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It's also completely unjustified and absurdly premature. Kris Draper's situation is a bit of a rare one, and while I understand why he was beloved, trying to "slot in" Helm as the "next" Draper - and particularly to attach value to him as though he definitely will be the next Kris Draper - is indicative of a desire to create legends where none exist, equivalent to assuming that Jarnkrok, Smith, and Nyquist are absolutely going to be Hall of Fame players and anyone who suggests otherwise gets accused of not comprehending the Red Wing Way (or worse, accused of knowing nothing about hockey).
I get that he's a good quality hockey player. Heck, I think he'd be a great fit on the Jackets considering how we're reassembling the team, and would love to have him. I think he'll do very well for the Wings. But he's getting Elite Hero Worship for being a guy who might be similar to a quality roleplayer who through a series of unique circumstances was part of four Cup-winning teams. It's patently absurd. It's the same sort of delusional fantasy-building that makes folks insist that Chris Osgood needs to be in the Hall of Fame. It reminds me of Jackets fans who insist that the first number we retire should be that of David Vyborny.
Lets put this in a very simple to understand way:
Darren Helm is an amazing third line centre.
He does not provide offence, but provides everything you would ever want from a defensive centre.
He is FAST... REALLY FAST
He backchecks
He Forechecks
He wins faceoffs
He PK's
He draws penalties
He doesn't take dumb penalties.
Lets be honest here... this is a rare "low value" player.
He is already of the same mold as Kris Draper. Kris Draper is a defensive specialist... Helm already is the same thing.
He isn't worth a Clowe, or a Pavelski, or a Couture. Without a Filppula and a franzen, it doesn't matter if you have a defensive guy on a losing team or not. But on a winning team he is great.
The DRW may be falling in terms of talent. Maybe our kids pan out, maybe they don't. Maybe we will start missing the playoffs, maybe we won't.
But we will not trade our young talent BECAUSE, if we did, we are still not likely to win a SC right now. NOT BY TRADES. We don't have enough talent.
We needed FA signings... and in lieu of that... we need kids to do well. Basically we just don't want to trade anyone.
I do not want JayBo
I do not want Boyle
If we can get him for FREE, sure, they are good players, but
the DRW do not NEED these guys to compete, because anyone we trade away makes us weaker.
We have a Weak Defense, a Weak offense, and Two Amazing superstars that continue to make this team look much better than it really is. Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
If the kids pan out... we are better than that... question is, will they
So Demers and a 2nd for Helm? Demers is a year younger and is on route to be a top 4 D and a great puck mover on the PP. Willing to throw in something else besides a 2nd to land Helm.
I think that would be closer, value wise but not what we need.
We need shutdown D.
We just signed Helm to an extension and the term and money are good for Wings. Not very Wings-like to trade him basically immediately.
We need Helm. Desperately, we need he's speed and heart. Playoffs showed to an extent what we miss if we lose him. Babcock said that 'Helm is the best 3rd C in the league'. I don't agree with him though, lol.
We wouldn't have no one at 3C. Cleary, maybe. Abdelkader isn't good enough, Sheahan isn't ready, Emmerton, I don't think he could do it.
I think that would be closer, value wise but not what we need.
We need shutdown D.
We just signed Helm to an extension and the term and money are good for Wings. Not very Wings-like to trade him basically immediately.
We need Helm. Desperately, we need he's speed and heart. Playoffs showed to an extent what we miss if we lose him. Babcock said that 'Helm is the best 3rd C in the league'. I don't agree with him though, lol.
We wouldn't have no one at 3C. Cleary, maybe. Abdelkader isn't good enough, Sheahan isn't ready, Emmerton, I don't think he could do it.
Yes, he is a great 3rd line C, that's what the Sharks lack. I'm sorry but I wouldn't give up Braun for Helm. Braun > Demers and on his way to being stellar. Demers is actually kinda like Holmstrom and throws big hits and will put up good points. Maybe Demers + Nick Petrecki(1st rounder, shutdown d-man) for Helm + 3rd?
Yes, he is a great 3rd line C, that's what the Sharks lack. I'm sorry but I wouldn't give up Braun for Helm. Braun > Demers and on his way to being stellar. Demers is actually kinda like Holmstrom and throws big hits and will put up good points. Maybe Demers + Nick Petrecki(1st rounder, shutdown d-man) for Helm + 3rd?
