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The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXIX

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Old
09-16-2012, 04:23 AM
  #926
LiquidSnake
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Originally Posted by Figz14 View Post
He said that's all it took. That's obviously not all it took. Our forwards and defense were outmatched by theirs.
If and it's a big if, we swapped goalies I'd say the Canucks win that series. He was better than both of our goalies.

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09-16-2012, 07:05 AM
  #927
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People's expectations on here are just astronomical. It's not just add a top6 forward, but get one without giving up much... Like teams are looking to give these pieces away.


How many forwards that play on the 2nd line of their respective teams, would be available for trade? Further, how many of them are clear upgrades on what is already here. Last, how much more are those upgrades going to cost in depth/future assets?


Then there's the 3rd line C. These pieces cost. Short of trading 1st rnd picks + strong futures, you aren't getting clear solutions to these positions.


There was a time when everyone wondered if the Sedins could be 1st liners. A time when Kesler's offensive upside was questioned. A time when Bieksa came out of nowhere to secure a shutdown role next to Mitchell. A time when Edler burst onto the scene... Etc. Internal development can take place. And it can happen again.



Bottom line, it's always been about the players already here. Realistically, any potential additions, short of a superstar, is not going to change this team in any meaningful way. The team itself has to change. Has to evolve. Has to be better. Until that happens, they will struggle. But if they do take that next step... Look out.

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Old
09-16-2012, 12:57 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Don't forget Voynov. He'd be in our top 4.

Moves the puck better than Edler.
That Martinez guy seems pretty good too. Never even paid attention to him before the playoffs.

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Old
09-16-2012, 01:02 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by wholesickcrew View Post
Exactly. If you buy into the team philosophy, as the players seem to, it's all about process. It isn't matter of "c'est la vie" because no one wants this outcome, but dismissing causes makes no more sense than dismissing effects. The biggest team need was not on offense, but in adding a top-4 dman, which we did, and fine with that as a basis heading into the season, especially when we have Kassian with room to grow, Schroeder pushing for a spot, and a Luongo trade yet to happen.
The Canucks have scored 13 goals in the past 12 playoff games (2 series). Offense isn't the problem?

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:05 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Henrik>Kopitar
Daniel>>Carter
Kesler>/= Richards
Burrows=/<Brown
Booth<Williams
Higgins=Penner

Edler<Doughty
Hamhuis>Scuderi
Bieksa>/=Mitchell
Garrison>Green

Schneider</? Quick
Henrik > Kopitar
Daniel >> Carter
Burrows < Brown
Kesler< Richards
Booth <Williams
Higgins = Penner

Our offence outside the Sedins is dreadful. Because of it they have to carry the entire load. We don't have a single player that can exploit easier matchups. Happened once with Kesler against Nashville thats it.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:32 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
Henrik > Kopitar
Daniel >> Carter
Burrows < Brown
Kesler< Richards
Booth <Williams
Higgins = Penner

Our offence outside the Sedins is dreadful. Because of it they have to carry the entire load. We don't have a single player that can exploit easier matchups. Happened once with Kesler against Nashville thats it.
Agree with this assessment.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:32 PM
  #932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
Henrik > Kopitar
Daniel >> Carter
Burrows < Brown
Kesler< Richards
Booth <Williams
Higgins = Penner

Our offence outside the Sedins is dreadful. Because of it they have to carry the entire load. We don't have a single player that can exploit easier matchups. Happened once with Kesler against Nashville thats it.
Doesn't help when the Sedins are eating up most of our offensive zone starts. Our secondary scorers are starting from a position of weakness in comparison to the zone starts players in similar positions around the league receive.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:37 PM
  #933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
Henrik > Kopitar
Daniel >> Carter
Burrows < Brown
Kesler< Richards
Booth <Williams
Higgins = Penner

Our offence outside the Sedins is dreadful. Because of it they have to carry the entire load. We don't have a single player that can exploit easier matchups. Happened once with Kesler against Nashville thats it.
What puts Richards above Kesler in your mind? Kesler has outscored him in each of the last three seasons as well as winning a Selke trophy.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:40 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Doesn't help when the Sedins are eating up most of our offensive zone starts. Our secondary scorers are starting from a position of weakness in comparison to the zone starts players in similar positions around the league receive.
Our secondary scorers are starting in a position of weakness in comparison to the Sedins because they suck. Our second line is in the bottom 10 in this league not because we give them less O-Zone starts, but rather because they are just bad.

