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Old
10-17-2012, 12:10 PM
  #776
Warhead77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpgsilver View Post
I've supported the owners for a while, but I'm starting to actually dislike the players union. I just don't see any urgency in their approach. I'm tired of their PR games rather than negotiations. For instance, I love Andrew Ladd as a player and as a leader but when he talks about the CBA I cringe. The players just have been unreasonable throughout this entire process and I'm tired of it.
I agree about Ladd.

He has taken some shots at the owners, which IMO, are indirect shots at his current employer TNSE/Jets.

For that he should be stripped of his captaincy for such idiotic comments.

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10-17-2012, 12:26 PM
  #777
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Man, they gotta get the CBA done...

the dudes on 1290 have been reduced to regailing listeners with stories of their own gloried past to fill the time!

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10-17-2012, 12:35 PM
  #778
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The NHL released the proposal to the media so the players can read it for themselves. This will start to split the union. Hainsey will vote to reject, Little, Jokinen, Slater will vote in favor. But a vote won't happen until the 11th hour which is typical for any ratification vote. What happens between now and then will be fun to watch. Players will mouth off on Twitter and make themselves look stupid. fehr will continue in his quest to reject any offer from Bettman because if he does his ego will implode. I think the majority of players want to sign and get to camp without losing any money, they are the votes that will preserve an 82 game season.

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10-17-2012, 12:35 PM
  #779
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Ladd, and any other players that publicly state their thoughts about how they're getting screwed and how hard done by thry are just come across as self important a-holes to most fans..
how they feel they're 'advancing their cause' by doing so is hard to imagine... obviously trying to impress other players because it falls on deaf ears elsewhere, IMO
the smart ones keep their yaps shut and let the process play out

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10-17-2012, 01:01 PM
  #780
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Originally Posted by Jets Fly Forever View Post
In the letter, which breaks down a summary of the NHL offer, Fehr writes the following:

- "Simply put, the owners' new proposal, while not quite as Draconian as their previous proposals, still represents enormous reductions in player salaries and individual contracting rights. As you will see, at the 5 per cent industry growth rate the owners predict, the salary reduction over six years exceeds $1.6 billion. What do the owners offer in return?"

- "The proposal does represent movement from their last negotiating position, but still represents very large, immediate and continuing concessions by players to owners, in salary and benefits (the Players' Share) and in individual player contracting rules."

On some of the specific aspects of the NHL proposal:

- "They want to "clarify" HRR definition and rules. It is not immediately clear what this means, but so far all of their ideas in this regard have had the effect of reducing HRR, and thereby lowering salaries."

- "The Players' Share is reduced to 50 per cent from 57 per cent immediately -- this season. This is a reduction in the share of 12.3 per cent. On last year's revenue numbers, this would mean that players' salaries would be cut by about $231 million."

- "The proposal includes a "Make Whole" provision, to compensate players for the anticipated reduction in absolute dollars from last year (2011-12), to this year and next year. However, it would work like this. The Players Share in subsequent years would be reduced so that this "Make Whole" payment would be made. It is players paying players, not owners paying players. That is, players are "made whole" for reduced salaries in one year by reducing their salaries in later years."

- "Finally, they also proposed that the players could appeal supplemental or commissioner discipline to a neutral arbitration, on a "clearly erroneous" standard, which, as a practical manner, makes it very unlikely that any decision would be overturned."


Sad panda indeed.
memo to Don:

WE CAN DO THE MATH..........when the NHL offer was tabled that has the players moving from a 57-43 split of HRR to 50-50 we can figure out that its going to add up to LESS MONEY for the players "as a percentage of HRR".

You don't like redefined HRR then negotiate, you don't like the make whole provisions negotiate. You don't like the HRR split, or the speed of the transition, or ELC provisions, escalator clauses.....etc etc NEGOTIATE!!!!!

I suggest you get the boys together and COUNTER OFFER or you could just stay the course, have a group hug, and keep complaining about how you gave at the office in 2005?

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Old
10-17-2012, 01:11 PM
  #781
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I spent a few weeks in the southern states this summer on vacation. There is still a very difficult business environment in many states, where hockey isn't exactly the #1 sport. I find the players stance a bit disconnected from the world today. Many industries are hurting and further harm to NHL teams based in the US will undoubtedly occur, if a 'good' deal isn't made quickly.

Now I understand the record growth of NHL revenue - explained primarily by the strength of the Cdn dollar and Cdn teams. If the Cdn dollar starts to fall, those record revenues will plummet.

