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Boston/Ottawa Trade Proposal

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Old
02-07-2005, 08:27 PM
  #1
Bruins4Ever
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Boston/Ottawa Trade Proposal

To Ottawa: Joe Thornton

To Boston: Martin Havlat, Jason Spezza, 1st round pick

Reasoning: Boston needs more depth on their roster, plain and simple, so in return for a 25 year old franchise power forward, we would need an elite level winger, and a centre in return. Ottawa can finally have the #1 centre they need, and put more grit and physicality on their first line: Hossa-Thornton-Alfreddson (SCARY GOOD) and Boston can put a winger beside Samsonov that will give him a similar player, plus a centre: Samsonov-Spezza-Havlat

The reason for the 1st round pick, I don't even know if it's needed though, is because Boston is giving up the best player on forward in ages to play for the team, and would need good return on the trade. Could this one work?

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02-07-2005, 08:35 PM
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Never. Boston would need to add a lot more or accept a lot less.
If we accepted that deal and made that #1 line (Hossa-Thornton-Alfreddson), our 2nd line would be "Scary-Bad" (Smoke-White-Vermette).

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02-07-2005, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Never. Boston would need to add a lot more or accept a lot less.
If we accepted that deal and made that #1 line (Hossa-Thornton-Alfreddson), our 2nd line would be "Scary-Bad" (Smoke-White-Vermette).
Problem is Boston would never take anything less than that, maybe drop the 1st round pick, but that's about it. Boston needs depth, and for a player of Joe's calibre, he's going to get that much in return.

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02-07-2005, 08:40 PM
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If Boston added Boynton and Green (although, I believe he is a free agent) and we gave you deVries, I'd do it.

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02-07-2005, 08:42 PM
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I don't think Thornton would bring anywhere close to that return. He is a big money player, and whatever salary cap there is in place after the new CBA (soft cap or lux tax) is going to severely limit the trade value of those sorts of guys. If Boston ever wants to move Thornton (which would be a bad idea in my view), they'll have to offer a substantial discount.

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02-07-2005, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
To Ottawa: Joe Thornton

To Boston: Martin Havlat, Jason Spezza, 1st round pick

Reasoning: Boston needs more depth on their roster, plain and simple, so in return for a 25 year old franchise power forward, we would need an elite level winger, and a centre in return. Ottawa can finally have the #1 centre they need, and put more grit and physicality on their first line: Hossa-Thornton-Alfreddson (SCARY GOOD) and Boston can put a winger beside Samsonov that will give him a similar player, plus a centre: Samsonov-Spezza-Havlat

The reason for the 1st round pick, I don't even know if it's needed though, is because Boston is giving up the best player on forward in ages to play for the team, and would need good return on the trade. Could this one work?

way too much.... and too young.

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02-07-2005, 08:49 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
If Boston added Boynton and Green (although, I believe he is a free agent) and we gave you deVries, I'd do it.
Wow, that's terrible. Thornton is easily the best player in the deal, and you take our best defenseman, plus a third line role player, for Spezza, Havlat, and Devries.

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02-07-2005, 08:53 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
Wow, that's terrible. Thornton is easily the best player in the deal, and you take our best defenseman, plus a third line role player, for Spezza, Havlat, and Devries.
Isn't Gonchar the best dman on the bruins? Offensively, Spezza + Havlat > Thorton. Then add in the money factor and its get even more lopsided. Then factor in that 2 scoring threats is always better than 1 scoring threat, and the trade looks even worse. Then you factor in the fact that both Senators are younger than Joe, and the deal looks even worse. Then you factor in the aruement that in 5 post seasons, a very elite player like thorton has led Boston to only ONCE to the second round and the fact that ottawa is trying to make it farther come playofftime, the trade looks even worse.

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02-07-2005, 08:54 PM
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Even without money being an issue, I still believe that the value is way out of whack here.

Ignoring salaries & money, I still don't do this.
Havlat & Spezza are a little younger and have played a little less... so that kind of undercuts this argument. But Havlat just put up what should be his first of many PPG seasons. I expect Spezza (on a similar track to Hossa/Havlat and about to receive #1 PP time) to put up slightly under PPG in his next NHL season.

Joe Thornton has been a PPG player 3 of the 4 last seasons, with 1 big season in between. Considering the way scoring races have gone lately and the very few dominant players (consistent Top5-10 scoring leaders) from year to year, that's not very surprising. I think that may characterize his career (like a lot of others right now).
I'm assuming that Spezza and/or Havlat will end up in the same boat. PPG for most seasons and the occasional explosion.

Now, for a similar player + size and forechecking.... it costs us another elite talent and a 1st round pick?

