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Free Agency & General Offseason Thread Part IV: Will there be NHL hockey this year?

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Old
08-23-2012, 12:42 AM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Ottawa didn't have a shutdown line. Behindthenet will back this up with their stats... 1) small(er) ranger between Ottawa forwards than most teams, 2) the lines that faced the best competition, were simply the ones that played the most.

Spezza, Michalek and Greening faced tougher competition than Turris did.
Except Turris did face better competition

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08-23-2012, 01:08 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Except Turris did face better competition
KASPARSDAUGAVINS 0.038
MILANMICHALEK 0.034
JASONSPEZZA 0.016
COLINGREENING 0.016
KYLETURRIS 0.013
DANIELALFREDSSON 0.008
ERIKCONDRA 0.001
ZACKSMITH -0.002
NICKFOLIGNO -0.018
BOBBYBUTLER -0.024
CHRISNEIL -0.035
ZENONKONOPKA -0.072

Compare that to Nashville:

MIKEFISHER 0.102
MARTINERAT 0.092
SERGEIKOSTITSYN 0.082
PATRICHORNQVIST 0.031
PAULGAUSTAD 0.028
DAVIDLEGWAND 0.027
ANDREIKOSTITSYN 0.025
GABRIELBOURQUE -0.008
CRAIGSMITH -0.022
COLINWILSON -0.031
NICKSPALING -0.065
JORDINTOOTOO -0.086
MATTHALISCHUK -0.098

Ottawa didn't have a shutdown line and if they did, it was Spezza's line facing the slightly heavier workload.

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08-23-2012, 05:34 AM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
KASPARSDAUGAVINS 0.038
MILANMICHALEK 0.034
JASONSPEZZA 0.016
COLINGREENING 0.016
KYLETURRIS 0.013
DANIELALFREDSSON 0.008
ERIKCONDRA 0.001
ZACKSMITH -0.002
NICKFOLIGNO -0.018
BOBBYBUTLER -0.024
CHRISNEIL -0.035
ZENONKONOPKA -0.072

Compare that to Nashville:

MIKEFISHER 0.102
MARTINERAT 0.092
SERGEIKOSTITSYN 0.082
PATRICHORNQVIST 0.031
PAULGAUSTAD 0.028
DAVIDLEGWAND 0.027
ANDREIKOSTITSYN 0.025
GABRIELBOURQUE -0.008
CRAIGSMITH -0.022
COLINWILSON -0.031
NICKSPALING -0.065
JORDINTOOTOO -0.086
MATTHALISCHUK -0.098

Ottawa didn't have a shutdown line and if they did, it was Spezza's line facing the slightly heavier workload.
I have no idea what that is man. this however

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...34+45+46+63+67

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08-23-2012, 06:55 AM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
I see more ability in Turris than Regin. More jam too.

As for 50 points ending the debate as to whether he is a top 6 fwd or not... I guess you missed the Mike Fisher years.
I wish I missed those years, had to defend Fisher constantly from the parade of ******** criticisms. Fisher + a playmaking winger was a good combo, we just rarely had that playmaker, and when we did, it was Ryan ****ing Shannon. But I digress... Turris plays a more offensive-style of hockey than Fisher, so you'll see far fewer complaints about how much better he'd be as a 3C.

Unless he becomes the next Sam Gagner-esque whipping boy.

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08-23-2012, 08:31 AM
  #280
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If Sam Gagner were 6'1 or 6'2 he wouldn't be ragged on as much I feel. He wants to be able to muscle guys off the puck but he's just not big or strong enough. Turris has a frame you can add muscle too easily and he's also pretty tall so I like his chances of being embraced by the fans better then Gagner's. A couple offseasons working with out conditioning staff and Turris will make it hard for people to believe this was him:


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08-23-2012, 09:34 AM
  #281
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I've been away for a while so I'm not up to speed on the current CBA signing/lockout news... Someone hit me with some truth; what are the chances that we get a lockout?

