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Flyers 'step up' offer for Bouwmeester

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Old
08-12-2012, 11:30 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
That's not going to happen. Couturier will be a #2 soon, if not a #1, and Schenn will prove to be more than a #3. The Pittsburgh model was able to hold up because Staal took a while to prove beyond doubt that he was more than a #3, but in any other case it's not fair to the odd man out to have 3 top 6 centers.

Same thing is happening in Boston; unless they choose to move Krecji to the wing the chances are he'll be traded, because they're all too natural of centers for one to get forced to the wing.

Once Schenn and Couturier prove themselves as top 6'ers, Schenn will be the odd man out and will be traded.
It's entirely possible. I'm certainly not going to make any guarantees about what the team will look like in 5 years because we know how little it would mean about most teams, let alone the Flyers.

But if Couturier grows out of the #3C role, then Schenn will simply be moved to wing. He's already been moved to wing at times, and will likely see more time on the wing next season.

And even if the Flyers refuse to move Schenn to wing long term, it will be a 1 line, 2a line, and 2b line. The Pittsburgh model fell apart because it was 1a line and 1b line leaving too small a role for a guy like Staal. The Flyers only have one superstar amongst their three centers, so there's plenty of other options that would allow for them to all find their proper role on the team. This was not an option with Crosby and Malkin who were cemented extremely firmly into their roles with the Pens.

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08-12-2012, 11:34 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
When you post with some respect and don't come across like a total smuck like in this post, then we can talk hockey.

I fully understand what you mean and the Flyers position, but I don't and highly doubt any GM would view Gio as a short term solution. My main point is, if Feaster put him on the table I think Holmgren would at the very least consider it.
I'm the one posting with little respect? I wouldnt have responded to you like that in the first place if you didnt call Flyers fans "funny and crazy" for not entertaining a Couturier/Giordano trade. Give me a break.

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08-12-2012, 11:35 PM
  #403
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Kimmo Timonen is one of the best positional defenders in the NHL. Even at his age he is a lock at registering 40 points while playing some of the most sound defense you will see in the NHL. Giordano, yes is a good defender, but you don't get that from him every year. Although Kimmo is older now, he is still a top 20-25 defender in this league. Just ask Chara why he took Timonen as his first defensive pick in the all star game.

Also MVW all the attributes you named for Giordano, Kimmo possesses. He is a great leader, plays with emotion and is by far one of the Flyers "total warriors". Kimmo Timonen is the better all around defender than Giordano, even at his age now.

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08-12-2012, 11:37 PM
  #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
That's not going to happen. Couturier will be a #2 soon, if not a #1, and Schenn will prove to be more than a #3. The Pittsburgh model was able to hold up because Staal took a while to prove beyond doubt that he was more than a #3, but in any other case it's not fair to the odd man out to have 3 top 6 centers.

Same thing is happening in Boston; unless they choose to move Krecji to the wing (which would be unfair for him) the chances are he'll be traded, because they're all too natural of centers for one to get forced to the wing.

Once Schenn and Couturier prove themselves as top 6'ers, Schenn will be the odd man out and will be traded.
There is absolutely no rush to move Seguin to C.

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08-12-2012, 11:39 PM
  #405
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If you look at his draft, it's clear that Chara's picks were influenced in large part by seniority and respect. Timonen carries himself like a gentleman, and a professional's professional at all times. That has a lot to do with why he got picked first.

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08-12-2012, 11:39 PM
  #406
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It also won't work in Philly because of the salary cap. In 2-4 years when Giroux gets his massive pay raise, and Couturier and Schenn are up for new deals, something will to give. Bryz has a massive cap hit, there is bound to be another big money dman by then, and then there's the balance of the team. While that is of no concern next season, I think it is definitely likely that one of them will have to be moved at some point down the road.

I'm also not stating this to say "you should trade us Couturier for that reason", I'm simply giving my 2 cents how I see things playing out so there's no need to get all defensive about things.

