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The MLD 2012 Assassination Thread

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Old
08-20-2012, 06:56 PM
  #226
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Barry Pederson is more than a playmaker. Consecutive seasons of 44/46/39 goals before health issues show that he could score as well.
Those 3 years also match up with Rick Middleton's 1st, 3rd, and 4th best offensive seasons.

Quote:
Jordan Staal. Never had long term linemates the quality of Corson and Russ Courtnall. No speed on the RW or toughness.
The ATD/MLD doesn't deal in ifs and hypotheticals. Here's a fact for you: Jordan Staal has a career high of 50 points.

Quote:
Mike Ridley centers Grant and Larose who formed a first line in Minnesota centered by Danny O'Shea. Ridley is a major upgrade.
He's also a major upgrade on Jordan Staal.

Quote:
Defensemen. Not counting Charles Tobin who played D/F the 7 defensemen total 5791 regular and 587 playoff NHL games.Sweeney, Cote, Marsh and Murray all topped 1000 regular season games. Regardless how you spin it they could/can play.
Luke Richardson, Sean O'Donnell, Marc Bergevin, Stephane Quintal, Curtis Leschyshyn, Harold Snepsts, and Patrice Brisebois have a combined 7,944 regular season games, and 566 combined playoff games. They're clearly a superior unit, right? Yeah, they lasted in the NHL plenty. So did the vast majority of the guys in the MLD. We're not at the point where we're picking guys because they played a long time. There are still a plethora of defensemen who are available that were heavily relied upon by their teams for an extended period of time.
Quote:
Goalies. Bolded countered by the fact that such a goalie was not available. So then you are left with choosing between my pair + Eddie Johnston or the likes of Vokoun, Ward, Halak, Anderson.
I'd take Vokoun over your 3 goalies and all the guys listed. You thought they were the best option at the time, that's fine. That's what happens when you wait until the 16th and 17th rounds to select your goalies.

Quote:
PP/PK units appear clearly in the team roster you quote so .....
My fault, don't know how I missed that.

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Old
08-20-2012, 06:57 PM
  #227
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Capital Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Regina Capitals



Moose Watson - Anze Kopitar - Johnny Gagnon
Miroslav Satan - Scott Gomez - Scott Mellanby (A)
Murph Chamberlain - Patrik Sundstrom - Bob MacMillan
Baldy Cotton - Art Jackson - Jim Peplinski (A)

Bryan McCabe - Paul Shmyr (C)
Gord Fraser - Drew Doughty
Barry Gibbs - Brent Seabrook

Tom Paton
Vladimir Myshkin

Coach: Emile Francis

Spares: Marty McSorley (D/W) - Walter Smaill (D/F) - Bob Murdoch (D) - Ron Duguay (RW/C)

PP1: Watson - Kopitar - Gagnon - McCabe - Doughty
PP2: Satan - Gomez - MacMillan - Sundstrom - Fraser
PK1: Sundstrom - Chamberlain - Gibbs - Seabrook
PK2: MacMillan - Cotton - Shmyr - McCabe

1916 or earlier: Watson, Paton, Smaill
1917-1942 Gagnon, Chamberlain, Cotton, Fraser, Jackson
1943-1965 Francis
1966-1979, MacMillan, Shmyr, Gibbs, Myshkin, Murdoch, Duguay
1980-1994, Mellanby, Sundstrom, Peplinski, McSorley
1995-2004, Satan, Gomez, McCabe
in 2012: Kopitar, Doughty, Seabrook, Gomez
Interesting line-up but a few questions linger.

Offense.
RWs are mismatched with their linemates. Gagnon played best with speedster Joliat and Morenz in the trailer, defensive winger role.MacMillan had success with Guy Chouinard a RHS at center, Mellanby was adaptable.

Centers. Scott Gomez is the question mark.Ron Duguay is the only RHS amongst your centers and he is a sub.Rest work very well.

LWs. Nice group. Watson played his best with an aggressive center Hooley Smith. Your centers do not have this characteristic. So you will have to find a solution at RW.

Defense.

Solid group but not sold on the pairings. McCabe's performance is subject to his partner's skills. Shmyr matches better with Doughty. Seabrook with McCabe and a three man rotation for the third pairing.

Specialty Teams. PP comments above apply.PK is interesting but will be played.

Goalies.

Tom Paton. Early goaltending star but how complete is his game?

Vladimir Myshkin. Ran hot and cold. .883 SV% on a WHA tour.

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Old
08-20-2012, 07:34 PM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Well, first of all, with the information posted about how Canada selected it's representative teams for the World Championships, I'm not nearly as high on Zabrodsky as I was when we picked him. Even when we picked him, he was kind of mystery, which is why he's always been a sppare. Futhermore, when we making our pitch for Zabodsky as a 2nd liner, the biggest point of comparison was Sven Tumba, somebody with who there is a comparable level of competition. I'm not sure what you think we were claiming about him, but it certainly wasn't aywhere near the level of "best goalie".
appreciate the honesty.