Your need for depth is nowhere near our need for Joe Thornton.

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02-07-2005, 08:56 PM
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Sens would never do that.

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02-07-2005, 09:05 PM
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Well then what would be fair value:

Alfreddson and a 1st for Thornton?

I mean, to me it seems like Ottawa wants to get grittier, but doesn't want to give up players that they feel are worth the grit. Havlat has been offered for Morrow, Smyth, Doan, all turned down by Sens fans. The problem I see is that you have all this depth that you don't want to trade. The value isn't as far off as you'd think, and I'll explain why.

Thornton is a 25 year old, powerforward, franchise player, heading into the peak of his career. Has already put up a 101 point season playing on a less than stellar Bruins team. He's developed into one of the Top 5 players in the league behind Forsberg, Iginla, Pronger, and Naslund. His contract is fairly large, 6.5 million a year, but for the points he puts up, he's worth every penny IMO. He's a proven warrior, and will stand up for opponents whenever necessary.

Havlat can get a PPG, but only if he plays with the right linemates. He's not physical, and shows Ottawa's lack of grit. Spezza is very good and could put up 75 points, probably the maximum for Havlat also. The point is that Spezza isn't ready for #1 centre duty, and you need a player who's already there to win the Cup for Ottawa. Thornton is a proven 1st line centre, who can put up more than a point per game, and if he's given elite linemates like Alfredsson and Hossa, he could put up 120 points per season no problem IMO. So what's fair value from Ottawa?

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02-07-2005, 09:05 PM
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I can't see a guy like Thornton being traded to a division rival.

I think it's a fair trade, but the kind that both sides would be very hesitant to do, because Bruin fans would expect more for Thornton and Ottawa fans would expect more out of Havlat and Spezza

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02-07-2005, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Isn't Gonchar the best dman on the bruins? Offensively, Spezza + Havlat > Thorton. Then add in the money factor and its get even more lopsided. Then factor in that 2 scoring threats is always better than 1 scoring threat, and the trade looks even worse. Then you factor in the fact that both Senators are younger than Joe, and the deal looks even worse. Then you factor in the aruement that in 5 post seasons, a very elite player like thorton has led Boston to only ONCE to the second round and the fact that ottawa is trying to make it farther come playofftime, the trade looks even worse.
Do we have to go through this again. Thornton, 2 games before the playoffs, goes down with a brutal rib injury, yet he still shows the leadership in the Bruins dressing room. You can't expect an injured man to lead your team to the next round. That's like having Hossa injured for the Sens, and expecting him to carry the team onwards. They aren't very much younger than Thornton, and you're getting a Top 5 player in the league for two lesser superstars. Spezza needs a few more years to be a consistent first liner, and Havlat can't play the body at all.

Thornton gives both of those qualities, plus leadership. Then, you put in the fact that Thornton has put up all these points without players like Hossa, or Forsberg, he's played with Mike Knuble and Glen Murray, not the two biggest names in the league by any means. Then, you also take into the account that Thornton was 100% responsible for making Murray and Knuble play better everygame, day in day out, no questions asked. Finally, you add in the fact that with Thornton, you would have a scary combination with either Hossa or Alfredsson. Think of Thornton with Murray, times about 2. Thornton could put up 120 points no problem IMO. This trade isn't as unbalanced as many of you are making it out to be.

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02-07-2005, 09:14 PM
  #14
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So he was injured last playoffs WHAT about the other 4 playoffs before that? Players play injured all the time. He was injured yes, but he also used it as an excuse as well. Thorton putting up 120 points is absurd. In the last 3 years, the highest point total has been 106 points (2 years ago). The other two years have been UNDER 100. For Thorton to put up 120 points he would have to win the rocket richard and be have the most assists in the league as well. He can't do it.

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02-07-2005, 09:20 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
Finally, you add in the fact that with Thornton, you would have a scary combination with either Hossa or Alfredsson. Think of Thornton with Murray, times about 2. Thornton could put up 120 points no problem IMO. This trade isn't as unbalanced as many of you are making it out to be.
Read this last part. With Thornton having linemates like Hossa or Alfredsson, he COULD put up 120 points. WITH linemates LIKE Hossa or Alfredsson. Then, think of having Hossa and Alfredsson's point totals skyrocket, and you see my point. If you give Thornton elite linemates like that, he could be the number 1 player in the league.

During those playoff years, we caught Brodeur on his hot streak where he went to the finals, 2 times I believe, we were ranked 7th the one year against Montreal who was number 2, and last year Thornton was injured.