I'd also like to put out how overrated Higgins is on these boards. The guy is a decent filler piece, and that is all.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:42 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Doesn't help when the Sedins are eating up most of our offensive zone starts. Our secondary scorers are starting from a position of weakness in comparison to the zone starts players in similar positions around the league receive.
How does it hurt when our best offensive players are getting the most offensive zone starts? Makes no sense at all.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:43 PM
  #936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortshorts View Post
Our secondary scorers are starting in a position of weakness in comparison to the Sedins because they suck. Our second line is in the bottom 10 in this league not because we give them less O-Zone starts, but rather because they are just bad.

I'd also like to put out how overrated Higgins is on these boards. The guy is a decent filler piece, and that is all.
Which means that Gillis has failed to address this problematic area and that we badly need to upgrade our secondary scoring. This is why I say that the Luongo trade MUST bring back a legit top-6er, or else we are better off holding on to him.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:44 PM
  #937
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
How does it hurt when our best offensive players are getting the most offensive zone starts? Makes no sense at all.
I am suggesting that our secondary scoring is down because our top line is getting all those offensive zone starts. Are you suggesting that the Sedins wouldn't even be point per game players if they didn't get all those offensive zone starts?

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:45 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by shortshorts View Post
Our secondary scorers are starting in a position of weakness in comparison to the Sedins because they suck. Our second line is in the bottom 10 in this league not because we give them less O-Zone starts, but rather because they are just bad.

I'd also like to put out how overrated Higgins is on these boards. The guy is a decent filler piece, and that is all.
How is Higgins overrated? I don't recall seeing anyone say he's anything more than a solid 2nd/3rd line tweeter.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:52 PM
  #939
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I am suggesting that our secondary scoring is down because our top line is getting all those offensive zone starts. Are you suggesting that the Sedins wouldn't even be point per game players if they didn't get all those offensive zone starts?
Our secondary scoring is down because we have a 2nd line center who thinks he has to do it all himself which drags down the rest of the line. A half blind 3rd line center who has been demoted to the 4th line and a 4th line center who's been promoted to the 3rd line. Our secondary scoring drying up has less to do with the Sedins and more to do with the actual secondary scoring.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:53 PM
  #940
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Our secondary scoring is down because we have a 2nd line center who thinks he has to do it all himself which drags down the rest of the line. A half blind 3rd line center who has been demoted to the 4th line and a 4th line center who's been promoted to the 3rd line. Our secondary scoring drying up has less to do with the Sedins and more to do with the actual secondary scoring.
When comparing our secondary scorers to others around the league, how is it fair when they receive more o-zone starts than ours? How is that a fair comparison?

I think Kesler feels he has to do it all himself because he understands his linemates are subpar as well.

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:01 PM
  #941
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Couple of assumptions: NHL lockout lasts 4 months, Eric Gudbranson is healthy in time for training camp.

Assuming Edler doesn't want to re-sign here for a reasonable contract, how about a trade like this:

To Florida:
Roberto Luongo
Alex Edler
Mason Raymond
2nd round pick

To Vancouver:
Eric Gudbranson
Nick Bjugstad
Alex Petrovic
Shawn Matthias
1st round pick

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:03 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I am suggesting that our secondary scoring is down because our top line is getting all those offensive zone starts. Are you suggesting that the Sedins wouldn't even be point per game players if they didn't get all those offensive zone starts?
The Sedins don't need that many O zone starts to produce, infact I think this strategy is leading to them becoming somewhat lazy defensively and very easy to matchup against.

I don't think playing our other lines in those situations will lead to more offence, mainly because we have little skill on other lines, but it may help the Sedins get away from 5 man defensive units.