Quote:
With Billy Nicholson, we have some contemporary quotes, even though only a few are actually meaningful, and a 2nd team all-star selection in 1908. That's not very much, but at least it's something.
For Nicholson the anecdotal case relies on a lot of in-game quotes which is unfortunate. I wish there was better. However, those quotes do certainly indicate he may have been the "savior" for weaker teams that hung him out to dry frequently. they are better in-game quotes than you'd typically find for a forward, for example.

For the record I have never believed or said that Nicholson was definitely as good as the Lesueur/Moran/Hern class, but looking at their overall resumes the question of why the HHOF cutoff is after them, but before him, isn't an easy question to answer. This is no different from any other generation of players though. (Is Brian Propp really any worse than Joe Mullen? Is Carl Brewer any worse than Leo Boivin? Is Dean Prentice any worse than Dick Duff? Is Odie Cleghorn any worse than Harry Hyland? etc...) Certainly quotes that indicate someone like Moran as being very highly regarded in his time goes a long way towards answering that question. (On the other hand, I've owned Hern, and it's not like the net was chock full of those types of quotes for him)

With all that said, There's no real reason to believe Nicholson wasn't a good or even great pick where he was. Moran was a great pick, as I'm sure you agree. So if Nicholson was the next-best goalie of that generation - and I don't see anyone else who could possibly hold that title, nor is the case for those other three goalies being better than him 100% open-and-shut - then 100-200 or so picks after Moran is probably where he belongs, and Moran does likely belong higher.

So with a very strong backup, I have no problem saying that Nicholson is part of one of the best goaltenting tandems here.

Quote:
With Tom Paton, there has yet to be anything found to show how good he was. I was actually glad when 70s picked him - I thought he'd finally get the profile he deserved, but that didn't happen. Paton has now been "owned" by multiple GMs who are known for their ability to dig up information, and there is still nothing substantial to support his greatness.
You are absolutely right, of course. EB, Iain and myself have had Paton and there are no great newspaper quotes out there.

But what does your gut tell you? If an on-paper, team-based resume is all we have, our gut instinct from years of evaluating many other players from many other generations has to come into play. Mine tells me it's difficult to imagine a scenario in which he wasn't the very best goalie of his time, and not that much easier to imagine that it wasn't by a wide margin. Your gut has 90% of the nerve endings in your body - look it up - and you might say "I did look it up, and that's not true" - but, you didn't look it up in your gut.

Seriously though... Look at it this way: If his "on paper" resume reflected his "true" worth and we thought his era was even as good as, say, Benedict's era, Paton would be a top-10 goalie. Unfortunately, all we have is a paper resume with little quotes, and we also have big question marks regarding his era. With all that said, after accounting for uncertainty, have we not already appropriately downgraded him by making him wait to be approximately the 70th goalie selected?

(I should also add that last draft Iain Fyffe did a really good job addressing some of the concerns about this era. They will never go away, but it does answer some questions.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Seems like the Jack Church example, Kampman's teammate with the Leafs zipped right by you.

Church:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...churcja01.html

Missed two seasons of hockey but played in the post WWII NHL.

So your defence of Bingo now rests on a fantasy 15 career. Give it up. Admit his short comings.
Jack Church was not a regular as of 1941 and he was out of the NHL at age 30 after a very substandard 1946 season, so I have no idea why you would think he adds to your argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Now Joe Pelletier tries to put players in a positive light. I am more than happy to just make a comment that nudges things towards a perspective that is more realistic, but no, you have to press the point, just like seventies so here we go:

http://mapleleafslegends.blogspot.ca...o-kampman.html

Note how Joe Pelletier describes Bingo Kampman's skating.
"not as talented as Ed Jovanovski in the skating department" is all you have?

What a horrible skater he must have been, to be known for going on rick-long rushes, hey? (and yes I am aware that the list of players known for going end to end wasn't exactly as exclusive back then as it is now)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
If hockey started in Uganda today they wouldn't be any good because there is no culture of ice sports.

When hockey started in Russia they were at the same place as when hockey started in Canada. There is the difference. Same with Sweden, Czechoslovakia and Finland.
Yes, but in all cases they were nowhere near the point Canada was at when they started their hockey programs. Just as Uganda would be if they got serious about hockey right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Dan Bain and especially Tommy Phillips are too late. Bob MacDougall and Dolly Swift are guys who played when Canadian hockey was probably in a similar stage of development as European hockey of the Bobrov era.

Maybe those two are still too late; I don't know. I mentioned Allan Cameron and Tom Paton as the best of the early 1890s.

