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Old
08-12-2012, 09:35 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Getting in a tizzy about who's better defensively between Ian White and Keith Yandle is like freaking out about who's better defensively between Danny Briere and Joffrey Lupul. Hint: They both ****ing suck so much it's not even worth arguing.

Yandle is a far, far superior defenseman than White.

And as for your advanced stats, White's stats where HUGELY inflated by playing with that guy named Lidstrom.
I'm not sure if you mean defensive stats or QUALCOMP as "Advanced stats", and quite frankly don't care. I seriously doubt Lidstrom was pushing White into people to count them as hits, or tripping him so it would be a "Blocked shot".

As for the QUALCOMP, undoubtedly it was raised by Lidstrom, but even if it wasn't it wouldn't be as low as Yandle's.

Once again, Yandle is easily the better offensive defender, but he blows defensively. No, he's not as good as White in that regard, and even if he was, it's not much of a complement to him.

So let me sum it up with what I said from the start:

"Do not want".

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08-12-2012, 09:46 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
He played rather significantly sheltered 5v5 minutes (low relative qualcomp). The problem is that folks notice that, roll their eyes, and subsequently forget to look at PK stats.
Wow, thank goodness you're around to convince us that Helm sucks. I guess we were just deluded before!

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Old
08-12-2012, 10:33 PM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
I'm not sure if you mean defensive stats or QUALCOMP as "Advanced stats", and quite frankly don't care. I seriously doubt Lidstrom was pushing White into people to count them as hits, or tripping him so it would be a "Blocked shot".
Advanced stats meaning Corsi (On, rel qoc), PDO, etc.

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Old
08-12-2012, 11:32 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Squeeven View Post
Sorry Red Wings fans but not trading Darren Helm for Keith Yandle in some sort of deal would be kinda foolish. Holland would love to make a deal like that for a good young defenseman like Yandle.
You don't know what you are talking about.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:54 AM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
I'm not sure if you mean defensive stats or QUALCOMP as "Advanced stats", and quite frankly don't care. I seriously doubt Lidstrom was pushing White into people to count them as hits, or tripping him so it would be a "Blocked shot".
If somebody could do that it would have been Lidstrom

The Perfect Human right... God I am going to miss him

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08-13-2012, 02:34 AM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Wow, thank goodness you're around to convince us that Helm sucks. I guess we were just deluded before!
Truly massive reading comprehension fail here. I was pointing out that folks were displaying a habit of completely overlooking one of the more important parts of Helm's game.

I maintain that he is unrealistically overrated, not that he sucks.

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08-13-2012, 03:22 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Truly massive reading comprehension fail here. I was pointing out that folks were displaying a habit of completely overlooking one of the more important parts of Helm's game.

I maintain that he is unrealistically overrated, not that he sucks.
In that case, thank goodness you're around to convince us that Helm isn't as good as we thought he was. I guess we were just deluded before!

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08-13-2012, 03:34 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
You don't know what you are talking about.
I guess you don't realize that aside from Quincey, Kronwall (who's aging), and White, your team needs all the help it can get on defense. Helm is a key part of your team but you need defense.

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:25 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Squeeven View Post
I guess you don't realize that aside from Quincey, Kronwall (who's aging), and White, your team needs all the help it can get on defense. Helm is a key part of your team but you need defense.
Kronwall is 31...

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Old
08-13-2012, 08:10 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Squeeven View Post
I guess you don't realize that aside from Quincey, Kronwall (who's aging), and White, your team needs all the help it can get on defense. Helm is a key part of your team but you need defense.
Kronwall's 31 and Kindl, Smith + another UFA will round out the bottom 3. It can be said of any team really, other than Burns, Boyle and Stuart, your team needs all the help it can get on defense. See how easy it was?

All kidding aside, Helm is too valuable to even think about trading him. He's a huge piece of the puzzle.

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Old
08-13-2012, 09:21 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by HardingsJockstrap View Post
Kronwall's 31 and Kindl, Smith + another UFA will round out the bottom 3. It can be said of any team really, other than Burns, Boyle and Stuart, your team needs all the help it can get on defense. See how easy it was?
That's cool but we just signed this guy who's really really good at D to a 5 year extension. You may have heard of him.

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Old
08-13-2012, 11:12 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
That's cool but we just signed this guy who's really really good at D to a 5 year extension. You may have heard of him.

This guy? I know he's good.

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Old
08-13-2012, 11:48 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by HardingsJockstrap View Post
Kronwall's 31 and Kindl, Smith + another UFA will round out the bottom 3. It can be said of any team really, other than Burns, Boyle and Stuart, your team needs all the help it can get on defense. See how easy it was?

