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what should the offensive lines look like next season?

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Old
08-13-2012, 01:36 PM
  #26
Ivan13
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Sacco was juggling lines because two of them played like crap.

And to those who are splitting up Radar and Landeskog, which line will be our shut-down line, used against other teams top lines? Remember Winnik and Jay are gone and our 4th line is made out of McLeod, defensively challenged center in Mitchell and Kobasew.

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08-13-2012, 01:39 PM
  #27
WarriorOfGandhi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthesis View Post
Landeskog - Duchene - Parenteau
McGinn - Stastny - Jones
Hejduk - O'Reilly - Downie
I agree with this as well. First unit PP: Landy-Dutch-Staz-PAP-EJ, second unit ROR-McGinn-Jones-Downie-Elliott

Each line has a physical presence, a playmaker, and a finisher. This has probably been the only year that ROR will ever outscore both Duchene and Stastny if both are healthy and I don't see him playing on the top line and first unit PP much more. I really like the idea of the top line, as I believe a lot of Duchene's offense stalled last season because he never had the time and space that Landy and PAP could provide, resorting instead to Forsberg power moves that never worked. Really think that he could take off with the right linemates instead of having to play on Stastny's wing again.

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08-13-2012, 01:42 PM
  #28
WarriorOfGandhi
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Sacco was juggling lines because two of them played like crap.

And to those who are splitting up Radar and Landeskog, which line will be our shut-down line, used against other teams top lines? Remember Winnik and Jay are gone and our 4th line is made out of McLeod, defensively challenged center in Mitchell and Kobasew.
Mitchell was one of the best possession guys on NYR last season. He's not the McClement type of defensive center but looks to be quite capable of controlling the play. McLeod and Kobasew are still awful, however, and will likely limit his effectiveness.

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08-13-2012, 01:50 PM
  #29
Ivan13
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
Mitchell was one of the best possession guys on NYR last season. He's not the McClement type of defensive center but looks to be quite capable of controlling the play. McLeod and Kobasew are still awful, however, and will likely limit his effectiveness.
To me he's a guy who's always trying to do too much with the puck and I really don't see him as a good defensive player.

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08-13-2012, 01:57 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthesis View Post
Certainly you're not talking about Joe Sacco of the Avalanche right? Because he is known for line juggling on a shift by shift basis, not every ten games...

I think it is inevitable that Lando will end up next to Duchene. I love watching Lando and RoR together, but that won't last forever. RoR is not on Lando's level. Lando is our most talented forward, and his ability to put the puck in the net is exactly what is needed on Duchene's line. Once these two get on a roll together, they won't be broken up. I think we will be watching them on a line together for many years. That being said I think the lines will end up similar to:

Landeskog - Duchene - Parenteau
McGinn - Stastny - Jones
Hejduk - O'Reilly - Downie
Totally agree with this assessment but I don't really ever remember Hejduk being on the left side. I also don't really have that much faith in Hejduk playing top 9 minutes all season long.

Call me crazy but I think Heard makes the team out of camp as the third line LW, hes physical, defensive minded, good at face-offs, and has some offensive ability. I think with his work ethic if he brings those things to the table he will stick. I would love to see Hishon but I just don't think after a year off that he will be ready. Sgarbossa needs to get stronger as well.

If a rookie is going to make the team, O'Reilly is the best center he could play along side as well. Especially if it's a guy like Heard with his defensive skill set being what he is known for. (Although I think his offensive game and shot are severely underrated.)

So...

Landeskog - Duchene - Parenteau

McGinn - Stastny - Jones

Heard - O'Reilly - Downie

McLeoad - Mitchell - Hejduk

(Hejduk will get offensive starts and power-play time with the top three centers but his over all minutes will be limited.)

Kobasew

Less crazy prediction...

Landeskog - Duchene - Parenteau

McGinn - Stastny - Jones

Olver - O'Reilly - Downie

McLeod - Mitchell - Hejduk

Hejduk did play well with McLeod & Jay, so there is no reason he wouldn't do fine on the fourth line.


Super crazy trade prediction...