IMO, there needs to be a drag on player salaries in the NHL - its not much different than other businesses. We have seen pay freezes and concessions with many other CBAs - and for now, I feel the NHLPA should as well. But, the NHLPA wants no part of that, which people can understand. But I personally have absolutely ZERO support for the players in this battle. ZERO.

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10-17-2012, 01:18 PM
  #782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back in the Bigs View Post
Ladd, and any other players that publicly state their thoughts about how they're getting screwed and how hard done by thry are just come across as self important a-holes to most fans..
how they feel they're 'advancing their cause' by doing so is hard to imagine... obviously trying to impress other players because it falls on deaf ears elsewhere, IMO
the smart ones keep their yaps shut and let the process play out
I love Ladd as our captain and I think he is a genuinely good guy but his statements go a long way to showing us how out of step some of the players are if they really think Joe fan is going to feel their pain.

being pissed off because your boss is asking you to step down to the turbo Porsche instead of the Ferrari that you had gotten use to is not something that makes all the other working stiffs feel you're being wronged! I have one huge piece of advice for our captain because I like him, if Andrew wants to garner public support...........Shhhhhhhhhhhh!

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10-17-2012, 01:42 PM
  #783
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Originally Posted by New Jets View Post
I agree about Ladd.

He has taken some shots at the owners, which IMO, are indirect shots at his current employer TNSE/Jets.

For that he should be stripped of his captaincy for such idiotic comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I love Ladd as our captain and I think he is a genuinely good guy but his statements go a long way to showing us how out of step some of the players are if they really think Joe fan is going to feel their pain.

being pissed off because your boss is asking you to step down to the turbo Porsche instead of the Ferrari that you had gotten use to is not something that makes all the other working stiffs feel you're being wronged! I have one huge piece of advice for our captain because I like him, if Andrew wants to garner public support...........Shhhhhhhhhhhh!
I think we should go easy on Ladd, Toews and others who we know are good guys, but who have (mis)spoken publicly. They are not schooled in this business and are doing the wrong thing for all the right reasons. In my personal experience, even associations of educated professionals can be misled by forceful, persuasive Executive Directors with huge egos. I have said this ad nauseum, but I am VERY concerned about the power and influence that Fehr wields over these kids.

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10-17-2012, 01:47 PM
  #784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I love Ladd as our captain and I think he is a genuinely good guy but his statements go a long way to showing us how out of step some of the players are if they really think Joe fan is going to feel their pain.

being pissed off because your boss is asking you to step down to the turbo Porsche instead of the Ferrari that you had gotten use to is not something that makes all the other working stiffs feel you're being wronged! I have one huge piece of advice for our captain because I like him, if Andrew wants to garner public support...........Shhhhhhhhhhhh!
Agreed. I'm sick of hearing Ladd on the radio lately. Maybe he feels obligated to provide some sort of answers to the reporters - regardless of whether or not he is perceived as out of touch.

My advice to Mr. Ladd until this is resolved. When asked a question about the lockout, reply with "no comment"

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10-17-2012, 02:03 PM
  #785
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I'm not annoyed because I feel he's misinformed. That's understandable, this is far from his area of expertise, and when asked a question he may not be able to answer it eloquently. My frustration is the shots he and other players are taking at the owners. I don't want to hear how you think they're evil, or trying to screw you. Address the issues when asked, but be above the pettiness. Its not constructive, it feels manipulative. Unfortunately for the players, most people see through rhetoric.

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10-17-2012, 02:39 PM
  #786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpgsilver View Post
I'm not annoyed because I feel he's misinformed. That's understandable, this is far from his area of expertise, and when asked a question he may not be able to answer it eloquently. My frustration is the shots he and other players are taking at the owners. I don't want to hear how you think they're evil, or trying to screw you. Address the issues when asked, but be above the pettiness. Its not constructive, it feels manipulative. Unfortunately for the players, most people see through rhetoric.


Yeah, I hear you and have been plenty pissed off at the players myself, depending on the day. Today, I'm feeling as if it's the players who are being manipulated by their own ED. He's probably telling Ladd et al, "You're leaders, you're captains, get out there and lead, the stakes are high, the time is now.....blah, blah blah".
These guys are responding like it's game 7 of the Stanley Cup and why would they do otherwise? They are completely unsophisticated.
And I agree with you that most of us see through the rhetoric. Sadly, the players themselves do not.