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08-12-2012, 11:40 PM
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
If you look at his draft, it's clear that Chara's picks were influenced in large part by seniority and respect. Timonen carries himself like a gentleman, and a professional's professional at all times. That has a lot to do with why he got picked first.
He also mentioned, and I am paraphrasing the best I can, that he is a huge pain to play against. He is always in the right spot in the right time IIRC. Yes I agree he did get selected partly because of what you said, Kimmo is still maybe one of the more under rated players in the NHL.

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08-12-2012, 11:41 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Lucic View Post
There is absolutely no rush to move Seguin to C.
He's coming up fast, and stylistically he's much more of a center than he is a winger. Not saying he can't play wing, but he's going to be a great center sooner than later, and when you have 3 great centers it's not fair to force one to play wing. Players want to win but they always want the opportunity to be all they can be, and with Seguin that day is coming sooner than later IMO.

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08-12-2012, 11:45 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I'm the one posting with little respect? I wouldnt have responded to you like that in the first place if you didnt call Flyers fans "funny and crazy" for not entertaining a Couturier/Giordano trade. Give me a break.
It was not my intentions to insinuate that you guys are crazy, I apologize for that! I just meant that to me it sounds crazy that a defender that is on the caliber of Gio would be dismissed so quickly for a player that is still largely unproven. My bad..

My next post was mostly in reaction to you calling me dense.

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08-12-2012, 11:46 PM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVW View Post
It also won't work in Philly because of the salary cap. In 2-4 years when Giroux gets his massive pay raise, and Couturier and Schenn are up for new deals, something will to give. Bryz has a massive cap hit, there is bound to be another big money dman by then, and then there's the balance of the team. While that is of no concern next season, I think it is definitely likely that one of them will have to be moved at some point down the road.

I'm also not stating this to say "you should trade us Couturier for that reason", I'm simply giving my 2 cents how I see things playing out so there's no need to get all defensive about things.
In 2 years when Giroux's becomes a RFA, the Flyers have 3 F, 3 D and Bryzgalov under contract at a total of about $28M. I think they'll be able to sort that out.

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08-12-2012, 11:49 PM
  #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVW View Post
It also won't work in Philly because of the salary cap. In 2-4 years when Giroux gets his massive pay raise, and Couturier and Schenn are up for new deals, something will to give. Bryz has a massive cap hit, there is bound to be another big money dman by then, and then there's the balance of the team. While that is of no concern next season, I think it is definitely likely that one of them will have to be moved at some point down the road.

I'm also not stating this to say "you should trade us Couturier for that reason", I'm simply giving my 2 cents how I see things playing out so there's no need to get all defensive about things.
Briere's deal ends then. Kimmo will not be making 6.3 million (his absence will be another big issue though). Other none-core personnel could be moved to make room.

If keeping them is not the best strategy in a few years, then Holmgren won't. If it is, he will. It makes no sense to trade one now to preempt having to make a tough decision later.

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08-12-2012, 11:49 PM
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Kimmo Timonen is one of the best positional defenders in the NHL. Even at his age he is a lock at registering 40 points while playing some of the most sound defense you will see in the NHL. Giordano, yes is a good defender, but you don't get that from him every year. Although Kimmo is older now, he is still a top 20-25 defender in this league. Just ask Chara why he took Timonen as his first defensive pick in the all star game.

Also MVW all the attributes you named for Giordano, Kimmo possesses. He is a great leader, plays with emotion and is by far one of the Flyers "total warriors". Kimmo Timonen is the better all around defender than Giordano, even at his age now.
I watch as much Flyer games as I can, and I completely agree with your assessment of Kimmo. For his size, he plays like he's in someone else's body. Plus he's such a great skater and passer, I'm definitely a big fan!

Gio had an injury last season that really affected his offensive production. He finally regained his form at the end of the season. Its a matter of opinion, but personally I'd give a slight edge to Gio but I can understand why someone would pick Kimmo. Either way, its close and they are both great in their own realms.

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08-12-2012, 11:53 PM
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
If keeping them is not the best strategy in a few years, then Holmgren won't. If it is, he will. It makes no sense to trade one now to preempt having to make a tough decision later.
I agreed with this in my previous post, I was just referring to that I can forsee it will be hard to keep all 3. Regardless that's not an issue to worry about right meow.