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:04 PM
  #943
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
When comparing our secondary scorers to others around the league, how is it fair when they receive more o-zone starts than ours? How is that a fair comparison?

I think Kesler feels he has to do it all himself because he understands his linemates are subpar as well.
I don't care about "fair", I want what's right. If you put your best offensive players in the best offensive situations, chances are you'll produce more offense. Pretty simple.

Kesler's play renders his linemates less effective.

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:07 PM
  #944
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Couple of assumptions: NHL lockout lasts 4 months, Eric Gudbranson is healthy in time for training camp.

Assuming Edler doesn't want to re-sign here for a reasonable contract, how about a trade like this:

To Florida:
Roberto Luongo
Alex Edler
Mason Raymond
2nd round pick

To Vancouver:
Eric Gudbranson
Nick Bjugstad
Alex Petrovic
Shawn Matthias
1st round pick
What on earth is this??? Very lopsided.

Assuming they decide to trade Gudbranson for Edler ( doubtful), and Matthias and Raymond cancel each other out, thats leaves

Bjugstad, Petrovic, and a 1st for Luongo and a 2nd? It seems they are reluctant to trade Bjugstad OR Petrovic OR a 1st for Luongo ...and you have included all 3

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:07 PM
  #945
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I don't care about "fair", I want what's right. If you put your best offensive players in the best offensive situations, chances are you'll produce more offense. Pretty simple.

Kesler's play renders his linemates less effective.
Then why are we complaining about our secondary scoring? Shouldn't we then be complaining that our primary scorers aren't producing at a substantially higher rate than other primary scorers around the league, given their advantage in o-zone starts?

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:08 PM
  #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
What on earth is this??? Very lopsided.

Assuming they decide to trade Gudbranson for Edler ( doubtful), and Matthias and Raymond cancel each other out, thats leaves

Bjugstad, Petrovic, and a 1st for Luongo and a 2nd? It seems they are reluctant to trade Bjugstad OR Petrovic OR a 1st for Luongo ...and you have included all 3
Regardless of how you feel about Luongo or what people on the Trade board will say, he is an elite goalie and has value.

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:12 PM
  #947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Couple of assumptions: NHL lockout lasts 4 months, Eric Gudbranson is healthy in time for training camp.

Assuming Edler doesn't want to re-sign here for a reasonable contract, how about a trade like this:

To Florida:
Roberto Luongo
Alex Edler
Mason Raymond
2nd round pick

To Vancouver:
Eric Gudbranson
Nick Bjugstad
Alex Petrovic
Shawn Matthias
1st round pick
Florida definitely says no, I would say no because we'd be replacing Edler with two defenseman who aren't even top-4 yet.(Gudbranson played extremely sheltered minutes and didn't produce much, although in a few years that might change. I see him as very similar to Luke Schenn right now).

Bored, so how about Kesler + Luongo for Weiss + Huberdeau?

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:12 PM
  #948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Couple of assumptions: NHL lockout lasts 4 months, Eric Gudbranson is healthy in time for training camp.

Assuming Edler doesn't want to re-sign here for a reasonable contract, how about a trade like this:

To Florida:
Roberto Luongo
Alex Edler
Mason Raymond
2nd round pick

To Vancouver:
Eric Gudbranson
Nick Bjugstad
Alex Petrovic
Shawn Matthias
1st round pick
Makes us a better team in the future, but kills us now

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:14 PM
  #949
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Then why are we complaining about our secondary scoring? Shouldn't we then be complaining that our primary scorers aren't producing at a substantially higher rate than other primary scorers around the league, given their advantage in o-zone starts?
We're complaining that our secondary scoring isn't scoring. If they did score at a better clip perhaps they'd get more offensive zone starts...if they are spinning their wheels offensively why give them more opportunities to fail when you've got a better option in the Sedins? The Sedins would have put up better numbers if they had some legitimate secondary scoring behind them because it takes pressure off them to produce.

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:18 PM
  #950
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Regardless of how you feel about Luongo or what people on the Trade board will say, he is an elite goalie and has value.
He is no longer elite, but he is still a very good goalie and yes he has value.

But his contract and declining play diminishes his value abit.

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