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10-17-2012, 03:28 PM
  #787
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So much for NHL hockey in November. The Union are a bunch of greedy, idiots that have no urgency to get the game going. Fehr will not agree to any offer because he wants the NHL to agree to HIS terms. I am 100% on the owners side, the players are coming out as villains.

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10-17-2012, 04:02 PM
  #788
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I'm still holding out hope that a deal gets done in time for a nov start and full sched of games. I think there will be some bickering back and forth between now and early next week and then they'll come to an agreement...

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Old
10-17-2012, 04:17 PM
  #789
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Originally Posted by SensibleGuy View Post
I'm still holding out hope that a deal gets done in time for a nov start and full sched of games. I think there will be some bickering back and forth between now and early next week and then they'll come to an agreement...
I HOPE there will be soem bickering back and forth between now and early next week and then they'll come to an agreement... i don't think they will...but that's just because the latest news is dire.....

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10-17-2012, 04:25 PM
  #790
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How were they asking for raises? They were willing to give up HRR but not a ROLLBACK in salary. How is that asking for raises?

It's not the players faults that these teams are paying them retarded amounts of money. If they can't afford to pay them then they shouldn't own a ****ing team. End of story. I have no sympathy whatsoever for a bunch of greedy ass owners whom most don't give a rats ass about hockey or even know anything about hockey. The only owners I respect are TSNE because they were fans and are committed to their city.
This is just incorrect. Yes, there are owners (corporations) that are not in the hockey business for the sport. However, if you really look at the ownership in the NHL a majority of them are big hockey fans and are absolutely not in it for the money.

In a league where only 10 teams are in the black, why would you think a businessman with any intelligence would invest millions to own a team? These guys love the sport.

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Old
10-17-2012, 04:48 PM
  #791
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How were they asking for raises? They were willing to give up HRR but not a ROLLBACK in salary. How is that asking for raises?

It's not the players faults that these teams are paying them retarded amounts of money. If they can't afford to pay them then they shouldn't own a ****ing team. End of story. I have no sympathy whatsoever for a bunch of greedy ass owners whom most don't give a rats ass about hockey or even know anything about hockey. The only owners I respect are TSNE because they were fans and are committed to their city.
Well they can't exactly say hey as a group lets offer these players lower contracts it's collusion. You want all the owners out of the league that can't afford to pay massive salaries? Lol there are not going to many left unless they are in the business of losing money.

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10-17-2012, 04:55 PM
  #792
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Ladd is about to be on H&L on 1290

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Old
10-17-2012, 05:03 PM
  #793
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Well they can't exactly say hey as a group lets offer these players lower contracts it's collusion. You want all the owners out of the league that can't afford to pay massive salaries? Lol there are not going to many left unless they are in the business of losing money.
Plus think about it...
You lose the "dead weight" then revenues will sky rocket per team... which means the contracts will rocket at the same rate relative to revenue that they were raising to before... meaning the floor will move up faster than revenues.
Then add in the fact that the Jets' arena is sold out, the only way to really boost revenues gate wise is raising ticket prices....
...so when you add those together, you don't change anything except dropping the teams losing money before and all of a sudden the Jets' are either having sky rocketing ticket prices or become one of the new teams in the red

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10-17-2012, 05:09 PM
  #794
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I still don't like the owners.

The players are the only reasons why they have teams to own in the first place. I was against the players last time. I'm 100% with them this time. They deserve every penny they get for what they put their bodies through day in day out and what kind of toll it takes on their family life. There needs to be more parity in the NHL, but my opinion is to get rid of a bunch of teams that I think are useless which neither the NHL nor NHLPA would agree with me on.
So what would you prefer? A 12% rollback in salary, or losing 'a bunch of teams?'. Because losing 'a bunch of teams' might mean 12% of NHL'ers losing their jobs altogether. Not to mention several hundred operational staff losing their jobs, and fans losing their teams.

The league had a total operational income of about $120 million last year if sources are to be trusted. You might be thinking, 'Well that's great, each owner made $4 million!'. Well not really. Toronto accounted for more than $80 million of that. Montreal about $47, and the the Rangers about $41. And the reason that doesn't add up to $120 million is because 18 or so teams were in the red.

'Just have the rich teams share more!' isn't a solution - RSS isn't going to fix this by itself. You can't have 3 or 4 successful teams prop up half the leagues' teams. That's not a solid business model.