But you'll never convince me that the best players in Europe during the Bobrov era were worse than those who played in the 1883 Winter Carnival
They might not have been. They probably weren't at all, actually. But that was the standard for the world at that time. In the 1940s, the standard was the NHL.

We pretty much have to go one way or the other in this "judging the relative dominance of over 1000 players from various eras and countries at different stages of development" thing - one way is to look at who was the best in the world at any given time, and use that as the standard for that time, the other is to judge each country's best players relative to the development of their country's hockey program. There is some merit in the latter as a fun exercise, but practically it would be a nightmare. (Zabrodsky was one of the top-10 most dominant players of all-time if you consider his achievements in 1940s Czechoslovakia and Worlds on par with the modern NHL and Olympics, to use an extreme example). Basically, we've chosen our path for good reason, and it is what it is.

Quote:
This is definitely important, but to me, determining the quality of a player's competition is also important
Right, it absolutely is. We need to judge their dominance and also what the quality of the competition was in relation to the very best competition available at the time. In the case of 1890s players, they were playing the very best competition that they could.

Now of course, no one takes the approach of "the best in 2012 is the best in 1980 is the best in 1940 is the best in 1910 is the best in 1883" and the fact that we are discussing these players now and not 1000 picks ago shows that there is a seriously steep curve applied to the era these players played in, just like there is to players of the NHA/PCHA era and the Tommy Phillips era before it, and I think that it logically follows the progression that is begun in the 1900-1930 range in terms of how skeptical we should be of its quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
- Alex Smith will now be on the bottom pairing with Gary Sargent, instead of Christian Ehrhoff. This will hopefully put an end to C1958 calling the Castors' defensive corps "slow" even if several reputable sources say otherwise..
Obviously you don't want your defense corps to be too deficient in any one attribute, but I wouldn't worry about this whole speed thing too much. Your D-corps will ultimately sink or swim based on the overall results they achieved individually (their own skating ability was just one of many attributes that contributed to those overall results) as well as how well they are perceived to work together as a unit.

Not that I don't agree with the lineup change.

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Old
08-20-2012, 07:35 PM
  #229
Canadiens1958
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Sure...............

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Those 3 years also match up with Rick Middleton's 1st, 3rd, and 4th best offensive seasons.


The ATD/MLD doesn't deal in ifs and hypotheticals. Here's a fact for you: Jordan Staal has a career high of 50 points.


He's also a major upgrade on Jordan Staal.



Luke Richardson, Sean O'Donnell, Marc Bergevin, Stephane Quintal, Curtis Leschyshyn, Harold Snepsts, and Patrice Brisebois have a combined 7,944 regular season games, and 566 combined playoff games. They're clearly a superior unit, right? Yeah, they lasted in the NHL plenty. So did the vast majority of the guys in the MLD. We're not at the point where we're picking guys because they played a long time. There are still a plethora of defensemen who are available that were heavily relied upon by their teams for an extended period of time.


I'd take Vokoun over your 3 goalies and all the guys listed. You thought they were the best option at the time, that's fine. That's what happens when you wait until the 16th and 17th rounds to select your goalies.



My fault, don't know how I missed that.
And what happened to Middleton once Pederson had health issues. Also the issue was Pederson's ability to score goals, which he demonstrated.

Jordan Staal 50 points in only 62 games during 5.47 GPG season. Ridley 89 points in 80 games, during a 7.48 GPG season. Make the adjustments and you have a wash.

Defensemen. Try comparing the regular season to playoff game ratio and add the SCs, honours, awards and mentions from my group and it is vastly superior to your analogy or anything on the other teams.

Tomas Vokoun. Not surprised that you would pick him. Weak playoff record 3W/8L:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...vokouto01.html

Benched in this years playoffs in favour of Braden Holtby, a rookie, who played a total of 21 NHL games over two seasons, before the playoffs. Furthermore both Nashville and Florida became better teams after Vokoun left and Washington did not want him back after this season.

16th/17th round sounds like drafters remorse on your part.

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Old
08-20-2012, 07:52 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Pre forward pass - why would you expect to find quotes about back checking?
They are less frequent, but they are out there. In any case, backchecking and defensive play, like anything, should be understood as being relative to era. It is possible that Billy Gilmour didn't backcheck as well as most current NHL forwards do today, but compared to the norm of his time he was well above average in this regard. It is the latter point that matters in this exercise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Jordan Staal. Never had long term linemates the quality of Corson and Russ Courtnall. No speed on the RW or toughness.
That is true, but we must look also look at this relatively since the same statement can be made about almost any MLD forward.

Staal has played with a collection of players who would best be described as third line caliber, or low-tier 2nd line caliber, or 2nd line complementary-type players. No naming names, I'm sure you can think of six names that fit those bills. Not much has changed though. Courtnall is a lower-caliber 2nd liner and Corson is probably best as a 3rd liner but would also be just fine as a 2nd line complementary player. So even if we convert this into relative terms, I don't think Staal has any more help offensively than he usually does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Interesting line-up but a few questions linger.