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08-23-2012, 09:38 AM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveChrisNeil View Post
If Sam Gagner were 6'1 or 6'2 he wouldn't be ragged on as much I feel. He wants to be able to muscle guys off the puck but he's just not big or strong enough. Turris has a frame you can add muscle too easily and he's also pretty tall so I like his chances of being embraced by the fans better then Gagner's. A couple offseasons working with out conditioning staff and Turris will make it hard for people to believe this was him:

I think another big part of Gagner hate was that Gagner (and Cogliano) got hyped up to be the next superstar for Edmonton and he'd lead us out of the basement after his 40 point rookie season. Since then he's not improved much.

Turris hasn't and won't carry the expectations.

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08-23-2012, 09:41 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Mika Silfverberg View Post
I've been away for a while so I'm not up to speed on the current CBA signing/lockout news... Someone hit me with some truth; what are the chances that we get a lockout?
There's less than a month to negotiate before the players get locked out.

The serious negotiations have pretty much just started.

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08-23-2012, 09:42 AM
  #284
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Gagner and Turris both carry the burden of being higher draft picks then they would have been in a stronger draft / should have been due to a bad draft and fans see the draft position and expect more, ala Phillips in his draft year.

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08-23-2012, 09:53 AM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Roffler View Post
Wow, way to much money for Hall.
Makes me appreciate EK's contract even more...

And just saw Pacioretty's extension (been away from NHL hockey for a while) and while he's a good player, 4.5 on mostly RFA years seems a lot for a guy with 1 good/full season under his belt. Didn't hope for that much! That's the same cap hit guys like Spezza and Heatley had 5 years ago! They were much more proven and I don't think Pacio will ever reach the same levels they did

It smells a bit like Ville Leino contract... For comparisons, Lucic has a 4.083 cap hit (and was considered overpaid), Jordan Staal had a 4.0 cap hit and Giroux still has a 3.75 cap hit.

Makes me think about Chris Stewart who had a similar season (28-36-64) to Pacioretty (33-32-65) in 2009-10, but only had a 2.875 cap hit after that... And how much better Pacioretty is vs Hornqvist who makes 3.083 ???

Heck, Johan Franzen has a 3.95 cap hit on UFA years. Also, makes more than Mike Fisher... Montreal declares by this contract that Pacioretty is a star player, now he has to live up with that contract (like a lot of their players lol)... and some Sens fans whine about Murray


EDIT : Dang... His cap hit begins in 2013-14... that puts less weight in my argument... Oh well, he still has to live up to the contract


Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Exactly, therefore hitting 30 points is the next step before hitting 30 goals.

Don't know why everyone is arguing with me, who actually believes Turris will score 30 goals next season?
No one said he is going to score 30 goals. Turris in the article said he believes he CAN be a 30 goals scorer someday, and that's probably what most of us could agree with

I think if you scored 29 points in 49 games (49 pts pace), 30 points in a full season is already reached... I'd say his next plateau to reach would be 45-55 pts over a FULL season.

No one is arguing with you, you're auto-arguing with yourself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamok View Post
I was just pointing out the irony in you arguing semantics when you do this:
good one

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
How is it ironic?
You totally missed his point...


Last edited by Xspyrit: 08-24-2012 at 09:24 AM.
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Old
08-23-2012, 10:12 AM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
KASPARSDAUGAVINS 0.038
MILANMICHALEK 0.034
JASONSPEZZA 0.016
COLINGREENING 0.016
KYLETURRIS 0.013
DANIELALFREDSSON 0.008
ERIKCONDRA 0.001
ZACKSMITH -0.002
NICKFOLIGNO -0.018
BOBBYBUTLER -0.024
CHRISNEIL -0.035
ZENONKONOPKA -0.072

Compare that to Nashville:

MIKEFISHER 0.102
MARTINERAT 0.092
SERGEIKOSTITSYN 0.082
PATRICHORNQVIST 0.031
PAULGAUSTAD 0.028
DAVIDLEGWAND 0.027
ANDREIKOSTITSYN 0.025
GABRIELBOURQUE -0.008
CRAIGSMITH -0.022
COLINWILSON -0.031
NICKSPALING -0.065
JORDINTOOTOO -0.086
MATTHALISCHUK -0.098

Ottawa didn't have a shutdown line and if they did, it was Spezza's line facing the slightly heavier workload.
I dunno what stats you're looking at. I'm looking at these ones:



I'm pretty sure that Turris was playing against the highest Quality of Competition of any of our forwards. He did pretty good too.

