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Free Agency & General Offseason Thread Part IV: Will there be NHL hockey this year?

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Old
08-13-2012, 02:25 PM
  #101
bert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
You could say the same for the players. They all work hard to earn their money, why should they have to foot the bill for increased revenue sharing? Especially when the owners make more money than just HRR (for example, they might only see 60% of their venue revenues count toward HRR, despite the owner owning both the venue and the team), but the players are only entitled to a portion of the HRR pot.

The reality is the top-5 or so teams make far more money (proportionally) than anybody else in the league, but they're also the ones that don't want to give any of that money up - instead they're trying to change definitions of HRR and the % of HRR players receive to provide more revenue sharing dollars.
I understand and you make some very good points. Id like to see adjustments made from both sides. I agree that the players generate there market value, however I think if its a profitable organization and product then no one should be losing money. So adjustments should be made from both sides. Parody is very good for the league and with the current CBA its only going to get worse for small market franchises.

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08-13-2012, 02:48 PM
  #102
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Parody...ha.

You can't believe anything the owners say. The minnesota quote from earlier in the thread was priceless. Crying poor then dumping a boatload of money on the two big free agents mere months later.

I really don't want to listen to all the CBA BS that's going to go back and forth for the next month.

Perhaps a thread devoted to the CBA would be a good idea so the people that get nauseous reading about it can avoid it?

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Old
08-13-2012, 03:00 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Parody...ha.

You can't believe anything the owners say. The minnesota quote from earlier in the thread was priceless. Crying poor then dumping a boatload of money on the two big free agents mere months later.

I really don't want to listen to all the CBA BS that's going to go back and forth for the next month.

Perhaps a thread devoted to the CBA would be a good idea so the people that get nauseous reading about it can avoid it?
I completely agree with this. The big problem is the owners/NHL need to save themselves from themselves. The contracts and term being signed are ridiculous yet each team does whatever they can to stay competitive and attract fans.

I'm not really agreeing with any side. What I do know is that any business model that fails needs to be replaced. This is just standard across the board in any company. If I make a bunch of working policies with my employees and mangers which result in negative behavior... I change those policies!!

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08-13-2012, 03:01 PM
  #104
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This ******* ******** clown says the Ryan talk is heating up and the Sens are players.
Funny enough, deadspin just came out with an article that this guy got tracked down and it's not surprisingly some 17 year old kid.

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08-13-2012, 03:11 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by House That Rod Built View Post
What is your source for these numbers? Find it very hard to believe that there are any accurate numbers available given that the Sens are privately-held.
His source is Forbes:

http://www.forbes.com/teams/ottawa-senators/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
This statement is just not correct.

In 2011 the Sens had a operating profit of $2.8M, the 2012 numbers aren't available however it is safe to say the operating profit was even higher than 2011, given lower salary expense and playoff revenue.

From 2002-2011 the Ottawa Senators have shown an aggregate profit of $9.5M. Definitely not a lot of money, but still in the black.

However before you feel too sorry for Melynk, he also owns the wholly private Senators Sports and Entertainment, and financial reporting is unavailable. This company books all revenue from non-related hockey events at SBP, as well as shared revenue from the partnership with Capital Tickets. Probably safe to assume this company is making an annual profit.

As well Melnyk invested $92M to buy the franchise, the latest evaluation ~$201M.

Ottawa Senators hockey has/is doing just fine for Eugene financially.
You've made the mistake of assuming operating income is equal to profit. The footnote on Forbes page clearly states that it is earnings before interest payments, and taxes which would give you the actual profit (if there is any). That being said, it is clear that Melnyk is making money in this venture due to the other income sources, however one must wonder how sustainable this is with the rate at which revenues league wide are increasing.

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08-13-2012, 03:48 PM
  #106
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Well one blogger suggested that yy rr is Frank Mahovlich, which I doubt.

In any event, Ryan is a good fit. I wouldn't give up a current top 6er but I imagine that a similar package to what the rumored offer for Nash was would be reasonable. Zbad, another of the prospect f's and a pick.

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Old
08-13-2012, 04:25 PM
  #107
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OKKKK fellas, enough of this CBA stuuff, we've bigger fish to fry...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptPantalones View Post
Well, supposedly buffalo offered Sekera for foligno at the draft and Ottawa turned it down..
^^^^^^

!!!!!!!!!!!


Is that FACT or FICTION???


If indeed fact...

Bryan Murray is officially the worst GM in hockey

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08-13-2012, 04:30 PM
  #108
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OKKKK fellas, enough of this CBA stuuff, we've bigger fish to fry...



