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10-17-2012, 09:43 PM
  #801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back in the Bigs View Post
Lawless was basically saying to everybody who was raking Ladd over the coals after being on H&L, that whether you like what Ladd has to say or not (and pretty much nobody does), at least Ladd's got the nads to come on radio and talk about it, unlike Hainsey who has ignored daily requests to be on the show....
I'm thinking, probably because he's more involved in it, Hainsey's been specifically told not to give interviews?
regardless, I guess Ladd doesn't care that his repect level with many fans drops every time he voices his opinion
Ron could have a gag order or he's just smart enough to know that nothing much good can come of it. I respect the roll The Haines has as a player Rep and it's an important part of the process and I am sure he would be really busy keeping his teammates informed on the negociation. I wish Andrew would take a page out of Hainsey's PR playbook.

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10-17-2012, 10:44 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Plus think about it...
You lose the "dead weight" then revenues will sky rocket per team... which means the contracts will rocket at the same rate relative to revenue that they were raising to before... meaning the floor will move up faster than revenues.
Then add in the fact that the Jets' arena is sold out, the only way to really boost revenues gate wise is raising ticket prices....
...so when you add those together, you don't change anything except dropping the teams losing money before and all of a sudden the Jets' are either having sky rocketing ticket prices or become one of the new teams in the red
You do realize that "dropping the team's losing money" also results in dropping 23+ jobs per team for the NHLPA. You really think that is a position that would result in support from the membership? Not happening...

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10-17-2012, 10:47 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
Ron could have a gag order or he's just smart enough to know that nothing much good can come of it. I respect the roll The Haines has as a player Rep and it's an important part of the process and I am sure he would be really busy keeping his teammates informed on the negociation. I wish Andrew would take a page out of Hainsey's PR playbook.
Ladd needs to realize that if the league doesn't alter the HRR percentages, then there will be teams that no longer can exist...which of the 3rd/4th line of the Jets is Ladd willing to see lose their job due to contraction?

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10-17-2012, 10:49 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
Ron could have a gag order or he's just smart enough to know that nothing much good can come of it. I respect the roll The Haines has as a player Rep and it's an important part of the process and I am sure he would be really busy keeping his teammates informed on the negociation. I wish Andrew would take a page out of Hainsey's PR playbook.
Hainsey was on the show early on, but really, he doesn't have anything to say, and probably isn't allowed to speak his mind, contrary to Fehr's press releases and media manipulation stating essentially 'players aren't under gag orders like the NHL side is so look them they're so evil!'

Ah well.

Anyone else notice Dollarama has Winnipeg Jets penants now? $2.

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10-17-2012, 11:09 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Lobotomizer View Post
You do realize that "dropping the team's losing money" also results in dropping 23+ jobs per team for the NHLPA. You really think that is a position that would result in support from the membership? Not happening...
I wasn't being pro contraction :s
I was saying that if they don't fix the split and team sharing to a create a more stable model the floor will continue to rise at a faster rate then the revenue and we'll have new bleeding teams and be back where we started... and that one day that bleeding team could be the Jets (again)

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10-17-2012, 11:24 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
I wasn't being pro contraction :s
I was saying that if they don't fix the split and team sharing to a create a more stable model the floor will continue to rise at a faster rate then the revenue and we'll have new bleeding teams and be back where we started... and that one day that bleeding team could be the Jets (again)
The players want the owners to share revenue...however the players want the current salaries to remain at the same level and therefore want to maintain 57 percent of the HRR. These two will never exist. What do you believe would be the result for the teams bleeding money?

When are we going to hear from Parise and Suter bemoaning the owners for their "draconian" stance?

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10-18-2012, 12:00 AM
  #807
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Originally Posted by Mungman View Post
Player costs are the root cause of why the NHL left Winnipeg in the 90's. After the player strike there was one team govenor that voted against the deal due to a lack of control of player costs, that was Barry Shenkarow. He stated at the time that the deal was bad of the league and the small market teams. After the deal WPG, QC, Hartford all moved, and that terrible deal lead directly to the lockout in the 2000's. Player costs are the single largest driver of ticket prices, without control on this cost the same fate will befall the current incarnation of the Jets.