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Old
08-23-2012, 10:26 AM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
I can't help but compare all the things said about 22yo Turris last year to 23yo Regin a few seasons back.

I'd wait for him to show a lot more before throwing out the 30 goal, 60 point projections.
Difference is that Turris is much more likely to reach some of his potential (and his potential has always been higher than Regin)... Both could be or could have been high-end 2-way 2nd line centers with 60 pts potential. Also, Regin got Clouston and shoulder injuries in the way. I'd be very happy with this down the road :

Spezza (~80 pts)
Turris(~60 pts)
Regin (~40 pts)
Smith (~20 pts)

All great 2-way centers (based on Spezza and Smith keep improving in that aspect)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Regin has had injury problems as well. The one year you can say Regin was truly bad was the year CCC sucked all the life out of the team.
This, but even then, Regin showed some glimpses of his potential that season when he played with Kovalev... Clouston didn't like "working combinations" that season (no idea why), so he broke them up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The OttoMan Lion View Post
"Well this ONE player didn't excel after a barely comparable season, so there's NO way this other guy will"

I'm so happy to hear this argument for the 5 000th time.
Fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Zetterberg had 43 pts / 61 gp at 22yo.
Nice, it's actually close to what Turris did at 22 y/o (57 pts pace vs 49 pts pace)

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
1st Round picks who wind up doing something with their careers, are greatly outdoing what Turris has done thus far in their careers.
Different learning curve, different context, hard to compare young players... so many factors to consider... Phoenix played Turris in the NHL when he wasn't physically ready... then he had a full year in the AHL, and when he came back in the NHL, he wasn't given quality minutes (with quality teammates) to produce and had to feel the pressure about it.

If you discount his 2008-09 rookie season, last year was his sophomore season... 29 pts in 49 games (49 pts pace) : not bad

Let's not forget that the 2nd line missed a top-6 forward too... a bit of Foligno, Daugavins, Condra...

I think more of guy like Kessel, Wheeler, etc when I think of Turris. They took time to break out because of special contexts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
I wish I missed those years, had to defend Fisher constantly from the parade of ******** criticisms. Fisher + a playmaking winger was a good combo, we just rarely had that playmaker, and when we did, it was Ryan ****ing Shannon. But I digress... Turris plays a more offensive-style of hockey than Fisher, so you'll see far fewer complaints about how much better he'd be as a 3C.

Unless he becomes the next Sam Gagner-esque whipping boy.
Fisher played Alexei Kovalev for a year (and Kovalev had a slow start and an unproductive ending that season too) and effortlessly had his best season with the Sens... Not sure why Clouston didn't play them together consistently the following year (IIRC)

And yeah, Turris is a way better playmaker than Fisher and has more natural skill and creativity. Both are very fast. Difference is that Fisher is a bulldozer on skates and has a better goal scoring touch (at least for now)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveChrisNeil View Post
Gagner and Turris both carry the burden of being higher draft picks then they would have been in a stronger draft / should have been due to a bad draft and fans see the draft position and expect more, ala Phillips in his draft year.
Well, that being said, Turris had Joe Sakic potential back then... which pretty much explains why he was taken 3rd overall, strong draft or not

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08-23-2012, 10:32 AM
  #288
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08-23-2012, 10:33 AM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Well, that being said, Turris had Joe Sakic potential back then... which pretty much explains why he was taken 3rd overall, strong draft or not
He was 'Joe Sakic-lite'. Mainly with his shot. If he were a Joe Sakic potential he would have gone ahead of Kane.