Offense.
RWs are mismatched with their linemates. Gagnon played best with speedster Joliat and Morenz in the trailer, defensive winger role.MacMillan had success with Guy Chouinard a RHS at center, Mellanby was adaptable.

Centers. Scott Gomez is the question mark.Ron Duguay is the only RHS amongst your centers and he is a sub.Rest work very well.
I'm not too concerned with the handedness of centers, to be honest. I expect any good/great player to adapt accordingly and I give that same leeway to any other team too.

Quote:
LWs. Nice group. Watson played his best with an aggressive center Hooley Smith. Your centers do not have this characteristic. So you will have to find a solution at RW.
You're correct that he doesn't have a Hooley Smith next to him. I don't mind that; no one else does, either. In the case of this line there is no designated tough guy. Watson appeared to be large for his era and didn't earn the Moose nickname for no reason. Kopitar is huge and assertive if not aggressive. Gagnon was willing to take the punishment but of course will intimidate no one. No doubt this 1st line probably has less "jam" than most 1st lines, but it has "enough".

Quote:
Defense.

Solid group but not sold on the pairings. McCabe's performance is subject to his partner's skills. Shmyr matches better with Doughty. Seabrook with McCabe and a three man rotation for the third pairing.
I hadn't posted a lineup in this thread yet because I am still considering possibilities like the ones above.

Quote:
Tom Paton. Early goaltending star but how complete is his game?
It's obviously impossible to comment on that. More important was "how good was he?". I have made my best shot at speculating at where the (very likely) best goalie of a very early era belongs in the grand scheme of things. Your mileage may vary.

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Old
08-20-2012, 07:53 PM
  #231
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Complete Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
.

Jack Church was not a regular as of 1941 and he was out of the NHL at age 30 after a very substandard 1946 season, so I have no idea why you would think he adds to your argument.



"not as talented as Ed Jovanovski in the skating department" is all you have?

What a horrible skater he must have been, to be known for going on rick-long rushes, hey? (and yes I am aware that the list of players known for going end to end wasn't exactly as exclusive back then as it is now)
Selectively truncating the full quote which is below:

Kampman was a bit like a modern day Ed Jovanovski, although Kampman was not nearly as gifted in the skating department. Still, he liked to rush the puck out of his zone, rumbling through each zone in burly although sometimes aimless fashion. He didn't score all that often, as his 14 tallies in 189 career games suggests, but his rushes were described as exciting and memorable.

__________________________________________________ ______

How good a skater is Ed Jovanovski? Average plus. Bolded describes a runaway hippo not an average skater.Memorable is not a synonym for talented, elite etc. Eddie "the Eagle" Edwards was memorable as a ski jumper but far from talented or even average.

Comparison to Jack Church was about net results

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Old
08-20-2012, 08:03 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
And what happened to Middleton once Pederson had health issues. Also the issue was Pederson's ability to score goals, which he demonstrated.
He had two near PPG seasons, then took a puck to the head in 1986, giving him a bad concussion that he never recovered from.

Quote:
Jordan Staal 50 points in only 62 games during 5.47 GPG season. Ridley 89 points in 80 games, during a 7.48 GPG season. Make the adjustments and you have a wash.
Mike Ridley's career adjusted PPG is .793 over 866 games. Staal's is .608 over 431 games. Which is more impressive?

Quote:
Defensemen. Try comparing the regular season to playoff game ratio and add the SCs, honours, awards and mentions from my group and it is vastly superior to your analogy or anything on the other teams.
The point of that exercise was that just one of those guys has been drafted so far. Your argument was that they played a lot of games, so they were good, and I proved that argument to be wrong. The entire unit has 2 Stanley Cups total. Here are their voting records:

Karlsson:

1st Norris
1st AS
8th Hart

Green:

9th Norris
8th AS

Sweeney:

No relevant finishes

Letang:

9th Norris
9th AS
6th AS
6th Norris

Marsh:

No relevant finishes

Cote:

12th AS

Basically all the impressive finishes come from the guys who have very little in terms of an established track record. For example, let's take a look at the team you just assassinated, the Regina Capitals.

McCabe:

4th AS
9th AS
14th AS
4th Norris
4th AS

Shmyr(in WHA):

Named Best Defenseman
3x 1st Team All Star
1x 2nd Team All Star

Fraser:

1x PCHA 1st Team All Star
1x PCHA 2nd Team All Star
1x WHL 2nd Team All Star

Doughty:

12th AS
3rd AS
3rd Norris

Gibbs:

11th AS
13th AS

Seabrook:

10th AS
13th Norris

Quote:
Tomas Vokoun. Not surprised that you would pick him. Weak playoff record 3W/8L:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...vokouto01.html

Benched in this years playoffs in favour of Braden Holtby, a rookie, who played a total of 21 NHL games over two seasons, before the playoffs. Furthermore both Nashville and Florida became better teams after Vokoun left and Washington did not want him back after this season.