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08-12-2012, 11:59 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
It was not my intentions to insinuate that you guys are crazy, I apologize for that! I just meant that to me it sounds crazy that a defender that is on the caliber of Gio would be dismissed so quickly for a player that is still largely unproven. My bad..

My next post was mostly in reaction to you calling me dense.
Well, in that case, I take it back too! Calling you dense was mostly in reaction to you calling us crazy


Like I said, Giordano is essentially exactly what the Flyers want. However, before the Flyers go re-writing future history by trading Couturier, I would think they would likely to be absolutely sure that this defense cant cut it.

So, yes, Couturier is 'unproven', but management has extremely high hopes for the future core of this team, and it doesnt make much sense at this point to ditch those hopes so quickly in an attempt to more or less field the same exact defensive core they had last year-- by that I mean Giordano would be upgraded on Carle and Meszaros would be swapped for Schenn, so the net result would likely be something similar. So while I'd love to have Giordano, is it worth fielding the same team that we had last year, but without JVR, Couturier, and Jagr? When you look at it from that perspective, it doesnt make a whole lot of sense despite how attractive Giordano is.

Flyers fans are in general extremely defensive about Couturier proposals because management is so deeply committed to building a long term core for the team. Yes, we'd love to win the Cup next season, and you can bet they will do everything to reach that goal, but sacrificing the future core of the team is a step too far, and we've heard Couturier's name mentioned far too often to react kindly to those proposals

So basically, Flyers fans are less interested in landing a #1 defender than some people think. Weber was a swing for the fences, but ultimately, nobody associated with the Flyers is really interested in moving any core pieces at the moment. If that means we cant bring anybody else in, then so be it. Hope that makes more sense. A vast majority of quarrels on the trade forums happen simply because fans fail to see things from the other perspective, so I'm trying to offer a bit of that from the Flyers point of view here.

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08-13-2012, 12:10 AM
  #415
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Yeah that makes total sense, and trust me I would have a very hard time to move Couturier to. Everything I've seen from this kid lead me to think that he's going to end up being Toews 2.0 which is why I want him on the Flames so bad.
Holmgren is a pretty shrewd and opportunistic GM. I'm sure if something comes up he will be in there like a dirty shirt to land another top 4 dman. Of course it needs to makes sense.

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08-13-2012, 12:27 AM
  #416
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I'm assuming you're referring to us saying no to the Couturier-Giordano trade?
No, not at all.

I've seen Flyers fans claim that they wouldn't move Schenn/Couturier for legitimate star #1 defensemen like OEL, Weber, Yandle(Borderline IMO).

I completely understand that you wouldn't move either Schenn/Couturier for Giordano, that would be a moronic move. However, I think teams aren't interested in gift wrapping top pairing defenseman to the Flyers. It seems that they don't have the assets to land defensemen.

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08-13-2012, 12:39 AM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
No, not at all.

I've seen Flyers fans claim that they wouldn't move Schenn/Couturier for legitimate star #1 defensemen like OEL, Weber, Yandle(Borderline IMO).
If you mean Schenn+Couturier, then maybe, but could you show me someone who claimed he wouldnt trade Couturier or Schenn for Weber?


Quote:
However, I think teams aren't interested in gift wrapping top pairing defenseman to the Flyers. It seems that they don't have the assets to land defensemen.
You would be absolutely correct. We dont have the assets to land defensemen. But we're not the ones suggesting to make a trade!

Check out the Flyers board. We have voted overwhelmingly in favor of just standing pat or signing a UFA like Roszival or Colaiacovo. We all recognize that we dont have the expendable pieces to get our guy, and we also recognize that nobody will fall into our lap for spare parts.

Just because we hear that the Flyers are interested in Bouwmeester doesnt mean that they will be pressured into making a trade. Similarly, Calgary shouldnt (and isnt) expected to trade him to us for little value. Nobody expects that. We hear "Flyers are interested in Bouwmeester", so we respond with what we are comfortable giving up for him. Once again, we're not the ones suggesting to go after him!

If he falls into our lap for little value, then great. If not, then whatever, because we dont feel comfortable trading fair value in the first place. Like you said, we dont have the pieces to do it. Nothing wrong with it from either side.