You mean Kronwall?
And honestly, I don't think I'd do a package of Demers for Helm. Demers solidifies the Sharks d-core, whereas Helm won't make-or-break the 3rd line.
Darren Helm is an amazing third line centre.
He does not provide offence, but provides everything you would ever want from a defensive centre.
He is FAST... REALLY FAST
He backchecks
He Forechecks
He wins faceoffs
He PK's
He draws penalties
He doesn't take dumb penalties.
Lets be honest here... this is a rare "low value" player.
Nearly all of the above (he's not as fast) are also true of our own Derek MacKenzie. We like DMac, but we don't consider him to be among our most untouchable players - and we don't have any obvious leaguewide recognized superstars to list above him as an excuse.
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It's also completely unjustified and absurdly premature. Kris Draper's situation is a bit of a rare one, and while I understand why he was beloved, trying to "slot in" Helm as the "next" Draper - and particularly to attach value to him as though he definitely will be the next Kris Draper - is indicative of a desire to create legends where none exist, equivalent to assuming that Jarnkrok, Smith, and Nyquist are absolutely going to be Hall of Fame players and anyone who suggests otherwise gets accused of not comprehending the Red Wing Way (or worse, accused of knowing nothing about hockey).
I get that he's a good quality hockey player. Heck, I think he'd be a great fit on the Jackets considering how we're reassembling the team, and would love to have him. I think he'll do very well for the Wings. But he's getting Elite Hero Worship for being a guy who might be similar to a quality roleplayer who through a series of unique circumstances was part of four Cup-winning teams. It's patently absurd. It's the same sort of delusional fantasy-building that makes folks insist that Chris Osgood needs to be in the Hall of Fame. It reminds me of Jackets fans who insist that the first number we retire should be that of David Vyborny.
Kris Draper thinks they play a lot alike and mentored the kid. Helm already has won a cup, coming up for the AHL for two straight post-season runs to the finals. That is a part of why he is beloved. He was big deal before he started playing regular season NHL games.
I don't think Jarnkrok, Smith and Nyquist are hall of fame players, but man I hope at least one becomes an all-star talent.
Chris Osgood is a hall of famer in my opinion luckily for you even half the Wings fan-base sells the guy short and doesn't believe this. Welcome to a fan-base that hates a three time cup winner with two as starter that cleared 400 wins and doesn't want to retire Fedorov's number. Osgood career numbers are right on par with a couple of guys from his generation notably Belfour and him have very similar numbers. Although Eddie has a couple of Vezinas awards I think Osgood was cheated out of never being in the running for in part because of lack of support even in his home market. Better yet look at Osgood's post-season numbers you will find him shockingly high, and not just wins, but save percentage, shutouts it is across the board.
To say the Wings aren't hard on their players is pretty off base. It is a tough place to play, Detroit would have spat out Rick Nash a long time ago for one 70 point season and claimed superstar status without a single playoff win and one appearance. This is a market that openly questioned whether or not Yzerman was a winner. It is a tough place to get loved and Helm has that whether you want to believe it or not. Who gets love and why isn't always easy to understand but the attachment to Helm is real. Undersell it call it crazy but many Wings fans have learned to like certain elements players bring to the table.
Because like it or not one of those unique circumstances that made Draper a four time cup winner is he was a damn good player that took the #1 line sometimes and wiped them right out of the game. Scored big goals and did things that helped a very good team be a great team, he was a part of that success to suggest otherwise diminishes his accomplishments. I am sure Team Canada called him in to be a defensive ace over other all-star players because he was leeching of the success of others.
All Helm has left to do and he has progressed at a younger age is start taking the #1 or #2 scoring line more. Once that happens they are actually very similar players.
Last edited by The Zetterberg Era: 08-10-2012 at 05:58 PM.
Yes, he is a great 3rd line C, that's what the Sharks lack. I'm sorry but I wouldn't give up Braun for Helm. Braun > Demers and on his way to being stellar. Demers is actually kinda like Holmstrom and throws big hits and will put up good points. Maybe Demers + Nick Petrecki(1st rounder, shutdown d-man) for Helm + 3rd?