16th/17th round sounds like drafters remorse on your part.
Vokoun was 35 and clearly on the downswing of his career. I'll stand by my statement(and I think others would agree) that they would much rather have Tomas Vokoun as their starter than Quick or Price.

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08-20-2012, 08:04 PM
  #233
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Comparables

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
They are less frequent, but they are out there. In any case, backchecking and defensive play, like anything, should be understood as being relative to era. It is possible that Billy Gilmour didn't backcheck as well as most current NHL forwards do today, but compared to the norm of his time he was well above average in this regard. It is the latter point that matters in this exercise.


I'm not too concerned with the handedness of centers, to be honest. I expect any good/great player to adapt accordingly and I give that same leeway to any other team too.


I hadn't posted a lineup in this thread yet because I am still considering possibilities like the ones above.
Rules in effect did not require any back checking as we know it during Gilmour's era. If anything rushing back after being caught deep was the concern for a winger. Eye catching but not a sign of solid hockey.

Handedness matters for faceoffs in the defensive zone.

Understand why you are considering possibilities. So am I.

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08-20-2012, 08:17 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Selectively truncating the full quote which is below:

Kampman was a bit like a modern day Ed Jovanovski, although Kampman was not nearly as gifted in the skating department. Still, he liked to rush the puck out of his zone, rumbling through each zone in burly although sometimes aimless fashion. He didn't score all that often, as his 14 tallies in 189 career games suggests, but his rushes were described as exciting and memorable.

__________________________________________________ ______

How good a skater is Ed Jovanovski? Average plus. Bolded describes a runaway hippo not an average skater.Memorable is not a synonym for talented, elite etc. Eddie "the Eagle" Edwards was memorable as a ski jumper but far from talented or even average.

Comparison to Jack Church was about net results
Yeah, I realize his skating wasn't anything special, but you are making a massive leap when you attribute his absence in the postwar NHL to his skating. There were much more important factors at play. The most important being that only special players could be regular contributors by the 3rd postwar season.

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08-20-2012, 08:52 PM
  #235
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Comparables

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
He had two near PPG seasons, then took a puck to the head in 1986, giving him a bad concussion that he never recovered from.



Mike Ridley's career adjusted PPG is .793 over 866 games. Staal's is .608 over 431 games. Which is more impressive?



The point of that exercise was that just one of those guys has been drafted so far. Your argument was that they played a lot of games, so they were good, and I proved that argument to be wrong. The entire unit has 2 Stanley Cups total. Here are their voting records:

Karlsson:

1st Norris
1st AS
8th Hart

Green:

9th Norris
8th AS

Sweeney:

No relevant finishes

Letang:

9th Norris
9th AS
6th AS
6th Norris

Marsh:

No relevant finishes

Cote:

12th AS

Basically all the impressive finishes come from the guys who have very little in terms of an established track record. For example, let's take a look at the team you just assassinated, the Regina Capitals.

McCabe:

4th AS
9th AS
14th AS
4th Norris
4th AS

Shmyr(in WHA):

Named Best Defenseman
3x 1st Team All Star
1x 2nd Team All Star

Fraser:

1x PCHA 1st Team All Star
1x PCHA 2nd Team All Star
1x WHL 2nd Team All Star

Doughty:

12th AS
3rd AS
3rd Norris

Gibbs:

11th AS
13th AS

Seabrook:

10th AS
13th Norris







Vokoun was 35 and clearly on the downswing of his career. I'll stand by my statement(and I think others would agree) that they would much rather have Tomas Vokoun as their starter than Quick or Price.
Barry Pederson, that was after two tumor operations on his shoulder.

Staal vs Ridley. Issue is how they match with their linemates. The offensive upside defined by the seasons compared are a wash.Ridley is a better match for Grant and Larose while Staal is a better match for Corson and Russ Courtnall. Which is what matters.
2nd or 3rd line is rather arbitrary relative to roles and usage. Comes down to circumstances where Staal's line is the better defensive choice and others where Ridley is the better defensive choice. Likewise for offense.

Point about games played is that it reflects a players ability to play, adapt to team specific roles. Add SC final appearances and my group is very solid in this regard.

As for the Capitals. Looking beyond the inflated presentation of Paul Shmyr whose awards and honours convert to zero top 10 Norris or AST consideration in the seventies. Strong defense but my group has more versatility and upside plus is more in tune with my forwards - RWS very strong defensively to support the youth on the RD.

As for Vokoun you and others are welcome to him.