But, hey, feel free to advocate solely for the underdog millionaires. We're not talking Winnipeg General Strike conditions the players are railing against, it's strictly first world problems here (and the top 0.01% of the first world to top it off).
The root causes also included an arena that was falling apart, a record low loonie and a shotty economy and a ******** owner. Big emphasis on a record low loonie and the economy. Especially the economy in Winnipeg. It isn't like it is now.

I get that without the owners the players wouldn't have a salary to play, but the owners chose to pay these players ridiculous amounts of money without the funds to pay them. But I am sick and tired of the NHL and their ********. And it is ********. They think that fans will keep coming back regardless of how long they go on strike. The NHL thinks fans are stupid and ignorant. Meanwhile at one time or another most of us have either belonged to a union or been affected by a work strike. I'm union and I'm sticking with the players because of how I feel neglected by the NHL and their POS owners who are apart of the BOG. I have long hated them and that won't change. Ticket prices are based on supply and demand, not how much players make. It cost my cousins $100 for 4 tickets in Florida to see the Jets play last year. There is no demand in Florida, so prices won't be as high.

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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
It amazes me that so many people still see this as a battle of the superheros (players) vs the forces of evil (owners), like it was some kind of comic book series. I just watched a few minutes of Michael Landsberg's OTR, where he interviewed a player named Paul Bissonnette. Bissonnette has played 4 seasons in the NHL, has accumulated a grand total of 8 points, 250 penally minutes and has made millions of dollars. Judging from the interview, he is also not exactly a shining example of virtue. The owners don't need a bunch of entitled hockey players to save them from their greed.

Back in the real world, Bettman called this the owners' best offer and i believe him. I doubt they will make any more material concessions and, no doubt, have a number of alternate scenarios planned out. If Fehr continues to brainwash the gullible PA, making them think they are in a fantasy world, fighting bad guys, this could still end badly for them. It'll certainly go down to the wire this time around.
Paul Bissionnette does not make millions of dollars a year. He makes minimum salary and blows it in Vegas every summer. He lives in a shoebox in Scottsdale and lives with three roommates back home in the summer.

And if the NHL was smart, they'd realize that negotiations aren't just about them and that it's a give and take. Both have to compromise and work together. I've been through my own work place negotiations and while I was a student at the UofW when the profs were threatening to strike. Neither Loblaws or the UofW were as hardball as these ****** that run the NHL are being. There are record revenues and they're crying poor. Maybe if they actually moved or contracted problem cities this would never happen. The NHL and some of the players don't give a rats ass about the fans, but without the fans the NHL would be nothing. I believe that the fans need a say in these negotiations but that'll never happen.

I'm at the point where I just want it fixed for good no matter who gets screwed. I'm tired of this BS. No one knows how to fix the NHL and they're whining. Players are whining. It's stupid and frustrating when the NHL owns a team that has NEVER made any money and continues to believe that it'll work in the desert. If it hasn't worked in 15 years then it'll never work. They have owners that don't care about their teams and hire **** management like NYI and Columbus. Players are the only reasons why the league has merchandise revenue. I personally spent a grand at least on the Jets last year but I am never going to buy anything again. I'm tired of giving my money to a league that refuses to fix the problems.

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Old
10-18-2012, 12:11 AM
  #808
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Originally Posted by CanucksnWpg View Post
The root causes also included an arena that was falling apart, a record low loonie and a shotty economy and a ******** owner. Big emphasis on a record low loonie and the economy. Especially the economy in Winnipeg. It isn't like it is now.

I get that without the owners the players wouldn't have a salary to play, but the owners chose to pay these players ridiculous amounts of money without the funds to pay them. But I am sick and tired of the NHL and their ********. And it is ********. They think that fans will keep coming back regardless of how long they go on strike. The NHL thinks fans are stupid and ignorant. Meanwhile at one time or another most of us have either belonged to a union or been affected by a work strike. I'm union and I'm sticking with the players because of how I feel neglected by the NHL and their POS owners who are apart of the BOG. I have long hated them and that won't change. Ticket prices are based on supply and demand, not how much players make. It cost my cousins $100 for 4 tickets in Florida to see the Jets play last year. There is no demand in Florida, so prices won't be as high.