He was also drafted out of the BCHL. Looking like Joe Sakic in that league with the skill Turris has wasn't that hard.

For Turris to dream about being withing Sakic's stratosphere he needs to become a tank. Sakic was a beast protecting the puck. Turris is easily knocked off it. Sakic was also amazing at creating space for himself to create. Thats another thing Turris needs big improvements in.

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08-23-2012, 11:38 AM
  #290
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I also think there's a big difference between Turris saying "I think I can be a 30 goal scorer someday" and people projecting him to get that next season. I think he'll get there but probably not quite yet

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08-23-2012, 12:35 PM
  #291
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Can someone tell me about Colin Greening? Will he be in the top 6? Line mates? Will he improve on his 17 goals he attained this year? The reason I ask is because I am in a first year keeper league and I am intrigued by CG's stats but I know nothing about him.

Any info helps, thanks guys!

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08-23-2012, 12:39 PM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keslerburrows View Post
Any info helps, thanks guys!
It's expected that younger players will fill up the top 6 leaving Greening on the third line (maybe even fourth but he has all the tools to lead the third line). Unless he's on the 1st line, there's little chance he repeats his season (Spezza had an impact on his point totals), but he might still spend some time on the 1st line in the event of injuries, but still fewer than last year.

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08-23-2012, 12:52 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
It's expected that younger players will fill up the top 6 leaving Greening on the third line (maybe even fourth but he has all the tools to lead the third line). Unless he's on the 1st line, there's little chance he repeats his season (Spezza had an impact on his point totals), but he might still spend some time on the 1st line in the event of injuries, but still fewer than last year.
Damn. Okay thanks anyway!

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08-23-2012, 01:02 PM
  #294
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Saw this on the Leafs board (in the thread "Rielly > Murray?") and thought I'd share since one part did talk about Karlsson. I was just saying in a Prospects forum thread that I found Rielly to be overhyped, then went on to read these.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goonx View Post
Doughty? I don't think so. He's more physical.

Letang/Karlsson? yes. Rielly could be as good and better than them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
This may sound peculiar, but I see the low risk of Rielly as Jake Gardiner. Who I see as a Tomas Kaberle type player. High end for Rielly is the hopes he can be another Brian Leetch.
and I thought we had Rundblad overrated (which we did a little bit). Seeing names like Brian Leetch, Erik Karlsson and Kris Letang thrown out. And it's not comparing their style of play...

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08-23-2012, 01:25 PM
  #295
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So....we're not the only fanbase with prospectitis.

Good to know.

About this whole Turris debate, just look at what he has done in Ottawa.

11 points in his first 13 games or whatever it was.

Stepped into the #1 C role when Spezza was out and had a 4 point game.

Scored an OT winner in a playoff game.

The guy's skill and talent can't be denied.

He's not going to get 30 goals as long as Spezza is the man. He won't get the PP time, and the other opportunities afforded the #1C.

That said, he is a legitimate top 6 talent. He will have good wingers. His line will bring us a much needed secondary threat.

We were a one line team for too long.

I think we're looking pretty good down the middle going forward.

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08-23-2012, 02:24 PM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Ottawa didn't have a shutdown line. Behindthenet will back this up with their stats... 1) small(er) ranger between Ottawa forwards than most teams, 2) the lines that faced the best competition, were simply the ones that played the most.

Spezza, Michalek and Greening faced tougher competition than Turris did.



Nope.

People here jumped the gun and pronounced this guy, that guy and the other guy superstars prematurely based on a small sample of games. Turris hasn't done anything more than they ever did.



Daniel Sedin was behind the West Coast Coast Express for ice time.
Scott Hartnell is an all-round complimentary player. His production is dependent on others.

St.Louis and Sharp were never expected to make the NHL. If you're using their careers to argue that everything is possible, then we might as well wait for Robbie Baillergeon to lead us to the Stanley Cup.

