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Free Agency & General Offseason Thread Part IV: Will there be NHL hockey this year?

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Old
09-04-2012, 12:11 AM
  #876
MAK19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Immanuel View Post
ITT there's 2 kinds of people

The kind that are letting their prejudice cloud their judgment on one hand. On the other, there's MAK.
lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur View Post
Chris Neil's big hits inspire the team to play better/energize the entire team multiple times per year, actually per month, I don't get this comment, do you watch the sens?
... OK. So he's a little more valuable than his numbers suggest.

fyi I like him

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09-04-2012, 12:24 AM
  #877
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Anyone else remember when Meszaros, Preissing, and Pothier took turns leading our team in +/-?

I don't think they were our best defensemen in those years.

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Old
09-04-2012, 01:31 AM
  #878
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Fowards that I like that aren't superstars. They're in no particular order.


Player
QoCRel CorsiDifference in On and Off ice +/-Offensive Zone Start %
Tommy Wingels9th90.1553.9
Keith Aucoin15th16.81.7150.8
Mathieu Perreault14th14.51.1551.9
Kyle Wellwood8th15.80.5360.5
Chris Higgins2nd2.20.4246.6
Nazem Kadri12th10.9 0.7851.7
James Wyman2nd-8.20.5330.3
Alex Steen5th21.72.3452.6
Gilbert Brule14th2.20.8944.6
Eric Wellwood14th6.62.6245
Erik Condra7th3.80.3350.3
John Mitchell11th11.10.8245.7
Artem Anisimov7th2.90.3452.7
Brandon Dubinsky3rd8.80.2341.8
Frans Nielsen2nd4.40.7943.8
Colin Wilson8th14.30.0549.9
Patric Hornqvist5th16.80.5154.8
Petr Sykora2nd7.61.1249.3
Dainius Zubrus3rd40.9549.5
Alexei Ponikarovsky7th11.20.246.8
Aaron Palushaj14th200.4548.5
Nick Johnson2nd-0.30.4542.5
Dwight King4th-5.40.4547.8
Marcel Goc1st9.21.0338.2
Martin Samuelsson2nd5.40.4845.9
Todd Bertuzzi4th0.91.1253.5
Adam Burish10th1.70.5443.2
Steve Ott4th6.80.0447.4
Viktor Stalberg6th11.80.1263.6
Daniel Carcillo12th6.31.8562.4
Marcus Kruger8th1.40.6844.5
Lee Stempniak9th10.50.3449.4
David Moss3rd10.3-0.1347.9
Vaclav Prospal4th13.30.6150.5
Cam Atkinson2nd11.70.6946
Patrick Dwyer1st-5.10.0137.4
Nathan Gerbe1st-1.50.2647.8
Saku Koivu3rd51.2248.6


Bring on the proposals
Where do you get your stats from out of curiosity?

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Old
09-04-2012, 01:51 AM
  #879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephias View Post
Anyone else remember when Meszaros, Preissing, and Pothier took turns leading our team in +/-?

I don't think they were our best defensemen in those years.
Haha... Meszaros is a perfect example of why +/- should always, always be taken with a massive grain of salt.

2005/06? He's +34 (Sens won 52 games)
2006/07? -15. (Sens won 48 games)
2007/08? +5. (43 games)

Then there's the Tampa Bay years (which were a debacle), then he gets +30 one year in Philly, but only +6 this past year. Both Philly years, the Flyers ended with exactly 47 wins.

It's such a BS stat, depends a ton on who you play with, where you play, system, and a big amount of luck. There is way, way to much variation in +/- on a year-to-year basis, even for the same player in many cases, for it to hold any weight.

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Old
09-04-2012, 03:23 AM
  #880
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Haha... Meszaros is a perfect example of why +/- should always, always be taken with a massive grain of salt.

2005/06? He's +34 (Sens won 52 games)
2006/07? -15. (Sens won 48 games)
2007/08? +5. (43 games)

Then there's the Tampa Bay years (which were a debacle), then he gets +30 one year in Philly, but only +6 this past year. Both Philly years, the Flyers ended with exactly 47 wins.