Last edited by Bruins4Ever: 02-07-2005 at 09:26 PM.
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02-07-2005, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
Thornton has put up all these points without players like Hossa, or Forsberg, he's played with Mike Knuble and Glen Murray, not the two biggest names in the league by any means. Then, you also take into the account that Thornton was 100% responsible for making Murray and Knuble play better everygame, day in day out, no questions asked.
Murray has put up two 29 goal/60 point seasons without Joe Thornton. Two years ago was the only big season for Murray that can be attributed to Thornton.

You play the Knuble card? ... I raise you Varada, Schaefer, Arvedson, Langfeld, Smoke, Schastlivy (all the LW's we've played on scoring lines since MacEachern was traded).
Sure our best offensive players meet up on the PP, but so do yours (Samsonov, etc)

Quote:
Finally, you add in the fact that with Thornton, you would have a scary combination with either Hossa or Alfredsson. Think of Thornton with Murray, times about 2. Thornton could put up 120 points no problem IMO. This trade isn't as unbalanced as many of you are making it out to be.
Spezza's a playmaker. Quite a good one. Why do we need Joe Thornton again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
Spezza needs a few more years to be a consistent first liner, and Havlat can't play the body at all.
Again:

Thornton.......................................... ......Spezza
81-16-25-41... (2 years after draft year).....33-7-14-21
81-23-37-60... (3 years after draft year).....78-22-33-55
72-37-34-71... (4 years after draft year).....?????

*(obviously, whatever season Spezza put up next probably won't have 37 goals. 71 points should be doable.)


Last edited by trentmccleary: 02-08-2005 at 11:43 PM.
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02-07-2005, 09:32 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
Read this last part. With Thornton having linemates like Hossa or Alfredsson, he COULD put up 120 points. WITH linemates LIKE Hossa or Alfredsson. Then, think of having Hossa and Alfredsson's point totals skyrocket, and you see my point. If you give Thornton elite linemates like that, he could be the number 1 player in the league.
Just like Selanne and Kariya in Colorado?

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02-07-2005, 09:34 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Just like Selanne and Kariya in Colorado?
Thats a bad example. They never really got to play toegther, nor get top minutes, nor play the PP together and kariya was injured as well.

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02-07-2005, 09:39 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
During those playoff years, we caught Brodeur on his hot streak where he went to the finals, 2 times I believe, we were ranked 7th the one year against Montreal who was number 2, and last year Thornton was injured.
Not to add salt to any wounds, but the year in question where you lost to Montreal (2001/2002), you were ranked 1st and they were ranked 8th.

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02-07-2005, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Thats a bad example. They never really got to play toegther, nor get top minutes, nor play the PP together and kariya was injured as well.
Selanne played the full season and it's not like Colorado is devoid of talent.
He was outscored by a rookie defensemen (Liles) and a career checker (Konowalchuk).

Edit: Hmmm, what about evey player that went to join the All-Star team that the Rangers were assembling?

Really, with the exception of Mid-1990's Pittsburgh there isn't a case to be made for this offensive explosion between stars playing together on a new team.

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02-07-2005, 09:51 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Murray has put up two 29 goal/60 point seasons without Joe Thornton. Two years ago was the only big season for Murray that can be attributed to Thornton.

You play the Knuble card? ... I raise you Varada, Schaefer, Arvedson, Langfeld, Smoke, Schastlivy (all the LW's we've played on scoring lines since MacEachern was traded).
Sure our best offensive players meet up on the PP, but so do yours (Samsonov, etc)



Spezza's a playmaker. Quite a good one. Why do we need Joe Thornton again?


Again:

Thornton.......................................... ......Spezza
81-16-25-41... (2 years after draft year).....33-7-14-21
81-23-37-60... (3 years after draft year).....78-22-33-55
72-37-34-71... (3 years after draft year).....?????

*(obviously, whatever season Spezza put up next probably won't have 37 goals. 71 points should be doable.)
Last year Murray put up pretty good points (60 points) and played 81 games, about as much as you'd expect from him every year. But when you look at Thornton's assist numbers, 50 assists with Murray's 32 goals, and you take into account the fact that Thornton set up Murray on about 3/4 of his goals, you can see what a difference he makes with Murray out there. You can also notice the fact that Alfredsson or Hossa are about twice as good as Murray, and with Thornton, they can put up twice the amount of points. I'm telling you, Hossa-Thornton-Alfredsson would be the most dangerous first line in a long time.

You need Thornton because Ottawa always complains about a lack of grit in their forwards. Adding Thornton gives you enough grit to go around because he's one of the premier power forwards in the game today. Thornton doesn't always need to be the playmaker either because of his wingers, so he can play a more physical role and still put up amazing points. In Boston, the lack of skill on the first line was evident because many nights Thornton would end up playing a dominant game by himself and would get tired because of the work load put on him. He played insane minutes last year on Boston, and for good reason.