Iginla had a 50 point rookie season at 19yo.
Parise had a 62 point sophomore season at 22yo.
Zetterberg had 43 pts / 61 gp at 22yo.

Pominville had 68 points at 23yo.
Eriksson had 63 points at 23yo.

1st Round picks who wind up doing something with their careers, are greatly outdoing what Turris has done thus far in their careers.



From 2005 to 2010, Fisher was the 2nd line center for 5 full seasons and was on pace for full season paces of; 58, 55, 53, 49 and 34 point seasons. The 34 point pace season was the one in which Hartsburg decided that we needed to run the most predictable junior lever breakout strategy possible.

Fisher's productivity was obscured by his injuries.






Explain.



If he does it once, he'll reach the Todd White / Antoine Vermette career that I predict for him.


I just want to add a quick addition here Trent. McLean mentioned in a couple post game scums that he he liked to alternate Spezza and Turris against other team's top lines. You're right that we didn't have a shutdown line, we used our two top lines to shut other teams down. I remember him saying specifically about Tampa or Pitt that he had the luxury of throwing out Turris against the other team's top player (Crosby or Stamkos) when Spezza came off.

It would appear that in McLean's system we wont have a shutdown line, rather our top lines will go toe to toe with the other team's best. Turris has shown himself to be a solid shutdown centre I think. With added strength he should move into the 'excellent' category since his positioning is already fantastic.

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08-23-2012, 02:29 PM
  #297
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This is all i see when people link those hockey stats.

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08-23-2012, 04:19 PM
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I have no idea what that is man. this however
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...2+13+14+15+16#

Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveChrisNeil View Post
A couple offseasons working with out conditioning staff and Turris will make it hard for people to believe this was him:
What do you think that Phoenix's conditioning staff was trying to do for 4 years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Difference is that Turris is much more likely to reach some of his potential (and his potential has always been higher than Regin).
Just like Butler and a whole bunch of guys before him. Prospectitis is an intoxicating high... like buying a lottery ticket and dreaming of how you'll spend the millions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Nice, it's actually close to what Turris did at 22 y/o (57 pts pace vs 49 pts pace)
Turris was on a 43 point pace last year and Zetterberg was on a 58 point pace.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Different learning curve, different context, hard to compare young players... so many factors to consider... Phoenix played Turris in the NHL when he wasn't physically ready... then he had a full year in the AHL, and when he came back in the NHL, he wasn't given quality minutes (with quality teammates) to produce and had to feel the pressure about it.
Almost everybody in the draft is a physically immature boy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
I think more of guy like Kessel, Wheeler, etc when I think of Turris. They took time to break out because of special contexts.
Kessel had 3 x 30 goal seasons in the NHL at this point in his career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
About this whole Turris debate, just look at what he has done in Ottawa.
What did he do in Ottawa?

All of these 3 seasons involved fairly comparable (season total) ES & PP ice time:
- 22yo Turris (reg & PO's) = 32 points in his 3rd year playing with Alfie
- 23yo Regin (regular) = 29 points in his rookie season playing a lot on the 4th line.
- 23yo Z.Smith = 26 points in his 2nd year playing on the 3rd line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
11 points in his first 13 games or whatever it was.

Stepped into the #1 C role when Spezza was out and had a 4 point game.
Chris Kelly had 10 points in 5 games centering Ottawa's 1st line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
The guy's skill and talent can't be denied.
Compare him to Yashin, Hossa, Havlat or Spezza.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice-Tray View Post
It would appear that in McLean's system we wont have a shutdown line, rather our top lines will go toe to toe with the other team's best. Turris has shown himself to be a solid shutdown centre I think. With added strength he should move into the 'excellent' category since his positioning is already fantastic.
We didn't have a shutdown line.

Turris has shown himself able to handle a regular shift, not that he's any sort of shutdown player.

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08-23-2012, 04:24 PM
  #299
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You can't compare players under different coaches, team doesn't matter.

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08-23-2012, 04:37 PM
  #300
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anyone else hope Tarasenko busts?

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