PA will be off to court to allege collusion. Meanwhile, the PA can essentially collude to tip the playing field towards increasing salaries.

Sounds like an even playing field to me.

Players are not partners with ownership. They are employees. Perhaps even elite employees, given the skill set they are hired for, but they are in no way partners.

"Partners" undertake the same modicum of business risk as each other. Ownership takes all the risk here. What do players risk? Their health, one might say. Fine and valid response... so stop playing hockey and go stock shelves at Walmart, work on the family farm or whatever else you might be qualified for (I doubt it gets you even 1/100th of your NHL salary).

43% to the players is a rediculous proposition? Funny how it isn't so rediculous when ownership has that... and has to pay all the expenses out of it.

In a true partnership, the split would be 50/50 of what is left after all expenses have been accounted for, and players would contribute to the equation all sponsorship and advertising revenue they get from promoting things like Gatorade, etc... ("partners", right?). I imagine that escrow would be a pretty high percentage in this arrangement, but if players continue blowing smoke, this is what they should be willing to accept going forward. It would be interesting to find out what these numbers would work out to.

"But the owners got the deal they wanted last time"... no they didn't. They got what they were able to. Regardless, show me a business person who isn't constantly evaluating and re-evaluating their business plan to see if its working the way they think, or for ways to adjust it to be even better (or account for unforseen circumstances). To say the owners are complaining about "their" deal is assinine and displays a clear lack of understanding about how to be successful in business.

Nobody wears the white hat in this. Both sides want as much as they can get... players offering fake platitudes to the sheeple fans who just want hockey to be played. Players need to realize that the average fan can't possibly relate to someone who earns more in one game than they do in a whole year. Most people can relate to an owner; we have more experience/exposure to them - everyone either works for a company with owners, or is an owner of a company themselves.

In Winnipeg, players would be wise to shut the hell up in my opinion. In this market I believe most of the people spending $ on the team, whether that be tickets or merchandise, puts ownership up on a pedestal; without them we wouldn't have the team. Players have already shown that "saying all the right things" aside, they will up and leave at the drop of a hat (Glass, Mason as examples).

Sooner or later both sides will tire of their feedbags being empty. A deal will be struck. Hockey will be back. Let's hope that deal is a good one for small markets like Winnipeg.


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09-20-2012, 10:26 AM
  #469
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Agree 100% with buggs and broinwhyteridge.

Great posts.

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09-20-2012, 10:36 AM
  #470
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Agree 100% with buggs and broinwhyteridge.

Great posts.
x 2

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09-20-2012, 10:38 AM
  #471
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This.

And I stand by the PA. I'm union and regardless of how much money you make unioners stand together. No company with a profit margin like the NHL's would ever ask their employees to take a 17% decrease in salary.
I'm technically in one of the top 10 biggest Canadian unions and I would never say something as blind or uneducated as that (in fact for the most part I'm anti-union but that isn't for here or now)

WHAT PROFIT MARGIN...
the profit margin for the NHL has been estimated at under 3%
Profit =/= Margin

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09-20-2012, 10:39 AM
  #472
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I think you are wasting time trying to argue with s1g; he sounds like your typical Randroid.

I notice a lot of people are demonizing the NHL/Bettman and sympathizing with the players (at least, people I talk to in real life) because of the typical hero worship that goes on with athletes. Fact is, the NHL has a unique problem in NA sports because the top team's incomes outstrip most of the league by a huge margin. According to this article, the Leafs, Habs and Rangers account for more than half of the league's total income. Since the cap (and the cap floor) is tied to league revenues, the system benefits the rich teams the same way as a free market system would. I mean, the cap floor is nearly $20 million higher than the post-lockout cap! For all the talk about owners talking outta both sides of their mouths, it is largely the big markets that are determining payment inflation in the NHL ($6 mil for Lucic?).

The players are going to win regardless--even if they "lose". How long did it take them to recoup from the last lockout? That's what I find so ridiculous about this whole situation. Especially folks making the "What if your employer cut your earnings by 20%?" argument. We're not talking about subsistence level wage slaves here. In fact, I believe the government is in the process of giving a much worse deal to public-sector unions right now.

In Winnipeg I see a blueprint for the future--a team willing to foster an environment that favours stability and financial sobriety over ridiculous Holmgren-style zeroed-out contracts. Time will tell if their approach is successful, but I see the Enstrom signing in particular as a good sign.

