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Free Agency & General Offseason Thread Part IV: Will there be NHL hockey this year?

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Old
08-13-2012, 10:36 AM
  #76
John Holmes*
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That's why they are called "rumors"

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08-13-2012, 10:39 AM
  #77
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Sens Chirp is reporting it from the tweets. Does that make it OK?

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08-13-2012, 11:29 AM
  #78
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Personally, I'd want to see a limit on the length of contracts...

IMO, signing someone to a 15 year deal is just stupid ala DiPietro.

Put maybe, 8 years max on it. That way, you can make the FA period a bit more fun, and it allows other teams at least a hope of getting better players year in year out...

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08-13-2012, 12:20 PM
  #79
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The other important fact to remember is that Gary Bettman does not have the authority to act alone. He is merely an employee of the Board of Governors. A very well paid employee, mind you, but an employee nonetheless. He isn't taking any positions forward to the NHLPA that haven't been approved by his Board, and any deal he strikes has to be approved by his Board. The owners call the shots here - Bettman is just their rep.

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08-13-2012, 12:21 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
There is so much wrong with this.

First, a cap system is based on revenue, if the league revenue rises/drops the amount available for player's salaries rises/drops... escrow is used as the withholding mechanism. There is nothing about the system that isn't sustainable as long as the owners have an effective revenue sharing system.

As far as the players being greedy, I can't disagree more. The current CBA, the definition of what consisted of hockey revenue and the division of the revenue was set by the owners. The system is working as designed by and implemented by the league.

I have no problem with the owners wanting to re-negotiate the division of revenue, but to describe it as anything but a cash grab by the owners is just wrong. The only result the current proposal will bring, the rich teams get richer.

As I posted earlier, the NHL will never truly be healthy until the billionaires share a greater percentage with each other, there isn't any other solution.
Many teams are losing money including the sens but you dont see a problem with the percentage of revenue shared between the players and the owners? When its 7% higher in the NHL then any of the major sports leagues? So yes the inflation isnt sustainable when more then a third of the league is losing money. There are 2 solutions one is to even out the amount of revenue being dispersed by the players and owners the second is to have more revenue sharing between the owners. I agree it would be a healthier league if owners shared more of the overall revenue, however something has to be said with operating and offering a good product, and franchise value.

Yes the players are being greedy, what makes them more valuable to the sport then other professional athletes?

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:23 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert View Post
Many teams are losing money including the sens but you dont see a problem with the percentage of revenue shared between the players and the owners? When its 7% higher in the NHL then any of the major sports leagues? So yes the inflation isnt sustainable when more then a third of the league is losing money. There are 2 solutions one is to even out the amount of revenue being dispersed by the players and owners the second is to have more revenue sharing between the owners. I agree it would be a healthier league if owners shared more of the overall revenue, however something has to be said with operating and offering a good product, and franchise value.

Yes the players are being greedy, what makes them more valuable to the sport then other professional athletes?
The players used to make ~75% of league revenues... the owners have it way better than they'd like to admit. They just want to subsidize the small market teams on the PA's dime.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:30 PM
  #82
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People understand that the Sens aren't actually losing money, right?

It's called creative accounting.

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08-13-2012, 12:36 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
People understand that the Sens aren't actually losing money, right?

It's called creative accounting.
They have lost money 2 of the last 3 years.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:42 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert View Post
They have lost money 2 of the last 3 years.
You're obviously not familiar with Eugene Melnyk then and have simply googled the stats put out.

Eugene Melnyk owns the Scotiabank Place. He owns all the parking. He owns all of that stuff. He simply puts the money towards that, and at the end of the day the fact that he can "move" money allows him to decided if he wants people to know that he's profitable, or not. Conveniently, Melnyk saying "We don't make money unless we make Round 2 of the Playoffs" also allows him to say "We aren't going to be a cap team so we can save money".

I know I've explained this wrong, but I KNOW I'm right and I'd love for someone else on the board to be able to explain this better.

EDIT: Also was going to say that you were wrong and it wasn't 3 of the last 4 years, but you edited that out.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:43 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
The players used to make ~75% of league revenues... the owners have it way better than they'd like to admit. They just want to subsidize the small market teams on the PA's dime.
Thus making it a healthier league, in the NBA and NFL the players get 50% and 48% while in the NHL they get 57% why shouldnt it be the same?