McGinn - Stastny - Ryan

Landeskog - Duchene - Parenteau

Jones - Heard/Olver - Downie

McLeod - Mitchell - Hejduk

Had to... That top 6 would just be sick especially if Olver could get better at face-offs, He and Jones had some chemistry in limited stints and connected for goals and points a few times. Would be nice if Heard surprised but as a center... It's probably to much to ask. It makes Jones a bit over paid as a third line winger but hey... Ryan & Stastny together would be worth it. Besides he could still compete with McGinn for that LW spot. (Yeah not if McGinn played anything like he did... lol)


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08-13-2012, 02:01 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthesis View Post
Certainly you're not talking about Joe Sacco of the Avalanche right? Because he is known for line juggling on a shift by shift basis, not every ten games...

I think it is inevitable that Lando will end up next to Duchene. I love watching Lando and RoR together, but that won't last forever. RoR is not on Lando's level. Lando is our most talented forward, and his ability to put the puck in the net is exactly what is needed on Duchene's line. Once these two get on a roll together, they won't be broken up. I think we will be watching them on a line together for many years. That being said I think the lines will end up similar to:

Landeskog - Duchene - Parenteau
McGinn - Stastny - Jones
Hejduk - O'Reilly - Downie
Yes, within a game, he'll juggle his lines but the next night, he's right back at it. WINNIK stayed with O'Reilly and Lando for at least 10 MORE games than he should have, despite the early success that they had that Sacco hoped would come back. The same could be said about the Duchene experiment at left wing with Staz. Didn't work AND limited the effectiveness of 2 of our better players for a good 10-15 games.

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08-13-2012, 02:36 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
To me he's a guy who's always trying to do too much with the puck and I really don't see him as a good defensive player.
Avs should bring in Jesse Winchester (RH) to help out the 4th line and round out the 14th forward. Decent on face-offs and a PK specialist too. That would open the door for many possibilities on that 4th line. Probably only cost 600-800k/year.

McLeod - Mitchell - Kobasew or
Olver - Mitchell - Winchester

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08-13-2012, 03:07 PM
  #33
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McGinn - Stastny - Jones
Lando - ROR - Downie
Olver - Duchene - PAP
McLeod - Mitchell - Hejduk

The first two lines, no reason to break up a good thing. Olver is more than willing to bang, work the boards, whatever, and that should free up a little space for Duchene and PAP.

Only issue is Hejduk on the 4th line, playing maybe 10-12 minutes a night. He could be on the Lando-ROR line, but I'd rather have Downie playing 18-20 minutes than the Hejduk we saw last year.

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08-13-2012, 03:17 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IWantSakicAsMyGM View Post
McGinn - Stastny - Jones
Lando - ROR - Downie
Olver - Duchene - PAP
McLeod - Mitchell - Hejduk

The first two lines, no reason to break up a good thing. Olver is more than willing to bang, work the boards, whatever, and that should free up a little space for Duchene and PAP.

Only issue is Hejduk on the 4th line, playing maybe 10-12 minutes a night. He could be on the Lando-ROR line, but I'd rather have Downie playing 18-20 minutes than the Hejduk we saw last year.
You mean he is more than willing to bang and bounce off of everything? Olver is closer to a fourth line winger/center than he is to a top 6 winger, lets just say that. He does not belong anywhere near Duchene under normal circumstances. That lineup is the classic... "My memory only goes back to when Duchene was playing hurt" lineup. Duchene is not third on the center depth chart and shouldn't end up on a third line with less talent just because everyone is in love with Landeskog & O'Reilly together. If Landeskog plays like he did in the second half he will leave O'Reilly behind just like he did in the second half of last season.

Landeskog needs to play with Duchene or Stastny... Otherwise hes pretty much being held back offensively.

Normally you can't say this about a 19 year old but... If Duchene puts at least some effort into back-checking, Landeskog can carry that line defensively and PAP isn't horrible. O'Reilly can actually carry a defensive line with checking forwards. People forget.. If we are up 2-1 it's not difficult for the coach to throw O'Reilly & Landeskog out there together at times like that.