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09-20-2012, 10:42 AM
  #473
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The second that teams stop trying to out bid each other for players, marginal 4th line plug or superstar, the PA will be off to court to allege collusion. Meanwhile, the PA can essentially collude to tip the playing field towards increasing salaries.

Sounds like an even playing field to me.

Players are not partners with ownership. They are employees. Perhaps even elite employees, given the skill set they are hired for, but they are in no way partners.

"Partners" undertake the same modicum of business risk as each other. Ownership takes all the risk here. What do players risk? Their health, one might say. Fine and valid response... so stop playing hockey and go stock shelves at Walmart, work on the family farm or whatever else you might be qualified for (I doubt it gets you even 1/100th of your NHL salary).

43% to the players is a rediculous proposition? Funny how it isn't so rediculous when ownership has that... and has to pay all the expenses out of it.

In a true partnership, the split would be 50/50 of what is left after all expenses have been accounted for, and players would contribute to the equation all sponsorship and advertising revenue they get from promoting things like Gatorade, etc... ("partners", right?). I imagine that escrow would be a pretty high percentage in this arrangement, but if players continue blowing smoke, this is what they should be willing to accept going forward. It would be interesting to find out what these numbers would work out to.

"But the owners got the deal they wanted last time"... no they didn't. They got what they were able to. Regardless, show me a business person who isn't constantly evaluating and re-evaluating their business plan to see if its working the way they think, or for ways to adjust it to be even better (or account for unforseen circumstances). To say the owners are complaining about "their" deal is assinine and displays a clear lack of understanding about how to be successful in business.

Nobody wears the white hat in this. Both sides want as much as they can get... players offering fake platitudes to the sheeple fans who just want hockey to be played. Players need to realize that the average fan can't possibly relate to someone who earns more in one game than they do in a whole year. Most people can relate to an owner; we have more experience/exposure to them - everyone either works for a company with owners, or is an owner of a company themselves.

In Winnipeg, players would be wise to shut the hell up in my opinion. In this market I believe most of the people spending $ on the team, whether that be tickets or merchandise, puts ownership up on a pedestal; without them we wouldn't have the team. Players have already shown that "saying all the right things" aside, they will up and leave at the drop of a hat (Glass, Mason as examples).

Sooner or later both sides will tire of their feedbags being empty. A deal will be struck. Hockey will be back. Let's hope that deal is a good one for small markets like Winnipeg.
Pretty much one of the best things I've read in a while

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09-20-2012, 11:13 AM
  #474
Back in the Bigs
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Originally Posted by broinwhyteridge View Post
In Winnipeg, players would be wise to shut the hell up in my opinion. In this market I believe most of the people spending $ on the team, whether that be tickets or merchandise, puts ownership up on a pedestal; without them we wouldn't have the team. .
.... yeah, tend to agree with this.... probably this quote from Andrew Ladd has lost him some favour with a few Jets fans:

Case in point: Winnipeg Jets' captain Andrew Ladd was asked Wednesday if there were any plans to get more of his teammates together for controlled scrimmages as a unit.

His answer hammered home how divisive the lockout has already become.

"We're locked out," Ladd said. "(Getting more guys in Winnipeg) is helping the Winnipeg Jets... you know what I mean? This is a lockout. Our main priority isn't to stay ready for them, it's more for ourselves."


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09-20-2012, 12:18 PM
  #475
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Originally Posted by Back in the Bigs View Post
.... yeah, tend to agree with this.... probably this quote from Andrew Ladd has lost him some favour with a few Jets fans:

Case in point: Winnipeg Jets' captain Andrew Ladd was asked Wednesday if there were any plans to get more of his teammates together for controlled scrimmages as a unit.

His answer hammered home how divisive the lockout has already become.

"We're locked out," Ladd said. "(Getting more guys in Winnipeg) is helping the Winnipeg Jets... you know what I mean? This is a lockout. Our main priority isn't to stay ready for them, it's more for ourselves."

And this is exactly how the Owners will win this lockout (if there is such a thing as a winner/loser). By having Bettman and Daly being the only mouths out there for the NHL side and having 750+ mouths out there for the PA side, eventually the players will start to say things, tweet things etc until they start to form a divide and eventually the PA will crack.

Of course, there is the chance that some owners start to open their mouths and ruin it for themselves but I think they are well aware that the odds are in their favour.

Twitter, internet, radio, tv are wonderful mediums to utilize to get your message out. It is also a double-edged sword as you have to be careful what messages you send out.

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