I dont think that if one owner bought a franchise for more, or develops a better product by doing running a franchise more efficiently that he should have to share all of his profits. That doesn't make sense, yes they should be sharing some of the revenue but not to the point where it negates the good work they have done.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:44 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert View Post
They have lost money 2 of the last 3 years.
The Ottawa Senators TEAM sure... but Ottawa Sports and Entertainment isn't losing money. Like Manked stated Melnyk owns everything that has to do with Scotiabank etc therefore everytime there's a concert or anything that's money in the bank.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:44 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
You're obviously not familiar with Eugene Melnyk then and have simply googled the stats put out.

Eugene Melnyk owns the Scotiabank Place. He owns all the parking. He owns all of that stuff. He simply puts the money towards that, and at the end of the day the fact that he can "move" money allows him to decided if he wants people to know that he's profitable, or not. Conveniently, Melnyk saying "We don't make money unless we make Round 2 of the Playoffs" also allows him to say "We aren't going to be a cap team so we can save money".

I know I've explained this wrong, but I KNOW I'm right and I'd love for someone else on the board to be able to explain this better.

EDIT: Also was going to say that you were wrong and it wasn't 3 of the last 4 years, but you edited that out.
I guarantee my source is more creditable then yours. They did not specify whether your theory is correct but the actually product of the Ottawa Senators has lost money 2 of the last 3 years.

You maybe right in saying that the overall company is not losing money if the cap floor keeps going up how long will that last?

We are losing track of the argument, the point is the players are going to be the ones that have to give in here if the league is going to be healthy. If a healthy franchise like the senators are having to move money around from other avenues withing the company what does that say about the rest of the league?

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:46 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert View Post
I guarantee my source is more creditable then yours.

We are losing track of the argument, the point is the players are going to be the ones that have to give in here if the league is going to be healthy. If a healthy franchise like the senators are having to move money around from other avenues withing the company what does that say about the rest of the league?
Buddy, it's not a "source". I don't have any sources.

It's just WELL KNOWN in Ottawa that the Senators accounting department likes moving money from the "Senators" to the "Scotiabank Place" so at the end of the day the Senators don't appear profitable.

It's well known. Like seriously, I don't know why you're trying to argue this.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:47 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Straka View Post
The Ottawa Senators TEAM sure... but Ottawa Sports and Entertainment isn't losing money. Like Manked stated Melnyk owns everything that has to do with Scotiabank etc therefore everytime there's a concert or anything that's money in the bank.
Thank you.

I didn't know you could make it sound so simple, but you did.

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Old
08-13-2012, 12:54 PM
  #90
John Holmes*
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The players gave in last time.

The owners are crying poor. Again.

You don't say...

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Old
08-13-2012, 01:04 PM
  #91
Marvelous Manked
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Also, stop talking like you have some top secret source that you have to consult during your arguments.

I suppose that if this was a documentary, he'd be that guy who had a voice changer and we couldn't see his face, right?

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Old
08-13-2012, 01:06 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert View Post
I guarantee my source is more creditable then yours.
Sure, but is your source more credible?

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Old
08-13-2012, 01:09 PM
  #93
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Sure, but is your source more credible?
ouch

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Old
08-13-2012, 01:26 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert View Post
They have lost money 2 of the last 3 years.
This statement is just not correct.

In 2011 the Sens had a operating profit of $2.8M, the 2012 numbers aren't available however it is safe to say the operating profit was even higher than 2011, given lower salary expense and playoff revenue.

From 2002-2011 the Ottawa Senators have shown an aggregate profit of $9.5M. Definitely not a lot of money, but still in the black.

However before you feel too sorry for Melynk, he also owns the wholly private Senators Sports and Entertainment, and financial reporting is unavailable. This company books all revenue from non-related hockey events at SBP, as well as shared revenue from the partnership with Capital Tickets. Probably safe to assume this company is making an annual profit.

As well Melnyk invested $92M to buy the franchise, the latest evaluation ~$201M.

Ottawa Senators hockey has/is doing just fine for Eugene financially.

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Old
08-13-2012, 01:29 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
This statement is just not correct.

In 2011 the Sens had a operating profit of $2.8M, the 2012 numbers aren't available however it is safe to say the operating profit was even higher than 2011, given lower salary expense and playoff revenue.

From 2002-2011 the Ottawa Senators have shown an aggregate profit of $9.5M. Definitely not a lot of money, but still in the black.