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08-20-2012, 08:58 PM
  #236
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Arbitrary

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yeah, I realize his skating wasn't anything special, but you are making a massive leap when you attribute his absence in the postwar NHL to his skating. There were much more important factors at play. The most important being that only special players could be regular contributors by the 3rd postwar season.
Your 3rd season is rather arbitrary and overlooks the introduction of the Red Line at the start of the 1943-44 season. The Red Line required the defensemen to support the offensive blueline while being able to retreat (skate backwards) to cover the long outlet pass. Bingo's lack of special skating was the issue in this case.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-20-2012 at 09:05 PM.
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08-20-2012, 09:39 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
For Nicholson the anecdotal case relies on a lot of in-game quotes which is unfortunate. I wish there was better. However, those quotes do certainly indicate he may have been the "savior" for weaker teams that hung him out to dry frequently. they are better in-game quotes than you'd typically find for a forward, for example.

For the record I have never believed or said that Nicholson was definitely as good as the Lesueur/Moran/Hern class, but looking at their overall resumes the question of why the HHOF cutoff is after them, but before him, isn't an easy question to answer. This is no different from any other generation of players though. (Is Brian Propp really any worse than Joe Mullen? Is Carl Brewer any worse than Leo Boivin? Is Dean Prentice any worse than Dick Duff? Is Odie Cleghorn any worse than Harry Hyland? etc...) Certainly quotes that indicate someone like Moran as being very highly regarded in his time goes a long way towards answering that question. (On the other hand, I've owned Hern, and it's not like the net was chock full of those types of quotes for him)

With all that said, There's no real reason to believe Nicholson wasn't a good or even great pick where he was. Moran was a great pick, as I'm sure you agree. So if Nicholson was the next-best goalie of that generation - and I don't see anyone else who could possibly hold that title, nor is the case for those other three goalies being better than him 100% open-and-shut - then 100-200 or so picks after Moran is probably where he belongs, and Moran does likely belong higher.

So with a very strong backup, I have no problem saying that Nicholson is part of one of the best goaltenting tandems here.
I think Nicholsson is definitively NOT as good as Leseuer, Moran or Hern. HHOF aside, those guys were variously called the greatest of their time by various commentators, placed on all-time teams, etc. I've seen less about Hern than Leseuer or Moran, but I haven't really looked. I've never seen anyone consider Nicholsson the greatest of his day, "arguably the greatest" of his day, etc


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08-20-2012, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Your 3rd season is rather arbitrary and overlooks the introduction of the Red Line at the start of the 1943-44 season. The Red Line required the defensemen to support the offensive blueline while being able to retreat (skate backwards) to cover the long outlet pass. Bingo's lack of special skating was the issue in this case.
Second request: what is your source for this?

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08-20-2012, 10:44 PM
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Obviously you don't want your defense corps to be too deficient in any one attribute, but I wouldn't worry about this whole speed thing too much. Your D-corps will ultimately sink or swim based on the overall results they achieved individually (their own skating ability was just one of many attributes that contributed to those overall results) as well as how well they are perceived to work together as a unit.

Not that I don't agree with the lineup change.
I was just being condescending about the hopefully earning C1958's approval on the velocity of my defensive corps. I think, even with boasting a defenseman or two with a reputation of not being a great skater, is still at least an adequate defensive corps when it comes to speed. I was just being sarcastic relating to several claims with absolutely no support to them claiming my corps is slow when other reputable sources say otherwise. I'm not worried about the defense, even if it is slower than other teams units.

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08-20-2012, 10:47 PM
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Second request: what is your source for this?
I think he might be Joe Pelletier...

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08-20-2012, 10:53 PM
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Skating Backwards

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Second request: what is your source for this?
See the link about how the 2005-06 rule changes changed the game, specifically the "Two line pass is legal" segment:

http://proicehockey.about.com/cs/rul...le_changes.htm

The introduction of the Red Line in 1943-44 had the effect.of cutting the neutral zone in half. A defenseman who had solid backward skating skills could protect against a break-out pass with diagonal backward movement. If he had to turn and skate forwards to cover he was done.

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08-20-2012, 11:06 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Barry Pederson, that was after two tumor operations on his shoulder.

Staal vs Ridley. Issue is how they match with their linemates. The offensive upside defined by the seasons compared are a wash.Ridley is a better match for Grant and Larose while Staal is a better match for Corson and Russ Courtnall. Which is what matters.
2nd or 3rd line is rather arbitrary relative to roles and usage. Comes down to circumstances where Staal's line is the better defensive choice and others where Ridley is the better defensive choice. Likewise for offense.

Point about games played is that it reflects a players ability to play, adapt to team specific roles. Add SC final appearances and my group is very solid in this regard.

As for the Capitals. Looking beyond the inflated presentation of Paul Shmyr whose awards and honours convert to zero top 10 Norris or AST consideration in the seventies. Strong defense but my group has more versatility and upside plus is more in tune with my forwards - RWS very strong defensively to support the youth on the RD.