Is that a joke?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi
Nearly all of the above (he's not as fast) are also true of our own Derek MacKenzie. We like DMac, but we don't consider him to be among our most untouchable players - and we don't have any obvious leaguewide recognized superstars to list above him as an excuse.
Is this also a joke? If not, then why is your own DMac an unknown while Helm is touted as an valuable role-player?
Nearly all of the above (he's not as fast) are also true of our own Derek MacKenzie. We like DMac, but we don't consider him to be among our most untouchable players - and we don't have any obvious leaguewide recognized superstars to list above him as an excuse.
Most of us said he was just very hard to get. Some used untouchable, but the theme was overpayment and a stiff one. Being among the five fastest players in the league (if I remember right top 3 on the tsn player poll, tells you what his peers think) is a very big deal as far as skill assets. He has a tool in his tool box that frankly not a lot of guys do and he has actually gotten better about slowing down to play hockey better. He was almost too fast for his own good when he broke through.
Is this also a joke? If not, then why is your own DMac an unknown while Helm is touted as an valuable role-player?
Because Darren Helm plays for the Detroit Red Wings, the former home of Kris Draper, while Derek MacKenzie plays for the Colombus Something Jackets, who... they're a southern team that always finishes last, right?
That is the only reason.
EDIT: And no, I'm not saying DMac should be heralded throughout the league.
Because Darren Helm plays for the Detroit Red Wings, the former home of Kris Draper, while Derek MacKenzie plays for the Colombus Something Jackets, who... they're a southern team that always finishes last, right?
That is the only reason.
EDIT: And no, I'm not saying DMac should be heralded throughout the league.
No but you are comparing DMac to a far superior player. It would be like me saying I think Quincey compares favorably with Jack Johnson. The difference in value and opinion around the league is big there, just as it is in this terrible comparison you are trotting out here.
Again, Helm doesn't make-or-break the Sharks' third line. Demers' skill-set is more beneficial to the team than Helm's.
I think he does 'cause a third line center usually anchors the third line. and we have wingels and galidardi/burish for wingers that further solidify it. Demers is expendable as we have 7 top6 Defensemen and enough puck movers in burns, braun, boyle
handzus won't cut it if that's what you're thinking. we need more speed and forecheck
I think he does 'cause a third line center usually anchors the third line. and we have wingels and galidardi/burish for wingers that further solidify it. Demers is expendable as we have 7 top6 Defensemen and enough puck movers in burns, braun, boyle
handzus won't cut it if that's what you're thinking. we need more speed and forecheck
3 puck-movers isn't "enough", it's the bare minimum. They still have no puck-movement from the LD (keeping Demers gives them that with Braun - Demers). By getting Helm, you're adding forward speed but losing blue-line speed. Demers' stretch passes and puck movement are more valuable than a speedy 3rd liner.
I'd rather use Desjardins as the 3C and keep Demers, than use Helm as the 3C and lose Demers. Furthermore, if Moore decides to play this season, he's a more than an adequate 3C.
As a Sharks fan I would love this deal. Its ripping off Detroit big time as Murray is a UFA after this year and Murray's game has declined since his 2010 playoff run. What exactly does a 5th round pick do for Detroit anyways?
3 puck-movers isn't "enough", it's the bare minimum. They still have no puck-movement from the LD (keeping Demers gives them that with Braun - Demers). By getting Helm, you're adding forward speed but losing blue-line speed. Demers' stretch passes and puck movement are more valuable than a speedy 3rd liner.
I'd rather use Desjardins as the 3C and keep Demers, than use Helm as the 3C and lose Demers. Furthermore, if Moore decides to play this season, he's a more than an adequate 3C.
Ya, I see what your'e saying but you have to give to get. Moore doesn't cut it as 3rd line C. Too small and ineffective.
I think he does 'cause a third line center usually anchors the third line. and we have wingels and galidardi/burish for wingers that further solidify it. Demers is expendable as we have 7 top6 Defensemen and enough puck movers in burns, braun, boyle
handzus won't cut it if that's what you're thinking. we need more speed and forecheck
Demers has higher value and has higher potential than Braun.
LOL