EDIT: I also would like to bring up the fact that for Thornton's first 2 years, he didn't see 1st or 2nd line ice time, he was the team's 4th line centre, and occasionally moved to the third line. Spezza had first line ice time with elite teammates in his second year while Thornton was way back on the team's destitute 4th line with guys like Donato.


Last edited by Bruins4Ever: 02-07-2005 at 09:56 PM.
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02-07-2005, 09:55 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Selanne played the full season and it's not like Colorado is devoid of talent.
He was outscored by a rookie defensemen (Liles) and a career checker (Konowalchuk).

Edit: Hmmm, what about evey player that went to join the All-Star team that the Rangers were assembling?

Really, with the exception of Mid-1990's Pittsburgh there isn't a case to be made for this offensive explosion between stars playing together on a new team.
Ok, I'll bite this. Fleury, Lindros, Jagr, Bure we're all pretty much over the hill when New York signed them, all had taken their share of injuries, and basically finished off their careers in an Original Six hockey town. Those 4 never clicked, at all, they all had contrasting styles. Then, you take into account Lindross's concussion problems, Fleury's personal problems, Bure's bad knee, and you can see why that never worked out. All the players were injured, for a lot of the season. Also, none were in their mid twenties when they signed with the Rangers. They were all late twenties-mid thirties, so the team would have been great if it had been assembled 10 years prior to when it was. But this argument is faulty because none of the players in question have a history of injuries, and have stayed relatively healthy throughout their whole careers.

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02-07-2005, 10:10 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
Last year Murray put up pretty good points (60 points) and played 81 games, about as much as you'd expect from him every year. But when you look at Thornton's assist numbers, 50 assists with Murray's 32 goals, and you take into account the fact that Thornton set up Murray on about 3/4 of his goals, you can see what a difference he makes with Murray out there. You can also notice the fact that Alfredsson or Hossa are about twice as good as Murray, and with Thornton, they can put up twice the amount of points. I'm telling you, Hossa-Thornton-Alfredsson would be the most dangerous first line in a long time.
There are a few great lines out there like in Vancouver, Colorado, whatever line TB puts together, St.Louis had a fair bit of top end talent.
Now, you're idea can be interpretted in two ways with regards to these teams. Their lines are held down by useless Knuble-types like Tanguay, Morrison, Modin/Stillman. Or this offensive explosion just doesn't happen between star players on the same line.

Quote:
You need Thornton because Ottawa always complains about a lack of grit in their forwards.
Muckler has a done a lot of work and our young player have adapted better to the NHL. We have forechecking. We don't need Thornton at that price, if at all. IMO, Adam Hall/Holmstrom/Fedotenko fit what we need much better than Thornton... who will essentially become redundant if we had Spezza.


Quote:
EDIT: I also would like to bring up the fact that for Thornton's first 2 years, he didn't see 1st or 2nd line ice time, he was the team's 4th line centre, and occasionally moved to the third line. Spezza had first line ice time with elite teammates in his second year while Thornton was way back on the team's destitute 4th line with guys like Donato.
I know about Thornton's 1st two years. Those posted are his 2nd and 3rd years. His 3rd year... he was the 2nd line center behind Allison.
Spezza has not been 1st line anything or 1st PP unit anything. He was a 4th liner, PP specialist in his 1st season and between the 2nd and 3rd lines last season.

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02-07-2005, 10:16 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
Ok, I'll bite this. Fleury, Lindros, Jagr, Bure we're all pretty much over the hill when New York signed them, all had taken their share of injuries, and basically finished off their careers in an Original Six hockey town.
Lindros was 29 (the prime of his career).
Bure just came off of two season of 58 and 59 goals.
Fleury- give or take... just about equalled the few years beforehand.
Nedved- turned into garbage before our very eyes. Was better with the Oilers.
Kovalev- prime of his career and was terrible.
A.Carter- dropped off the face off the earth

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02-07-2005, 10:25 PM
  #25
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Terrible trade for Ottawa.

Both Spezza and Havlat have the same kind of talent as Thornton, just not as physical and i certainly wouldn't trade them both just to pick up some toughness.
Someone mentioned that if Havlat didn't have great linemates he wouldn't put up big numbers....you sir couldn't be more wrong.
Havlat has the kind of ability that carries a line, he creates his own offence. He makes the players around him better.

We are in a position where i suppose Havlat could be traded but why would we??? He's one of the top young players in the world. Ottawa can add the pieces to its lineup without dealing a guy like that.
ITs fun to talk about but really, you just don't trade guys like Havlat or Spezza unless the return is absurd.


Last edited by Wondercarrot: 02-07-2005 at 11:56 PM.
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