Paul Bissionnette does not make millions of dollars a year. He makes minimum salary and blows it in Vegas every summer. He lives in a shoebox in Scottsdale and lives with three roommates back home in the summer.

And if the NHL was smart, they'd realize that negotiations aren't just about them and that it's a give and take. Both have to compromise and work together. I've been through my own work place negotiations and while I was a student at the UofW when the profs were threatening to strike. Neither Loblaws or the UofW were as hardball as these ****** that run the NHL are being. There are record revenues and they're crying poor. Maybe if they actually moved or contracted problem cities this would never happen. The NHL and some of the players don't give a rats ass about the fans, but without the fans the NHL would be nothing. I believe that the fans need a say in these negotiations but that'll never happen.

I'm at the point where I just want it fixed for good no matter who gets screwed. I'm tired of this BS. No one knows how to fix the NHL and they're whining. Players are whining. It's stupid and frustrating when the NHL owns a team that has NEVER made any money and continues to believe that it'll work in the desert. If it hasn't worked in 15 years then it'll never work. They have owners that don't care about their teams and hire **** management like NYI and Columbus. Players are the only reasons why the league has merchandise revenue. I personally spent a grand at least on the Jets last year but I am never going to buy anything again. I'm tired of giving my money to a league that refuses to fix the problems.
Paul Bissonette makes 725,000 a year...his fault that he is a fool with his money.

To the bolded - you need to remember that without Thompson/Chipman stepping up as prospective owners in the NHL in a market deemed less than lucrative you would never had the ability to spend one dime on Jets merchandise.

You are giving your money to an owner to ensure that you have the ability to watch your team play in the NHL. If you don't want to give the money, don't beetch when the team leaves. If you want the Jets to continue being able to afford higher talent such as the recent signing of Kane, then you will support the team.

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10-18-2012, 12:24 AM
  #809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomizer View Post
Paul Bissonette makes 725,000 a year...his fault that he is a fool with his money.

To the bolded - you need to remember that without Thompson/Chipman stepping up as prospective owners in the NHL in a market deemed less than lucrative you would never had the ability to spend one dime on Jets merchandise.

You are giving your money to an owner to ensure that you have the ability to watch your team play in the NHL. If you don't want to give the money, don't beetch when the team leaves. If you want the Jets to continue being able to afford higher talent such as the recent signing of Kane, then you will support the team.
I will spend it if it just goes to the Jets, Canucks or Pens. I'm saving up to buy a house so for now I'm done, aside from going to games when I get the chance, buying product. I was glad that I spent it, but I'm good until my jerseys fall apart or until they get a third. If the fans are in a market, it's not lucrative. They will be attracting players because of how they run their team. Most players can overlook how a winter is because of how they're treated at their place of employment. If the players don't want to play here then that's their loss. It's amazing here and these Jets won't be leaving. Big part of the reason they left in 96 was because of a piss poor Manitoba economy and a record low loonie.

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10-18-2012, 12:30 AM
  #810
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Originally Posted by CanucksnWpg View Post
I will spend it if it just goes to the Jets, Canucks or Pens. I'm saving up to buy a house so for now I'm done, aside from going to games when I get the chance, buying product. I was glad that I spent it, but I'm good until my jerseys fall apart or until they get a third. If the fans are in a market, it's not lucrative. They will be attracting players because of how they run their team. Most players can overlook how a winter is because of how they're treated at their place of employment. If the players don't want to play here then that's their loss. It's amazing here and these Jets won't be leaving. Big part of the reason they left in 96 was because of a piss poor Manitoba economy and a record low loonie.
Too bad that isn't how revenue from merchandise works...

You don't like the ownership viewpoint - understandable. I believe this is the most twisted group to be running a professional league. Problem is that in order for a market to remain lucrative it requires the fanbase to support it financially. Thompson and Chipman aren't in this for the "joy of hockey".

Winnipeg is a city that requires a sensible agreement between the owners and the players. Winnipeg is not in the position to be given 90 million dollar contracts.

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10-18-2012, 12:37 AM
  #811
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Millionaires fighting billionaires. Don't know about the rest of you but it makes me feel a little crusty to pick sides with either of these guys, both are grinding down for the betterment of their pockets, not the game. It's their right but **** them, the rest of us are dealing with real life.