Putting Duchene on a line where he is the only real offensive weapon and expecting him to hit his offensive potential is just not that smart. People are a little to stuck on this "Duchene is a goal scoring center and nothing else" thing. When he was drafted one of the things he was good at was being played in different situations like on the point on the power-play or on PK. Which he did and did well in his first and second seasons. Those things were also one of the reasons he was touted as being the most NHL ready forward in the draft that year and ultimately helped in him leading his draft class for the first two-years.

Because he got frustrated and selfish for part of a season does not mean those skills up and walked away... He isn't as one dimensional as people are making him out to be, yes he needs to put more effort into his game away from the puck though and he knows it.

Young players get frustrated and have some hick-ups... For what he has done as a whole he deserves us having a bit longer memories when it comes to what he can actually bring to the table. Sacco tossing him around the lineup like a rag doll and our lack of depth at wing are pretty easy to factor into a 21 year old getting frustrated as well.


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08-13-2012, 03:49 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
You mean he is more than willing to bang and bounce off of everything? Olver is closer to a fourth line winger/center than he is to a top 6 winger, lets just say that. He does not belong anywhere near Duchene under normal circumstances.
In simple terms, this is wrong.

Olver played fantastic for us last year, and as was said by the poster you quoted is very good in the corners at hitting everything and freeing up space. Would be a very good fit for Duchene and PAP.

Olver is more of a Top 6 guy then a 4th liner. He's better then your typical 4th liner. And Hejduk doesnt deserve to be in the Top 9 if he continues on like he did last year.

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08-13-2012, 03:57 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
In simple terms, this is wrong.

Olver played fantastic for us last year, and as was said by the poster you quoted is very good in the corners at hitting everything and freeing up space. Would be a very good fit for Duchene and PAP.

Olver is more of a Top 6 guy then a 4th liner. He's better then your typical 4th liner. And Hejduk doesnt deserve to be in the Top 9 if he continues on like he did last year.
Mark Olver :

NHL Totals GP 42 G 6 A 10 P 16 -2 PIM 33

Uhuh... Basically what I meant is that he is a above average energy player, a third line winger or a fourth line center. He could be a third line center if he could get better at face-offs. His size and the fact that he has to commit so much energy into being an energy player hurts his offense when it comes to translating it to the NHL level.

Do you actually have anything to backup saying he should be in a top 6 type winger role? Because I have a hard time finding it and Ive watched every game he has played in for us.

You also completely ignore the point that I made about Duchene not being the only offensive weapon on a line as well. And in any of my predictions have I ever put Hejduk anywhere else besides as the 4th line RW? We simply do not have the winger depth yet to run three true scoring lines and attempting to do that regardless is going to result in exactly what happened at the beginning of last season.

O'Reilly needs to be the third line center and Duchene needs to be the second line center, at least to start the season. With Stastny needing to be the experienced #1 center.


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08-13-2012, 04:16 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
You mean he is more than willing to bang and bounce off of everything? Olver is closer to a fourth line winger/center than he is to a top 6 winger, lets just say that. He does not belong anywhere near Duchene under normal circumstances. That lineup is the classic... "My memory only goes back to when Duchene was playing hurt" lineup. Duchene is not third on the center depth chart and shouldn't end up on a third line with less talent just because everyone is in love with Landeskog & O'Reilly together. If Landeskog plays like he did in the second half he will leave O'Reilly behind just like he did in the second half of last season.

Landeskog needs to play with Duchene or Stastny... Otherwise hes pretty much being held back offensively.

Normally you can't say this about a 19 year old but... If Duchene puts at least some effort into back-checking, Landeskog can carry that line defensively and PAP isn't horrible. O'Reilly can actually carry a defensive line with checking forwards. People forget.. If we are up 2-1 it's not difficult for the coach to throw O'Reilly & Landeskog out there together at times like that.

Putting Duchene on a line where he is the only real offensive weapon and expecting him to hit his offensive potential is just not that smart. People are a little to stuck on this "Duchene is a goal scoring center and nothing else" thing. When he was drafted one of the things he was good at was being played in different situations like on the point on the power-play or on PK. Which he did and did well in his first and second seasons. Those things were also one of the reasons he was touted as being the most NHL ready forward in the draft that year and ultimately helped in him leading his draft class for the first two-years.