As for Vokoun you and others are welcome to him.
You're entitled to your opinion.

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08-20-2012, 11:20 PM
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958
Paul Shmyr whose awards and honours convert to zero top 10 Norris or AST consideration in the seventies.
And that is a criticism of any sort? He spent seven years of that decade putting together a string of WHA 1st team all-star seasons and eventually a WHA Hall of Fame induction career. http://www.whahof.com/hofmembers.html



Quote:
''Paul was a terrific teammate and, pound for pound, was probably one of the toughest guys to play the game of hockey,... He had a zest for life..."

During road trips, Mr. Shmyr and other teammates would often take a $5 bill, tie it to fishing line, then place it on the floor at an airport. The line was then pulled if someone tried to grab the bill. ''When you were around Paul, there were a lot of laughs,"...
http://articles.boston.com/2004-09-0...cer-defenseman

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08-20-2012, 11:25 PM
  #244
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Overall Solid Team

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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Have at her guys:

Chicago Blaze

Steve Thomas-Billy Taylor (A)-Ray Sheppard
Cory Stillman -Erich Kuhnhackl-Cliff Koroll
Andrew Brunette-Kelly Kisio (A)-Tony Granato
Eric Vail-Alexei Guryshev-Martin Havlat

Dave Semenko and Frank Rankin (Extras)

Jeff Brown-Joe Jerwa(C)
John Van Boxmeer-Bob Turner
Bruce Driver-Billy Coutu

Yuri Fedorov and Dave Lewis (Extras)

Ryan Miller
Gerry Mcneil

Coach: Marc Crawford

Special Teams:

PP 1: Thomas-Taylor-Sheppard-Brown-Jerwa
PP2: Vail-Kuhnhackl-Granato-Van Boxmeer-Driver

PK 1: Granato-Kisio-Jerwa-Driver
PK 2: Brunette-Koroll-Van Boxmeer-Turner

Era Requirements:

pre-1917: Billy Coutu, Frank Rankin
1917-1942: Joe Jerwa, Billy Taylor
1943-1965: Bob Turner, Gerry Mcneil, Alexei Guryshev
1966-1979: Erich Kuhnhackl, Cliff Koroll, John Van Boxmeer, Eric Vail, Dave Semenko, Dave Lewis, Yuri Fedorov
1980-1994: Steve Thomas, Ray Sheppard, Jeff Brown, Kelly Kisio, Tony Granato, Bruce Driver
1995-2004: Ryan Miller, Cory Stillman, Andrew Brunette
active 2012: Martin Havlat

Bios:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=77 (Billy Taylor)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=83 (Jeff Brown)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=135 (Joe Jerwa)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=136 (steve Thomas)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=138 (ryan Miller)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=139 (Erich Kuhnhackl)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=140 (Cliff Koroll)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=142 (john Van Boxmeer)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=146 (Ray Sheppard)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=147 (Cory Stillman)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=148 (Marc Crawford)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=149 (Gerry Mcneil)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=154 (billy Coutu)http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=155 (Bruce Driver)
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=157 (Bob Turner)
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=159 (Andrew Brunette)
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=160 (Kelly Kisio)
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=162 (Tony Granato)
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=163 (Eric Vail)
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=164 (Alexei Guryshev)
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=166 (Martin Havlat)
Overall solid team. Forward lines are well structured. Goaltending has a nice balance between the #1 and #2 with Miller having the ability to carry a team.

Defense and specialty teams could use one adjustment. Bob Turner was at best a 5th defenseman getting the short end of a two man for the 4th spot. His major strength was his ability to play either forward position on the PK. Move Dave Lewis to his pairing, Turner to Coutu's place and swing Turner to PK forward and you will have a more efficient defence, better PK and fewer penalties to kill.

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08-20-2012, 11:29 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Move Dave Lewis to his pairing, Turner to Coutu's place and swing Turner to PK forward and you will have a more efficient defence, better PK and fewer penalties to kill.
which forward does he scratch from the lineup to do this?

You still need to decide on Bob Murray yourself, too.

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08-20-2012, 11:29 PM
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Ahl

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And that is a criticism of any sort? He spent seven years of that decade putting together a string of WHA 1st team all-star seasons and eventually a WHA Hall of Fame induction career. http://www.whahof.com/hofmembers.html





http://articles.boston.com/2004-09-0...cer-defenseman
Many dmen did the same in the AHL during the O6 era, eventually getting inducted into the AHL HHOF. Does not make them O6 Norris
candidates or top 20 NHL defensemen for the era.

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08-20-2012, 11:36 PM
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The WHA was a high paid league which attracted some of the best players in the world to the high $$$$. The AHL of the O6 era were guys who couldn't make the starting line-up of NHL teams. The difference here is significant. You seem to undervalue the WHA a bit too much. It's of course not the NHL level, but it ain't the AHL level either. And in the MLD, Shmyr is not being compared to any Norris trophy finalists.