I was against the players last lockout too, and remain that way now. In 2003 it was ridiculous - $1.9 billion in revenue, but player salaries were $1.5 billion. Salaries consumed 75% of revenue, and what was left had to cover operational costs of about $673 million if I remember. Working out to an overall league operational loss of $273 million. Which means if you were an 'average' NHL owner back then, it cost you $9 million that year to own and operate a team, while you paid every guy on your roster about $2 million.

While no player has ever lost money while playing an NHL season, it's a coin-toss as to whether an owner will make anything in the same time-frame. You can argue that players assume all of physical risk of being on the ice. But owners assume 100% of the financial risk and compensate their players very well regardless.

'But they're billionaires!'. I argue that overall wealth of the owners shouldn't be a consideration when negotiating a CBA. I always say these guys are billionaires, yes...but not because they own an NHL team. They are billionaires despite it.

I'm for the solution that might help Winnipeg with cost-certainty, help retain it's team long-term, without looking for a bigger handout from the Torontos and New Yorks. I don't want the Jets to ever need to qualify for RSS. Or hypothetically be forced to raise ticket prices to meet rising operating costs. Lower the costs - the largest portion of which will always be player salaries.

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10-17-2012, 07:50 PM
  #795
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After the owners offer yesterday our ST group already started talking about when to hold our ticket draft. Today I am getting that "oh ****" feeling again. If the NHLPA comes back with some BS proposal that doesn't work off the owners proposal we will not be seeing hockey live for a long long time.

On a side note on the business of hockey board there is a poll going on who do you support the owners or NHLPA. Last I looked it was running at 82 % for the owners. My guess Winnipeg fans would be running higher than this. It has been a while since I've talked to someone who is pro NHLPA and I'm a union guy.

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10-17-2012, 08:18 PM
  #796
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I've said it from the beginning, but I'll say it again; Donald Fehr is in the process of ruining the game. He's worked up the players into a perverse sense of entitlement and he's going to actually make it worse for them in the long run. It's really too bad.

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10-17-2012, 08:54 PM
  #797
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the dudes on 1290 have been reduced to regailing listeners with stories of their own gloried past to fill the time!
Rick Ralph's story WAS pretty good.

That being said, old stories from them is better than the "softwood lumber debate" on CJOB.

Remember when a dollar used to cost a nickel?

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10-17-2012, 08:54 PM
  #798
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
I think we should go easy on Ladd, Toews and others who we know are good guys, but who have (mis)spoken publicly. They are not schooled in this business and are doing the wrong thing for all the right reasons. In my personal experience, even associations of educated professionals can be misled by forceful, persuasive Executive Directors with huge egos. I have said this ad nauseum, but I am VERY concerned about the power and influence that Fehr wields over these kids.
Yea scelaton I get more frustrated than mad and it's because I like Andrew and I think he should be taking a pass on this rather than taking the bait. He has become almost the pseudo spokesperson for the Jets and he's coming across out of tune with the fans and I know he doesn't get it.......I feel like its bugs bunny and that cane should be coming out from stage left and giving our captain the hook for his own good.


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10-17-2012, 08:59 PM
  #799
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Plus think about it...
You lose the "dead weight" then revenues will sky rocket per team... which means the contracts will rocket at the same rate relative to revenue that they were raising to before... meaning the floor will move up faster than revenues.
Then add in the fact that the Jets' arena is sold out, the only way to really boost revenues gate wise is raising ticket prices....
...so when you add those together, you don't change anything except dropping the teams losing money before and all of a sudden the Jets' are either having sky rocketing ticket prices or become one of the new teams in the red
But isn't HRR based on overall revenues? So you drop a few teams - Phoenix, Florida, NY Islanders, and Columbus - and the revenue they contribute to the total is gone. Could mean $200+ million a year of HRR.

If it was based on profit, then sure, dropping teams makes it more profitable, but league revenues would decrease, no? Not to mention the number of jobs lost. Isn't both bad for the players?

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10-17-2012, 09:09 PM
  #800
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Lawless was basically saying to everybody who was raking Ladd over the coals after being on H&L, that whether you like what Ladd has to say or not (and pretty much nobody does), at least Ladd's got the nads to come on radio and talk about it, unlike Hainsey who has ignored daily requests to be on the show....
I'm thinking, probably because he's more involved in it, Hainsey's been specifically told not to give interviews?
regardless, I guess Ladd doesn't care that his repect level with many fans drops every time he voices his opinion


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