Because he got frustrated and selfish for part of a season does not mean those skills up and walked away... He isn't as one dimensional as people are making him out to be, yes he needs to put more effort into his game away from the puck though and he knows it.

Young players get frustrated and have some hick-ups... For what he has done as a whole he deserves us having a bit longer memories when it comes to what he can actually bring to the table. Sacco tossing him around the lineup like a rag doll and our lack of depth at wing are pretty easy to factor into a 21 year old getting frustrated as well.
Except Duchene played bad even before he got injured.

Duchene was good defensively when he entered the NHL, but with each passing year his defensive game got worse and worse instead of the other way around.

There's also no 1st, 2nd or 3rd line on the Avs. There are three 2nd lines and every one of them has its strenghts and weaknesses and they'll be used according to them.

Some people don't want to break up Landeskog and O'Reilly because those two together give us a great shut-down line which is still capable of putting up points and every team in the NHL dreams about having a line like that.

Also checking wingers are wingers which play a checking role on the team, they're the guys who are counted upon to go out against opposing top lines, be reliable defensively and keep those opposing lines in ''check''. Winnik was a checking winger, Downie, McGinn and Olver aren't, they're players who go out of their way to hit people, assert a physical presence on the ice and agitate, defensive play isn't their strenght.

O'Reilly alone won't be able to shut down opposing top lines and cover up for their defensive short-comings.

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08-13-2012, 04:33 PM
  #38
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Quote:
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Except Duchene played bad even before he got injured.

Duchene was good defensively when he entered the NHL, but with each passing year his defensive game got worse and worse instead of the other way around.

There's also no 1st, 2nd or 3rd line on the Avs. There are three 2nd lines and every one of them has its strenghts and weaknesses and they'll be used according to them.

Some people don't want to break up Landeskog and O'Reilly because those two together give us a great shut-down line which is still capable of putting up points and every team in the NHL dreams about having a line like that.

Also checking wingers are wingers which play a checking role on the team, they're the guys who are counted upon to go out against opposing top lines, be reliable defensively and keep those opposing lines in ''check''. Winnik was a checking winger, Downie, McGinn and Olver aren't, they're players who go out of their way to hit people, assert a physical presence on the ice and agitate, defensive play isn't their strenght.

O'Reilly alone won't be able to shut down opposing top lines and cover up for their defensive short-comings.
I was pretty careful not to only sight his injury as a reason for the lack of his defensive play. And I don't believe we even have the depth to run three second lines yet. Olver is NOT a second line winger either. Hejduk if he does not rebound isn't even a second or third line winger.

Trying to truly run three second lines or scoring lines is as much of a mistake right now as it was to start last season.

It should look like this :

Top 6 winger - Duchene - Parenteau

McGinn - Stastny - Jones

Landeskog - O'Reilly - Downie

Based on what we know and who has chemistry with who... But we don't have that top 6 winger that we are missing and we don't have him in the pipe either. Unless Hishon is some kind of medical phenom and hits the NHL running after losing a year and also is able to convert from center to wing flawlessly. So O'Reilly is the closest and best thing we have to a third line center and should be used as such. Because ultimately Duchene's offensive potential is more important than trying to force something we don't have the depth to do yet. Or may never have the depth to do realistically...

So far from what Olver has shown... He does not belong in that group. I don't think Jones belongs in that group either but at least while he is with Stasny hes able to put up 20 plus goals, not much else but he does do that.

One of the reasons I am hoping Heard impresses is because of the fact that he brings the skill set needed to form a shutdown type line with O'Reilly & Downie. The only reason I give him an outside shot is because of that and his work ethic, and I do realize how unlikely it actually is that he makes it.

So like my earlier prediction, I hope it looks something like this...