It's such a BS stat, depends a ton on who you play with, where you play, system, and a big amount of luck. There is way, way to much variation in +/- on a year-to-year basis, even for the same player in many cases, for it to hold any weight.
A billion times this. +/- tells you very little. Saying 'top players for Ottawa all had good +/-' doesn't validate the stat, especially when there are just as many examples of +/- overrating and underrating players. I could step onto the ice a half second before a goal and get a minus... How is it even remotely fair to hold the stat against players?

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Old
09-04-2012, 07:51 AM
  #881
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Originally Posted by brisbane sens fan View Post
Where do you get your stats from out of curiosity?
behindthenet.ca

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Haha... Meszaros is a perfect example of why +/- should always, always be taken with a massive grain of salt.

2005/06? He's +34 (Sens won 52 games)
2006/07? -15. (Sens won 48 games)
2007/08? +5. (43 games)

Then there's the Tampa Bay years (which were a debacle), then he gets +30 one year in Philly, but only +6 this past year. Both Philly years, the Flyers ended with exactly 47 wins.

It's such a BS stat, depends a ton on who you play with, where you play, system, and a big amount of luck. There is way, way to much variation in +/- on a year-to-year basis, even for the same player in many cases, for it to hold any weight.
You're not adjusting to ice time and to the team, and and you're not looking at it in context (strength of team and competition). Of course the number beside the points column fluctuates year to year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
A billion times this. +/- tells you very little. Saying 'top players for Ottawa all had good +/-' doesn't validate the stat, especially when there are just as many examples of +/- overrating and underrating players. I could step onto the ice a half second before a goal and get a minus... How is it even remotely fair to hold the stat against players?
How often does that happen? And you could just step off the ice and the other team scores. Goes both ways.





Guys, with my method, Sidney Crosby is by far the best player in the world. The top 3 defensemen (clear cut) are Karlsson, Weber and Chara. I'd say it works at least somewhat.

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Old
09-04-2012, 09:12 AM
  #882
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
... OK. So he's a little more valuable than his numbers suggest.

fyi I like him

You cannot put a value on the fact players like Karlsson and Spezza are more confident having a guy like Neil on their team. If you go after one of them you have to pay the price.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
How often does that happen?
Surprisingly often. I think it was Foligno in a game we won 2-1 and he had an assist was was still a -1. Just because he passed and got off the ice. kinda funny lol

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Old
09-04-2012, 09:53 AM
  #883
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You're not adjusting to ice time and to the team, and and you're not looking at it in context (strength of team and competition). Of course the number beside the points column fluctuates year to year.
Woah. No. No no no.

YOU said on the last page that +/- is a valid way of determining a player's skill. You even challenged that idea here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
How do you explain the best players on the team having the top +/-?
I ask: Meszaros, by your own method, was an absolute STAR player in 2005/06. And he was an absolute bum in 2006-07. And he sort of just... broke even the next year. And by YOUR method, Meszaros was an absolute stud for the Flyers 2 year ago. This year, he was awful by comparison right up until he hurt his back. And he was terribad with the Lightning.

If +/- has ANY validity outside of being an extreme fringe stat, you should have a very valid explanation for why Meszaros's +/- is literally all over the map.

I can wait.

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Old
09-04-2012, 12:03 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Woah. No. No no no.

YOU said on the last page that +/- is a valid way of determining a player's skill. You even challenged that idea here:


I ask: Meszaros, by your own method, was an absolute STAR player in 2005/06. And he was an absolute bum in 2006-07. And he sort of just... broke even the next year. And by YOUR method, Meszaros was an absolute stud for the Flyers 2 year ago. This year, he was awful by comparison right up until he hurt his back. And he was terribad with the Lightning.

If +/- has ANY validity outside of being an extreme fringe stat, you should have a very valid explanation for why Meszaros's +/- is literally all over the map.