However before you feel too sorry for Melynk, he also owns the wholly private Senators Sports and Entertainment, and financial reporting is unavailable. This company books all revenue from non-related hockey events at SBP, as well as shared revenue from the partnership with Capital Tickets. Probably safe to assume this company is making an annual profit.

As well Melnyk invested $92M to buy the franchise, the latest evaluations ~$201M.

Ottawa Senators hockey has/is doing just fine for Eugene financially.
BOOM! There you have it.

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Old
08-13-2012, 01:30 PM
  #96
Marvelous Manked
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
This statement is just not correct.

In 2011 the Sens had a operating profit of $2.8M, the 2012 numbers aren't available however it is safe to say the operating profit was even higher than 2011, given lower salary expense and playoff revenue.

From 2002-2011 the Ottawa Senators have shown an aggregate profit of $9.5M. Definitely not a lot of money, but still in the black.

However before you feel too sorry for Melynk, he also owns the wholly private Senators Sports and Entertainment, and financial reporting is unavailable. This company books all revenue from non-related hockey events at SBP, as well as shared revenue from the partnership with Capital Tickets. Probably safe to assume this company is making an annual profit.

As well Melnyk invested $92M to buy the franchise, the latest evaluation ~$201M.

Ottawa Senators hockey has/is doing just fine for Eugene financially.
Thanks for putting some numbers and evidence to my claim.

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Old
08-13-2012, 01:46 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert View Post
I guarantee my source is more creditable then yours. They did not specify whether your theory is correct but the actually product of the Ottawa Senators has lost money 2 of the last 3 years.

You maybe right in saying that the overall company is not losing money if the cap floor keeps going up how long will that last?
This isn't about theories or sources - these are financial results. It's a private company though, so the info is not as readily available.

But if the team loses money but the organization as a whole is profitable it doesn't matter - you can't say the team is losing money because its irrelevant.

Its like how most people who have a second home as a rental property try and move all of their expenses to that residence, so it doesn't appear as profitable and they pay less tax overall.

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Old
08-13-2012, 02:00 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by bert View Post
Thus making it a healthier league, in the NBA and NFL the players get 50% and 48% while in the NHL they get 57% why shouldnt it be the same?

I dont think that if one owner bought a franchise for more, or develops a better product by doing running a franchise more efficiently that he should have to share all of his profits. That doesn't make sense, yes they should be sharing some of the revenue but not to the point where it negates the good work they have done.
You could say the same for the players. They all work hard to earn their money, why should they have to foot the bill for increased revenue sharing? Especially when the owners make more money than just HRR (for example, they might only see 60% of their venue revenues count toward HRR, despite the owner owning both the venue and the team), but the players are only entitled to a portion of the HRR pot.

The reality is the top-5 or so teams make far more money (proportionally) than anybody else in the league, but they're also the ones that don't want to give any of that money up - instead they're trying to change definitions of HRR and the % of HRR players receive to provide more revenue sharing dollars.


Last edited by CanadianHockey: 08-13-2012 at 02:06 PM.
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Old
08-13-2012, 02:01 PM
  #99
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They are all bogus... they don't break anything they have the stupidest rumours and anything they get right they rip off others.. hell one of them said Coliacavo signed with the Flyers yesterday.. Is it true? nope.

I don't like the guy, but he's actually broken a lot. And been the first to do so. I understand you hate the source, but many people have seen first hand the stories he's broke.

And he never said the Flyers signed Carlo. He said they had an offer on the table for him.

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08-13-2012, 02:03 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
This statement is just not correct.

In 2011 the Sens had a operating profit of $2.8M, the 2012 numbers aren't available however it is safe to say the operating profit was even higher than 2011, given lower salary expense and playoff revenue.

From 2002-2011 the Ottawa Senators have shown an aggregate profit of $9.5M. Definitely not a lot of money, but still in the black.

However before you feel too sorry for Melynk, he also owns the wholly private Senators Sports and Entertainment, and financial reporting is unavailable. This company books all revenue from non-related hockey events at SBP, as well as shared revenue from the partnership with Capital Tickets. Probably safe to assume this company is making an annual profit.

As well Melnyk invested $92M to buy the franchise, the latest evaluation ~$201M.

Ottawa Senators hockey has/is doing just fine for Eugene financially.
What is your source for these numbers? Find it very hard to believe that there are any accurate numbers available given that the Sens are privately-held.

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