But how can anyone hold any of this against TNSE? Chipman, Thomson and their gang brought hockey back to Winnipeg. That's all forgotten in one year? Not like Chipman is the one who is controlling the other owners and telling Ed Snider and Jeremy Jacobs how to play hardball. Jets are blessed with great owners. I say appreciate them and if you like having the Jets in Winnipeg then I think you can support them without feeling angry.

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10-18-2012, 01:21 AM
  #812
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Plus think about it...
You lose the "dead weight" then revenues will sky rocket per team... which means the contracts will rocket at the same rate relative to revenue that they were raising to before... meaning the floor will move up faster than revenues.
Then add in the fact that the Jets' arena is sold out, the only way to really boost revenues gate wise is raising ticket prices....
...so when you add those together, you don't change anything except dropping the teams losing money before and all of a sudden the Jets' are either having sky rocketing ticket prices or become one of the new teams in the red
As long as HRR isn't based off of total revenue then yeah pretty much. There is really no good scenario for Winnipeg long term if the players "win" in any sense of the word. I hate to say it but I hope this is the last offer the owners make save for a few minor changes before they just cancel the season. If it means missing a season or even two (yikes if that happened) to give Winnipeg a better chance of remaining a profitable and viable team throughout my lifetime then so be it.

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10-18-2012, 06:37 AM
  #813
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Ticket prices are based on supply and demand, not how much players make. .
You're certainly entitled to your opinion about the league and it's ownership group, and I think most here would agree that the latest proposal isn't going to solve ALL the problems the league has, but to say that player costs aren't directly related to ticket prices - surely you jest!

TNSE didn't set their ticket prices last year because they were 100% sure the demand was going to be as high as it turned out to be.... they set them because they wanted to make sure they covered the costs of owning the team and hopefully return their desired profit margin....
I wonder how are you going to feel when their operating costs go down, but ticket prices don't?
The more their profits go up the better.... I'm not going to begrudge them that. You can bet Chipman and Thompson are hoping this deal goes throuh as is

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10-18-2012, 10:14 AM
  #814
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I am really looking forward to seeing what the NHLPA's counter proposal includes. Bettman/Owners gave a legitimate starting point (which at this point should be a big step forward in these silly incompetent-to-date proposals), so now I want to see if the NHLPA negotiate with that offer or if they propose something completely different. I hope the groundwork has been put in place, and I hope we see some serious efforts in negotiating this newest proposal rather than something out of left field from Fehr/NHLPA.

If we see a serious, negotiated counter proposal today, we may see Hockey November 2nd, in just 2 weeks. If we do not see a serious negotiated counter proposal, then I don't think we're seeing any NHL until at least January. Either we're close (relatively speaking), or we'll miles apart. We'll see.

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10-18-2012, 10:39 AM
  #815
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As long as HRR isn't based off of total revenue then yeah pretty much. There is really no good scenario for Winnipeg long term if the players "win" in any sense of the word. I hate to say it but I hope this is the last offer the owners make save for a few minor changes before they just cancel the season. If it means missing a season or even two (yikes if that happened) to give Winnipeg a better chance of remaining a profitable and viable team throughout my lifetime then so be it.
Thank you. Someone that got my point.
If players "win" it will become a system difficult if not impossible for Winnipeg to exist long term
If there is contraction, as some people have suggested, it just prolongs the inevitable

If costs go higher the only way the Jets can re-act is by raising ticket prices since everything is already as saturated as economically possible for the Peg

For Winnipeg Jets to not go away we need:
A cap floor that is a percentage not fixed rate from ceiling
Better rev share system between teams incase we dip and need it
and most importantly the major costs to go down... since gas prices will never go down this means player salaries... 50/50 split works for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Back in the Bigs View Post

TNSE didn't set their ticket prices last year because they were 100% sure the demand was going to be as high as it turned out to be.... they set them because they wanted to make sure they covered the costs of owning the team and hopefully return their desired profit margin....
Agreed
I'll add in that costs are actually one of the major factors to supply and demand...