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08-13-2012, 01:10 AM
  #418
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Curious, what would the Flyers be willing to part with for Jbo that they view is fair?

I know that this has been discussed thoroughly throughout this thread, however I feel now everyone knows what would be expected from both fanbases.

Personally, I don't see a deal to be made.

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08-13-2012, 01:11 AM
  #419
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
Curious, what would the Flyers be willing to part with for Jbo that they view is fair?

I know that this has been discussed thoroughly throughout this thread, however I feel now everyone knows what would be expected from both fanbases.

Personally, I don't see a deal to be made.
Considering the rumors that he could be had for a late first and a prospect at the draft, maybe a 1st + Bourdon + maybe Ranford

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08-13-2012, 01:12 AM
  #420
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
No, not at all.

I've seen Flyers fans claim that they wouldn't move Schenn/Couturier for legitimate star #1 defensemen like OEL, Weber, Yandle(Borderline IMO).

I completely understand that you wouldn't move either Schenn/Couturier for Giordano, that would be a moronic move. However, I think teams aren't interested in gift wrapping top pairing defenseman to the Flyers. It seems that they don't have the assets to land defensemen.
OEL has had one good year and is now worth Schenn+Couturier?

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08-13-2012, 01:15 AM
  #421
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OEL has had one good year and is now worth Schenn+Couturier?
When he says Schenn/Couturier, I assume he means either, not both.

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08-13-2012, 01:20 AM
  #422
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
Curious, what would the Flyers be willing to part with for Jbo that they view is fair?

I know that this has been discussed thoroughly throughout this thread, however I feel now everyone knows what would be expected from both fanbases.

Personally, I don't see a deal to be made.
Not sure what Feaster expects, or more importantly, what Detroit or others are prepared to offer, but I would offer Matt Read or prospect Nick Cousins, one of our young D/prospects (Bourdon or Manning) and a pick.

There is no point trading any of our top young forwards like Schenn, Couturier, Voracek or even Simmonds for JBo. With vets like Briere, Hartnell and Talbot, they make up the heart of our team.

If we are prepared to trade guys like Simmonds or Voracek, we could go after someone better and with a better longterm contract than JBo, like Yandle for example.

I'd rather sign Colaiacovo, or trade for someone like Hjalmarsson from Chicago, if the price is too high for JBo.

Bouwmeester's contract is a huge factor here, mostly the 'only two years left.' He could walk after 2 years, so you can't give up too much for what could just be an extended rental. The same would be true of Read which is why I'd offer him.

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08-13-2012, 01:27 AM
  #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
OEL has had one good year and is now worth Schenn+Couturier?
I love OEL's play, but I agree, I tend to think calling him a legit superstar #1 is a bit premature.

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08-13-2012, 01:38 AM
  #424
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I was thinking Read, Gus and a 1st. Being that's the thinking coming from our side, its probably a bit to high.

Being more realistic, what about Read, Bourdon/Manning and a 1st? Is that getting closer?

Again, just trying to gauge value.

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08-13-2012, 01:40 AM
  #425
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
No, not at all.

I've seen Flyers fans claim that they wouldn't move Schenn/Couturier for legitimate star #1 defensemen like OEL, Weber, Yandle(Borderline IMO).

I completely understand that you wouldn't move either Schenn/Couturier for Giordano, that would be a moronic move. However, I think teams aren't interested in gift wrapping top pairing defenseman to the Flyers. It seems that they don't have the assets to land defensemen.
I believe the flyers have plenty of assets to land a defensemen. They are a top scoring team in the league with a lot of youth and potential. Plenty of teams out there are in need of scoring. It depends on the particular team whether or not the Flyers have the assets they would want. I could see a team in need of a scoring winger, really coveting Matt Read for an average and solid defenseman. He gets overlooked because the flyers have Schenn and Couturier who were high draft picks with a lot of potential and value. Read wasn't drafted but emerged into the league with 24 goals and 47 points. Sure, he's not 19 but he's definitely proven that he has what it takes to bring in points.

I also believe a matt read/brayden schenn combination could land the Flyers a great defensemen. I don't think they would part with schenn after bringing his brother to town, though. they do have the assets for certain teams.

It really all depends on the other team and their needs.

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