Landeskog - Duchene - Parenteau

McGinn - Stastny - Jones

Heard - O'Reilly - Downie

McLeod - Mitchell - Hejduk

Hope... Also Olver's ability and tenacity on the forecheck makes him just fine as a third line winger, that's part of a checking lines role. To pin the oposition in their end as long as possible. Unfortunately they really can't do much more than that.

Duchene & Landeskog scoring at a PPG pace is also more important than O'Reilly & Landeskog being a AWSOME 2nd/3rd line shutdown pair as well. Especially if that only means them scoring 55 points... If those two could do that and put up 70 or 80 points then I will eat crow but I don't think O'Reilly is capable of that. Hence the Landeskog will leave him behind comment.

People are in love with O'Reilly for many reasons but he is not exactly anywhere near Stastny when it comes to being a play-maker and I do not really believe hes better than Duchene in that area either. (Yes he was better last season, but he had Landeskog and Duchene had a ghost to play with.) The 2010-11 season Duchene put up 40 assists playing with even halfway competent wingers.


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08-13-2012, 05:52 PM
  #39
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I feel the biggest issue this year will be around the PK and icing enough Penalty killing forwards to have 2 pairs up front when were in the box..................... That said

Lande Dutch PAP
Jones Stats Duke
Ginn ROR Downie (id like this line alot)
Olver Mitch Kobe

D

EJ SOB(PLEASE FIX THIS SHERMAN)
Hejda ROB
Wilson Zanon

(Hun Barrie Elliott Gaunce.....)


PP1

EJ Dutch
Lande Stats Duke

PP2

PAP SOB
Jones ROR Downie


PK1
Kobe ROR
Hedja ROB

PK2
Mitch Stats
EJ Wilson



Flame away

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08-14-2012, 03:48 PM
  #40
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I would like to see this as an experiment in preseason,

Jones - Stastny - Hejduk
Landeskog - O'Reilly - Downie
McGinn - Duchene - Parenteau

Zanon - Johnson
O'Byrne - Hejda
Wilson - Hunwick

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08-14-2012, 04:15 PM
  #41
CobraAcesS
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
I would like to see this as an experiment in preseason,

Jones - Stastny - Hejduk
Landeskog - O'Reilly - Downie
McGinn - Duchene - Parenteau

Zanon - Johnson
O'Byrne - Hejda
Wilson - Hunwick
If Hejduk can rebound I would agree with you here, McGinn & Duchene together bring kind of an interesting dynamic. McGinn would do a lot of what Landeskog could do for that line but brings something else as well, and that is speed. McGinn is probably the closest forward on the roster when it comes to pure skating speed, to Duchene.

I wouldn't mind seeing that tried as well, when it comes to McGinn he needs to be given a real chance playing next to either Stastny or Duchene for an entire season to see if he can duplicate the scoring touch he brought after the trade. He really looked to fit well into a top 6 power forward role.

I'm skeptical when it comes to that line being effective again with Hejduk though.


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08-14-2012, 04:28 PM
  #42
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Here will be the lines:-

Mcginn - Stastny - Jones
Landeskog - O'Reilly - Downie
Hejduk - Duchene - Parenteau
Mcleod - Mitchell - Kobasew

Zanon - Johnson
Wilson - O'Brien
O'Byrne - Hejda

Varlamov
Giguere

Good for 16th - 29th placed finish in the NHL.

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08-14-2012, 04:30 PM
  #43
Hans Landaskog
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I'd rather switch McGinn and Landeskog to give us some offensive balance that can sustain pressure and equal back checking ability. I think McGinn - Duchene - PAP would still be vulnerable defensively.

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08-14-2012, 04:35 PM
  #44
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Cobraacess, I came up with those lines after watching the stastny, forsberg, and Hejduk lined performed seasons ago. Stastny actually looked like a very solid consistent player with those line mates. I do agree if Hejduk can produce and be at least a noticeable offensively. If not then put mcginn back on that line.

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08-14-2012, 04:43 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
Cobraacess, I came up with those lines after watching the stastny, forsberg, and Hejduk lined performed seasons ago. Stastny actually looked like a very solid consistent player with those line mates. I do agree if Hejduk can produce and be at least a noticeable offensively. If not then put mcginn back on that line.
I remember, there was a time when that line was together and effective. I think that was a line sometime before Hejduk got switched to Duchene's wing.