I can wait.
SEASON GP TOI/60 Corsi Rel QoC Corsi Rel QoT+/-
2011-2012 62 16.04 -0.040 -0.545 +6
2010-2011 81 15.93 0.089 -0.530 +30

Anybody with a passing interest in Corsi could tell you that his slightly lower quality of teamates, and 19 fewer games in 2012 combined to negatively affect his +/-, regardless of his lower qualoty of competition from 2012 .

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Old
09-04-2012, 12:49 PM
  #885
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How often does that happen? And you could just step off the ice and the other team scores. Goes both ways.
Yes, it does go both ways, which throws off the validity of the stat when you try to use it to assess a player's skill. That was my point. You're agreeing with me here but at the same time disagreeing with me.

It's the consensus worst stat in hockey for player evaluation (besides perhaps Wins as an assessment of goaltending skill).

You even agree with this. By admitting that 'you need to contextualize +/- by looking at Corsi, QualComp, and other stats' you're essentially saying '+/- is useless by itself'

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Old
09-04-2012, 12:53 PM
  #886
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Landeskog just became the youngest captain in NHL history.

Damn that winning streak at the end of the 2011 season sucked

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Old
09-04-2012, 01:04 PM
  #887
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Blues fan here. Just came back from the St. Louis camp. Bishop looked very good. He stayed square VERY well.

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09-04-2012, 01:04 PM
  #888
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Landeskog just became the youngest captain in NHL history.

Damn that winning streak at the end of the 2011 season sucked
A lot of our fans didn't wanna spend 2nd overall on a grinder though.

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Old
09-04-2012, 01:05 PM
  #889
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Landeskog just became the youngest captain in NHL history.

Damn that winning streak at the end of the 2011 season sucked
I know...I know...

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Old
09-04-2012, 01:13 PM
  #890
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Blues fan here. Just came back from the St. Louis camp. Bishop looked very good. He stayed square VERY well.
I wonder if he forgot that he was traded to the Sens.

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Old
09-04-2012, 01:14 PM
  #891
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Blues fan here. Just came back from the St. Louis camp. Bishop looked very good. He stayed square VERY well.
Good to hear. Too bad we might not get to see that on display this year in Ottawa...

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Old
09-04-2012, 01:56 PM
  #892
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Blues fan here. Just came back from the St. Louis camp. Bishop looked very good. He stayed square VERY well.
I might just be a little slow or something but why is Bishop at the Blues camp?

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Old
09-04-2012, 02:03 PM
  #893
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I might just be a little slow or something but why is Bishop at the Blues camp?
He's from St. Louis. There's other hometown guys here as well.

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Old
09-04-2012, 02:05 PM
  #894
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He's from St. Louis. There's other hometown guys here as well.
And they're playing at the Blues Camp? Quoi?

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Old
09-04-2012, 02:20 PM
  #895
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And they're playing at the Blues Camp? Quoi?
It's not really a Blues camp. Just a bunch of guys that live in the area training. Most of them just happen to be Blues.

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Old
09-04-2012, 02:24 PM
  #896
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It's not really a Blues camp. Just a bunch of guys that live in the area training. Most of them just happen to be Blues.
Just like how Chris Kelly is skating with some of the Sens at the Sensplex in Kanata. Some dude from the Jets was there as well. Ottawa Sun posted some pics on their website.

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09-04-2012, 02:47 PM
  #897
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It's not really a Blues camp. Just a bunch of guys that live in the area training. Most of them just happen to be Blues.
Ah ok. This makes more sense.

I'm glad to hear he's doing well. Hopefully there's a lot of competition in training camp between Andy, Bishop and Lehnsanity.

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Old
09-04-2012, 03:34 PM
  #898
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Karlsson being Karlsson, enjoy.

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Old
09-04-2012, 03:52 PM
  #899
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^ I just sat there for like 20 minutes watching that gif over and over

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Old
09-04-2012, 03:57 PM
  #900
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Karlsson being Karlsson, enjoy.
that is more hypnotic than boobs on a trampoline.

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