All kidding aside, Helm is too valuable to even think about trading him. He's a huge piece of the puzzle.
I know your joking but:
Burns (signed long term)
Vlasic (Signed long term)
Stuart (signed fairly long term)
Bruan (RFA)
Demers (RFA)

So 5 out of 6 d-spots are pretty set for the foreseeable future. We've got a #1 and #2 locked up for a long time, and that's the hardest thing to do (cheap too).

Also, while people love to laugh at our prospects, we actually have some very promising NHL ready guys right now:

Irwin
Tennyson
Pelech
Petrecki
Acolatse

Any of those guys could conceivably win a spot out of camp. Behind them we've also got Doherty, Abeltshauser, DeMelo...

The only thing the Sharks really lack on defense is a 2nd unit offensive defensemen long term. However Demers, Braun, Irwin, and Tennyson all could develop into that. Demers has already done it, just had a setback last season.

Basically the Sharks defense is rock solid, for the long term. We really don't need to make any moves in that area except given the right situation to replace Boyle with someone younger and less expensive.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:04 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Basically the Sharks defense is rock solid, for the long term. We really don't need to make any moves in that area except given the right situation to replace Boyle with someone younger and less expensive.
I wouldn't go as far as to say they are rock solid for the long term. There is no guarantee that Boyle plays at his level for beyond a year or two. Those prospects are promising but they are prospects and we all know that anything can happen. Also players like Braun and Demers are everyday NHL players but the Sharks should know as much as anyone that a players game can completely stall or go right off a cliff. Let's see how both of these teams perform on the backend this year before jumping to conclusions about who is set for a long time and who is doomed.

Goaltenders and forwards play int he defensive zone as well and I would say the Wings out class the Sharks in that regard. Both teams are both in a crucial organizational stage. Both teams have high end players and some young guys who look like they could be ready to take over in a few years but nothing is set in stone for either team.

Edit: You also better hope that Stuart's play at the end of the season and playoffs is no indication of his game next year and beyond.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:44 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
I wouldn't go as far as to say they are rock solid for the long term. There is no guarantee that Boyle plays at his level for beyond a year or two. Those prospects are promising but they are prospects and we all know that anything can happen. Also players like Braun and Demers are everyday NHL players but the Sharks should know as much as anyone that a players game can completely stall or go right off a cliff. Let's see how both of these teams perform on the backend this year before jumping to conclusions about who is set for a long time and who is doomed.

Goaltenders and forwards play int he defensive zone as well and I would say the Wings out class the Sharks in that regard. Both teams are both in a crucial organizational stage. Both teams have high end players and some young guys who look like they could be ready to take over in a few years but nothing is set in stone for either team.

Edit: You also better hope that Stuart's play at the end of the season and playoffs is no indication of his game next year and beyond.
That's what Demers did last season, and he was still a serviceable bottom-pairing defenseman. I expect him to have a rebound season and go back to the Demers who dominated the playoffs in 10-11.

As for Stuart, I admit I do share your fears. But I'm personally not counting on him to be anything more than a #4/5. If Stuart has regressed to a bottom-pairing guy, I believe Braun can be a #4 and take those minutes.

I'm not sure what you mean about forwards in the defensive zone, as the only forwards the Sharks have who are no good in the D-zone are Galiardi (below average), Handzus (black hole), and Clowe (lol what defense?). Guys like Pavelski, Marleau, and Thornton are elite defensive players, and guys like Couture, Desjardins, Wingels, Moore, Burish, etc. are very good defensively, and then Havlat is average. We really don't have a problem with forwards committed to defense.

As for goaltending... I'm not a fan of Niemi, but when you consider the GAA at even strength the Sharks put up last season at evens, I'm not concerned. Fix the PK and consider it a win.

But I digress. You're very right about this being a critical season for both the Sharks and the Wings. That's why we argue so much about the direction of the team all the time. I personally think we need to retool, and some think we should just reload and go. I'm sure you guys are in a similar position.

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Old
08-13-2012, 03:35 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
In that case, thank goodness you're around to convince us that Helm isn't as good as we thought he was. I guess we were just deluded before!
I applaud your chutzpah, but not your wit.

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Old
08-13-2012, 03:52 PM
  #267
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Maybe being home will be all the difference in the world and I certainly wish him all the luck in the world, but Brad Stuart is not the same player he was. He has moments where he flashes the Stuart of old, but his last two seasons have been below what I expected and this last post-season he was our worst defender in the Nashville series. You got him at a discount of sorts and I would like to believe he rebounds because like I said I really like the guy but all that shot blocking and hitting seems to be deteriorating Stuart in a quick fashion. He has always had much better foot speed but think of how Murray is starting to look much worse, Stuart has declined also in recent years. He has a lot of NHL mileage, especially with the style game he plays, it is taking a toll.