I'm just saying Hejduk obviously does not seem to be what he was two seasons ago. So I am skeptical...

But... Hejduk & Stastny have always had chemistry so who knows, maybe it would spark him. I'm sure hes working his ass off this off-season in order to rebound. He obviously wasn't to happy about it at the end of the season, and eluded to it not being due to age or slowing down. Saying "I feel fine, I feel like I can play" so who knows...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Landaskog View Post
I'd rather switch McGinn and Landeskog to give us some offensive balance that can sustain pressure and equal back checking ability. I think McGinn - Duchene - PAP would still be vulnerable defensively.

McGinn isn't bad defensively either, he was used in a defensive role for SJ for a long time and was considered to be the one who carried SJ's third line at times. I think he can be used in a lot more situations than people are assuming, we only seen him for a short time. I personally wouldn't be to worried about that lines defensive abilities because McGinn and Parenteau are pretty hard on the fore-check. From what Ive seen NYI fans post about Parenteau, hes gotten better defensively and in general when it comes to puck possession over last season as well.

Give them Hejda - O'Byrne as a pairing and I am sure they would be fine.


Last edited by CobraAcesS: 08-14-2012 at 04:50 PM.
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08-14-2012, 11:51 PM
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McGinn-Stastny-Jones
Downie-Duchene-Parenteau
Landeskog-O'Reilly-Hejduk
McLeod-Mitchell-Kobasew

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08-15-2012, 04:57 PM
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McGinn-Stastny-Jones
Landeskog-Duchene-Hejduk
Downie-O'Reilly-Parenteau
McLeod-Mitchell-Kobasew/Bordeleau

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08-15-2012, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ninetynine View Post
McGinn-Stastny-Jones
Landeskog-Duchene-Hejduk
Downie-O'Reilly-Parenteau
McLeod-Mitchell-Kobasew/Bordeleau
We have a new guy that has more talent and better overall than Bordeleau, and can also fight. Have you heard of Heard?

Mcleod - Mitchell - Heard looks good to me.

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08-15-2012, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
We have a new guy that has more talent and better overall than Bordeleau, and can also fight. Have you heard of Heard?

Mcleod - Mitchell - Heard looks good to me.
Needs seasoning. Bordeleau for the Avalanche.

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08-15-2012, 05:21 PM
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CobraAcesS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
We have a new guy that has more talent and better overall than Bordeleau, and can also fight. Have you heard of Heard?

Mcleod - Mitchell - Heard looks good to me.
Here is the thing... If Heard makes the team, who is really going to be more valuable in the top 9? Heard or Hejduk? If it's Hejduk from last year... I take the gungho rookie who thinks the game defense first and brings a physical game any day of the week. Especially playing next to probably the best possible mentor he could have in the area and a fellow second round pick who made the team his draft year.

Heard also can play LW not RW and there is a LW spot on the third line available if all of our RWs stay RWs... The only one who has proven he can play either side is Jones, and if hes on Stastny's line he will be playing RW.

So if Heard makes it out of camp doing what he does best we actually get a defensive line with three players who play flat out for every second of their shift in Heard - O'Reilly - Downie.

I just think if he makes it... Hes going to be worth more there than playing 7 minutes a night on the fourth line. I personally hope that if he isn't ready for a third line role, he goes to LE... I think the kid has more talent than a future on the fourth line and there isn't a better player for him to learn from than O'Reilly.

I also think hes going to bring more offensive ability than people give him credit for. When you watch him, hes smart pretty much everywhere on the ice and as Ive said... He can elevate the puck in close really well which is exactly what you need to be able to do to score in the NHL.

As it stands right now, we have four RWs and three LWs on the roster. With Hishon missing a year and Sgarbossa weighing in at like 175lbs and Heard having played LW... I think it will be between Olver and Heard for that LW spot.

Heard just brings everything we need in a defensive forward, "IF" he can translate it to the NHL. I'm rooting for the kid, I think hes going to be a fan favorite soon.

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