^^^^^^

!!!!!!!!!!!


Is that FACT or FICTION???


If indeed fact...

Bryan Murray is officially the worst GM in hockey
Yeah, I don't buy it.

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Old
08-13-2012, 04:33 PM
  #109
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Yeah, I don't buy it.
It better not be, otherwise my secret stash of cyanide pills is looking pretty appealing right now...

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Old
08-13-2012, 04:37 PM
  #110
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It better not be, otherwise my secret stash of cyanide pills is looking pretty appealing right now...
I'd be disappointed if he turned that down regardless of division rival ******** that gets thrown around.

However, Murray could trade Jason Spezza for Paul Gaustad and he still wouldn't be the worst GM in NHL history.

Milbury.

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Old
08-13-2012, 04:41 PM
  #111
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Bob Gainey has to be in that conversation.

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08-13-2012, 04:44 PM
  #112
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Bob Gainey has to be in that conversation.
Won't disagree there.

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Old
08-13-2012, 04:49 PM
  #113
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If we get Ryan we will win the division. Plain and simple. We are lacking two very important things that are stopping us from a cup run. 1)A top flight star forward and 2)A solid number 2 defender.

We could see that defender develop in possibly 2 years in Cowen and possibly Ceci but that forward is up in the air. I know we can fill the other top 6 holes with guys like Silfverberg/Noesen/Puempel/Petersson That's why I'm willing to give up Zibanejad for a young, powerforward, proven 30 goal-scorer. Since when do those guys become available?

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Old
08-13-2012, 04:53 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellogs View Post
His source is Forbes:

http://www.forbes.com/teams/ottawa-senators/



You've made the mistake of assuming operating income is equal to profit. The footnote on Forbes page clearly states that it is earnings before interest payments, and taxes which would give you the actual profit (if there is any). That being said, it is clear that Melnyk is making money in this venture due to the other income sources, however one must wonder how sustainable this is with the rate at which revenues league wide are increasing.
Bingo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
If we get Ryan we will win the division. Plain and simple. We are lacking two very important things that are stopping us from a cup run. 1)A top flight star forward and 2)A solid number 2 defender.

We could see that defender develop in possibly 2 years in Cowen and possibly Ceci but that forward is up in the air. I know we can fill the other top 6 holes with guys like Silfverberg/Noesen/Puempel/Petersson That's why I'm willing to give up Zibanejad for a young, powerforward, proven 30 goal-scorer. Since when do those guys become available?

I dont know if it guarantee's the sens the division but he is exactly what they need. You're also right about asset management, in that the sens can afford to trade a prospect like Zibanejad due to the strong drafting. I wonder if Zib, Weircioch, Bishop and Petersson/DaCosta/Prince/Pageau/Hoffman would get it done? I feel like they would want one of Smith or Greening to be included with a package around Zibanejad.

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Old
08-13-2012, 05:05 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by bert View Post
I dont know if it guarantee's the sens the division but he is exactly what they need. You're also right about asset management, in that the sens can afford to trade a prospect like Zibanejad due to the strong drafting. I wonder if Zib, Weircioch, Bishop and Petersson/DaCosta/Prince/Pageau/Hoffman would get it done? I feel like they would want one of Smith or Greening to be included with a package around Zibanejad.
The Ducks will be looking for immediate help and don't need any goaltending help after they just signed Fasth. I think Greening would have to be included.

Zibanejad
1st
Greening

Maybe another small piece but that would be the main entertained idea, imo.

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Old
08-13-2012, 05:12 PM
  #116
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We're not getting Ryan.

It makes no sense since you can be certain he'd get out of Ottawa as soon as he could

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08-13-2012, 05:14 PM
  #117
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We're not getting Ryan.

It makes no sense since you can be certain he'd get out of Ottawa as soon as he could
I forgot you knew him.

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08-13-2012, 05:27 PM
  #118
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Many teams are losing money including the sens but you dont see a problem with the percentage of revenue shared between the players and the owners? When its 7% higher in the NHL then any of the major sports leagues? So yes the inflation isnt sustainable when more then a third of the league is losing money. There are 2 solutions one is to even out the amount of revenue being dispersed by the players and owners the second is to have more revenue sharing between the owners. I agree it would be a healthier league if owners shared more of the overall revenue, however something has to be said with operating and offering a good product, and franchise value.

Yes the players are being greedy, what makes them more valuable to the sport then other professional athletes?
You are attempting to link the cause of teams losing money to the current division of revenues, which just isn't the reality.

The NHL has a small-market revenue problem, this is the issue.

In May 2012 Bettman announced an all-time record $3.3 billion in revenue for the league, highlighted by record advertising sales and sponsorship activation.