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Old
08-13-2012, 05:32 PM
  #268
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I know your joking but:
Burns (signed long term)
Vlasic (Signed long term)
Stuart (signed fairly long term)
Bruan (RFA)
Demers (RFA)

So 5 out of 6 d-spots are pretty set for the foreseeable future. We've got a #1 and #2 locked up for a long time, and that's the hardest thing to do (cheap too).

Also, while people love to laugh at our prospects, we actually have some very promising NHL ready guys right now:

Irwin
Tennyson
Pelech
Petrecki
Acolatse

.
Out of that group Tennyson has the best shot but he's even borderline. What's most frightening about the Sharks prospects is that he's one of their best and he's a college fa. And he's no Dekeyser or Schultz.

The Sharks better hope Vlaasic and Burns have really long and productive careers.

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08-14-2012, 12:21 AM
  #269
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Out of that group Tennyson has the best shot but he's even borderline. What's most frightening about the Sharks prospects is that he's one of their best and he's a college fa. And he's no Dekeyser or Schultz.

The Sharks better hope Vlaasic and Burns have really long and productive careers.
Personally I have high hopes for Acolatse. He's physical, he'll stand up for his teammates and he's got a good shot.

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08-14-2012, 12:29 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Out of that group Tennyson has the best shot but he's even borderline. What's most frightening about the Sharks prospects is that he's one of their best and he's a college fa. And he's no Dekeyser or Schultz.

The Sharks better hope Vlaasic and Burns have really long and productive careers.
Boyle was a college fa too, it's not really that relevant. Sure the odds are better for drafted players making the NHL, but clearly the ceiling isn't much higher if any.

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08-14-2012, 12:46 AM
  #271
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Personally I have high hopes for Acolatse. He's physical, he'll stand up for his teammates and he's got a good shot.
Me too. With Burns-Vlasic-Braun-Demers as guys who could form a middling top-4, we only need 4/5/6 types. And I really like Acolatse, and not just because he's a Bay Area boy.

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08-14-2012, 12:51 AM
  #272
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I know its off topic, but what would Detroit fans think of a Helm for Hansen swap?

Both fan favorites and comparable players, but van could reallly use that 3C position

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08-14-2012, 01:14 AM
  #273
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I know its off topic, but what would Detroit fans think of a Helm for Hansen swap?

Both fan favorites and comparable players, but van could reallly use that 3C position
Not a terrible offer, I would pass in my opinion. But I am not going to pretend that is unreasonable, my guess is some Wings fans will use stronger statements. Helm is very valueable to the Wings. If Sheahan has a dynamite year in the AHL though you have to wonder what that does to his value in terms of how the Wings think. A lot of people don't think Sheahan has the offensive abilities to become a second line player. But you have to think he is more than a fourth line player soon. That will create an interesting dyanamic as Helm will have a decent amount of value. Still think most fans will prefer a shift to the wing even at that point. But I can see one pushing the other one out of town eventually.

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08-14-2012, 08:23 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I know its off topic, but what would Detroit fans think of a Helm for Hansen swap?

Both fan favorites and comparable players, but van could reallly use that 3C position
I pass simply because Helm is too valuable to the Red Wings.

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08-14-2012, 09:02 AM
  #275
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To be fair about the Red wings and Sharks defense this is where i rate them

Very good defenders (#1 or #2 guys):

SJ Det
Boyle Kronwall
Burns

Medium Defenders, (can play 20+ minutes, can be very good at certain aspects of the game... completely acceptable #3 d men or #2 on a bad team.)

SJ Det
Stuart Quincey
Vlasic Smith (Rookie) - He is likely this good

Acceptable NHL defensemen (#4 to #5 D-men)

SJ Det
Braun White (without lidstrom)
Demers Ericsson
Kindl


Now I do not know the SJ team as well as Det. So i may have missed your #6 or #7 guy.

The Red Wings defense is OK, still equal to many other teams in the league, it just isn't elite anymore.

But the red wings are not MASSIVELY weak. They are missing Lidstrom, and its a hit. But... We can't go around trading talent to replace him, because our forward lines are not that strong.
It is what it is. We needed to add talent for FREE, through FA. Unfortunetly we struck out, and now it will be about giving some of our prospects a chance (I hope)
Hopefully people will get to see alot more about
Nyquist, Tatar, Smith. If these guys flop, and the DRW almost miss or god forbid do miss the playoffs this year, then its going to be gut check time and strange roads ahead for our organization.

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