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10-18-2012, 10:47 AM
  #816
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Apparently there will be a solid turnout of players today, which tends to make me believe this counter-proposal will not be a good one in terms of what the Owners/Bettman want and have proposed. I feel a turnout (led by Crosby, among others) is one that basically will say "We're still united, this is what we want, and your proposal isn't going to do it."


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Both sides are bringing the big guns today. Big show of support on both sides. #NHL #NHLPA
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Crosby, Toews, Iginla and Staal are among the attendees. #NHLPA
Or, on a more optimistic note, maybe with all of the 'big guns' in attendance on both sides, it'll be a nice PR move for the league. Basically saying, "we're all here, let's get this done". Wishful thinking.

Quote:
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Big name players and owners in T.O for CBA mtng. Jacobs, Leipold, Edwards and Leonsis will flank Bettman and Daly.


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10-18-2012, 11:09 AM
  #817
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Apparently there will be a solid turnout of players today, which tends to make me believe this counter-proposal will not be a good one in terms of what the Owners/Bettman want and have proposed. I feel a turnout (led by Crosby, among others) is one that basically will say "We're still united, this is what we want, and your proposal isn't going to do it."
Definitly agree.... really mad about this. Why negotiate when we can all get together and look united for the media!? That's SURE to drive our point home...

I really hope they manage to get SOMEWHERE on this today. I just don't get how Fehr has the players thinking they can possibly "win". there is no way for them to win. They are never going to get the NHL to agree to their "alternate view".

your at 50-50, that's fair. Ladd mentioned some conessions they thought they deserved. Fine, get rid of everything else and take the god damn 50-50 split, i highly doubt the league is absolutely married to 2 year ELCs and 8 years of FA.

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10-18-2012, 12:13 PM
  #818
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Apparently there will be a solid turnout of players today, which tends to make me believe this counter-proposal will not be a good one in terms of what the Owners/Bettman want and have proposed. I feel a turnout (led by Crosby, among others) is one that basically will say "We're still united, this is what we want, and your proposal isn't going to do it."






Or, on a more optimistic note, maybe with all of the 'big guns' in attendance on both sides, it'll be a nice PR move for the league. Basically saying, "we're all here, let's get this done". Wishful thinking.
I agree.

And so we wait.

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10-18-2012, 12:39 PM
  #819
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Per player source,NHLPA #CBA proposal "should be interesting today because it comes closer to NHL ideology". #TSN
dare we get optimistic?

To be fair this is exactly waht we need to hear, i'm just not quite sure i trust a players interpretation of "close"...

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10-18-2012, 12:57 PM
  #820
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dare we get optimistic?

To be fair this is exactly waht we need to hear, i'm just not quite sure i trust a players interpretation of "close"...
Just read this tweet to. At this point all I am hoping for is that we see a counter-offer that is in the direction of the NHL's offer. In other words, I want to see legitimate negotiations. Once we hit that point, things could get better if both sides truly want this solved in order to begin the season November 2nd.

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10-18-2012, 12:59 PM
  #821
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dare we get optimistic?

To be fair this is exactly waht we need to hear, i'm just not quite sure i trust a players interpretation of "close"...
The problem is that Ward has been so far to the players side that his interpretation of moving toward the owners could mean anything.

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10-18-2012, 01:02 PM
  #822
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That is a good point, wpgsilver.

From this tweet, Andy McDonald seems a bit optimistic. Either it's truthful or it's just bs.


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Looking forward to seeing League's response to todays meeting. Really believe we are moving towards them and quality negotiations have begun

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10-18-2012, 01:02 PM
  #823
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Makes you wonder if Ward's tweets are dictated by Don Fehr? They are soo heavily slanted in the PA's favor.

I'm starting to associated Ward with Healy in terms of ass-clown-ness.

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10-18-2012, 01:04 PM
  #824
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That is a good point, wpgsilver.

From this tweet, Andy McDonald seems a bit optimistic. Either it's truthful or it's just bs.
I wonder if this Andy understands what's going on better than our Andy (Ladd)?

That is a positive tweet... see if it really is.

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10-18-2012, 01:13 PM
  #825
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I can't help it.
I'm getting my hopes up.
It's like deciding to be a fan of any Cleveland sports team. I know I'm gonna be disappointed and hurt, but I want to believe this will get done.

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