With a financial picture that bright, why were so many teams losing money?

It is simply because not every team is showing revenue growth equal to the aggregate revenue growth of the league. The result is for many teams their player costs are rising faster than their revenues due to the salary cap requirements.

This is the economic issue Bettman is referring to as the major issue facing the owners. He is absolutely right, it is, what I disagree with is the proposed solution.

The NHL proposal is for the owners to take a larger share of the revenue, which in turn lowers the players cost. In theory this should help the revenue challenged team show a profit or lose less. Meanwhile the 12 teams that are making money, just make more money. The rich get richer.

Who really is greedy?

Essentially what the league is proposing now, is no different than what they wanted and got in 2005 with the current CBA. So why would a reasonable person conclude this proposal is going to result in a different ending?

In 2011, 12 teams out of 30 had an operating profit, the rest declared a loss. Of the 18 teams that declared a loss, twelve would not have incurred a loss by spending closer to the cap floor than the upper limit. Owner's prerogative, not necessarily player greed.

The remaining six clubs realistically had little to no opportunity to make money and were not surprisingly at or near the bottom of the league in team revenue.

IMO when a league has revenue disparity (2011) from top to bottom of ~$132M, increasing the owner's share of the overall revenue only masks a significantly deeper and recurring problem.

IMO if the owners aren't willing (and they haven't been) to engage in a better division of revenues between franchises, then contraction or relocation of the bottom 5/6 revenue earners is the only long term solution.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 08-13-2012 at 07:35 PM.
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08-13-2012, 05:53 PM
  #119
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[QUOTE=Kellogs;53538171]His source is Forbes:

http://www.forbes.com/teams/ottawa-senators/

QUOTE]

While Forbes is a respectable magazine, let's keep in mind that these are Forbes' estimates. They should not be treated as fact.

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08-13-2012, 06:33 PM
  #120
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As amazing as it would be to get Ryan, it's just such a long shot. If Anaheim's price was a little more realistic than I am sure Murray would be a serious player for him, but when you're not a Cup contender it doesn't make sense to overpay for a play that wouldn't be that final piece. Ryan would certainly make the Sens a top threat in the East and contend for the division but you really can't blame Anaheim for swinging for the fences here.

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:03 PM
  #121
Kellogs
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Originally Posted by House That Rod Built View Post
While Forbes is a respectable magazine, let's keep in mind that these are Forbes' estimates. They should not be treated as fact.
Of course, but it's the best we've got, along with Melnyk's claims that we need to make the second round to break even.

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08-13-2012, 07:19 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Kellogs View Post
You've made the mistake of assuming operating income is equal to profit. The footnote on Forbes page clearly states that it is earnings before interest payments, and taxes which would give you the actual profit (if there is any). That being said, it is clear that Melnyk is making money in this venture due to the other income sources, however one must wonder how sustainable this is with the rate at which revenues league wide are increasing.
No I didn't.

First, there is no tax system in the free world that has a tax rate greater than 100%, so while it may reduce the profit it will never turn it into a loss.

Interest expense, has anyone seen a financial statement or a tax return that shows the Ottawa Senators paid after tax interest expense?

The only way the Sens lost money in 2011 is to assume they made after tax interest payments. However in Canada, money borrowed for the purposes of earning income from a business or property is consider to be a business expense and is tax deductible.

Therefore the number shown on Forbes would be the profit the Senators made in 2011 after expenses (including interest expense) less tax paid.

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08-13-2012, 07:27 PM
  #123
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[QUOTE=House That Rod Built;53542629]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellogs View Post
His source is Forbes:

http://www.forbes.com/teams/ottawa-senators/

QUOTE]

While Forbes is a respectable magazine, let's keep in mind that these are Forbes' estimates. They should not be treated as fact.
Not positive but I do believe Forbes gets their data from the NHL.

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:32 PM
  #124
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Of course, but it's the best we've got, along with Melnyk's claims that we need to make the second round to break even.
Well I doubt Eugene is going to offer to publish an annual statement so we can be 100% sure.

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Old
08-13-2012, 07:51 PM
  #125
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Well the twit we can't link to is at the very least making it easy for people to jump to the conclusion that he is our very own Alexandre Daigle. There is a podcast link you can track down on twitter if you are so inclined.

I listened to about half if it. Sounds like he could be Daigle. Claims to have been drafted in 93, went straight to the NHL. Claims go have played for 3 teams and worked for a 4th. Has a French accent. Claims his initials are either AD, DD or PM.

Anyway, it would be funny if it did end up being Daigle.

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