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08-20-2012, 11:40 PM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
See the link about how the 2005-06 rule changes changed the game, specifically the "Two line pass is legal" segment:

http://proicehockey.about.com/cs/rul...le_changes.htm

The introduction of the Red Line in 1943-44 had the effect.of cutting the neutral zone in half. A defenseman who had solid backward skating skills could protect against a break-out pass with diagonal backward movement. If he had to turn and skate forwards to cover he was done.
So nothing about Kampman in particular?

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08-21-2012, 12:34 AM
  #249
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His Choice

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which forward does he scratch from the lineup to do this?

You still need to decide on Bob Murray yourself, too.
His choice - Turner could play all three forward positions in a pinch.

Alternative would be to scratch Coutu.

Will handle Murray in due time.

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08-21-2012, 01:25 AM
  #250
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Quote:
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Winnipeg Monarchs



Coach: Bobby Kromm
Captain: Billy McGimsie
Assistant Captain:Sergei Babinov, David Backes


Murray Craven-Billy McGimsie-Wally Hergesheimer
Nick Mickoski-Billy Reay-Blaine Stoughton
Bob Gracie-Pete Stemkowski-Dave Christian
Darcy Tucker-Alexei Zhamnov-David Backes
Petr Nedved, Pat Boutette

Joe Cooper-Larry Hillman
Sergei Babinov-Jim McKenny
Robert Picard-Janne Niinimaa
Oleg Tverdovsky, Amby Moran

Don Beaupre
Bill Ranford

PP1: Craven-McGimsie-Hergesheimer
McKenny-Niinimaa

PP2: Mickoski-Zhamnov-Stoughton
Hillman-Cooper

PK1: Craven-Reay
Babinov-Hillman

PK2: Stemkowski-Zhamnov
Cooper-Picard

PK3: Gracie-Backes
Babinov-Picard
1st Line: Craven-McGimsie-Hergesheimer
-You got great value on McGimsie. I think he’s probably one of the weaker 1st line centers, but he’s not out of place in that role. He brings big-time speed, and seems like he can score and pass well.
-Hergesheimer is pretty one-dimentional, but he’s one of the very elite scorers in this draft. In fact, a case could be made that he is the best.
-both of the above are smaller guys, so having a big guy like Craven on the wing helps. Looking at the bio you made, he appears to be quite a bit better than I originally thought. He looks like an excellent glue-guy.
-The line is reasonably well-constructed. It’s got a little bit of everything. Only think I might be worried about is that they might get pushed around. Craven brings some size, and puck-winning, but unless I’m missing something, he’s not overly physical or tough.

2nd Line: Mickoski-Reay-Stoughton
-Reay is pretty easy to build around, since he brings everything to the table. I don’t think he’s great at anything, but he’s good at everything!
-Staughton is a lot like Hergesheimer – he only does one thing, but he’s very good at it.
-Mickoski brings a good mix of scoring and 2-way play. Despite his size, he wasn’t a physical presence.
-This line is also well-constructed. If I was worried about something, it would be the lack of playmaking. Reay is the only real source of playmaking, and he’s not great in that aspect.

3rd Line: Gracie-Stemkowski-Christian
-Stemkowski seems to be a well-rounded player. Like Reay, he seems to be pretty good at everything, but great at nothing. The exception would be face-offs, which he appears to be very good at.
-I’m not a fan of Gracie here. He seems to be an offense only guy, so he eally only fits in on scoring lines. Moreover, his attitude might be a distraction if he’s not on a scoring line.
-Chritsian looks a lot like Gracie without the attitude.
-If this is a checking line, I don’t see it being very effective. If this is a secondary scoring line, it’s pretty mediocre. It lacks both playmaking and physical play.

1st Pair: Cooper-Hillman
-Hillman is kind of tough to get a read on. He had a tough time staying in the NHL, but when he did, he was a really good player. Part of his problem was that he spent his prim behind Tim Horton, Allan Stanley, Bob Baun, and either Carl Brewer or Marcel Pronovost. He’s pretty well-rounded, and his voting record is solid.
-Cooper looks like a good physical defenseman.
-I think this pair is an excellent shut-down pairing. They’ll beat up on a lot of smaller guys.

2nd Pair: Babinov-McKenney
-We know Babinov was a physical defenseman, but it’s tough to get a read on exactly how good he was.
-McKenney is pretty much a one-dimentional offensive defenseman.
-Both guys are very mobile, but I would be worried about them getting stuck against tough defensive match-ups.

Goaltending: Beaupre-Ranford
-Both guys seem pretty solid, but unspectacular. They won’t win you games or lose you games.


Main concern - While you have an excellent shut-down defense pairing, you completely lack a forward line for this role. What's your plan up front in that regard?

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