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The MLD 2012 Assassination Thread

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Old
08-21-2012, 01:35 AM
  #251
TheDevilMadeMe
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Dreakmur, Gracie's LOH profile says "He was a fine playmaker and scorer who also played responsible defence."

The defense is an afterthought to the offense, but it's there

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08-21-2012, 01:50 AM
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So nothing about Kampman in particular?
I asked Stan Fischler (I know, I know...but he was the only one I could think of that I have some access to that might be able to shed some light on it) about him earlier today, said that he was just a bit before his time. Doesn't know much about the Leafs before the War on an intimate level. Pretty much just rehashed his physical play, couldn't speak for his skating ability or why he was ousted from the league for good. Pelletier actually naming a negative about a player isn't good enough in this case? Just asking, honest question...

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08-21-2012, 01:54 AM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Dreakmur, Gracie's LOH profile says "He was a fine playmaker and scorer who also played responsible defence."

The defense is an afterthought to the offense, but it's there
Despite that quote, I don't like his defensive game. I researched him quite a bit when we considered him in this draft. Not only did I find nothing else to back up his defense, I found some things that went the other way.

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08-21-2012, 02:14 AM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I asked Stan Fischler (I know, I know...but he was the only one I could think of that I have some access to that might be able to shed some light on it) about him earlier today, said that he was just a bit before his time. Doesn't know much about the Leafs before the War on an intimate level. Pretty much just rehashed his physical play, couldn't speak for his skating ability or why he was ousted from the league for good. Pelletier actually naming a negative about a player isn't good enough in this case? Just asking, honest question...
Pelletier also says "Upon his discharge Kampman, like so many Leafs of the early 40s, found his old roster spot taken by a younger player. Kampman continued to play on in various minor and senior leagues until 1950." A far cry from the claim that he lost his job because his skating was exposed.

I'm sure Kampman was a slower than average skater - He was a big burly defensive defenseman. If his skating was great, he would have receieved more awards recognition (probably an All Star nod or two). And he wouldn't have been available to draft in the MLD.

I don't really like two short career guys paired together on a top pairing, though. Given Kampman's short career, I think second pairing duty would be safer

PS. How do you have access to Stan Fischler?


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-21-2012 at 02:22 AM.
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Old
08-21-2012, 07:48 AM
  #255
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Thanks canadiens1958 for the review. Yeah, I'm thinking about switching Bob Turner to the bench in favour of Lewis. Was wondering if I should move Coutu up to the 2nd pairing or put Lewis there, anyone want to jump in and help me here?

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08-21-2012, 08:36 AM
  #256
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Ahlii

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
The WHA was a high paid league which attracted some of the best players in the world to the high $$$$. The AHL of the O6 era were guys who couldn't make the starting line-up of NHL teams. The difference here is significant. You seem to undervalue the WHA a bit too much. It's of course not the NHL level, but it ain't the AHL level either. And in the MLD, Shmyr is not being compared to any Norris trophy finalists.
Three of the MLD picks were NHL regulars - Hy Buller, Jim Morrison, Larry Hillman as well as solid to star AHL defensemen. If you look at Shmyr's NHL career compared to the NHL careers of the three AHL comparables listed in this post, Shmyr comes up short defensively and offensively. Except for a slight NHL longevity edge on Buller there is his NHL performance reflects a huge drop from the WHA level. He may have value in an All Time WHA ATD.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-21-2012 at 10:00 AM. Reason: caps/typo
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08-21-2012, 09:18 AM
  #257
VanIslander
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Longevity is not significant in the expansion era as there were suddenly waay more NHL jobs plus competitiom from a high paying league! (and with several of the world's best players in Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union, the NHL of the seventies is not conparable to several other eras in terms of the value of longevity in NHL careers!

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08-21-2012, 10:04 AM
  #258
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Thank You.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Longevity is not significant in the expansion era as there were suddenly waay more NHL jobs plus competitiom from a high paying league! (and with several of the world's best players in Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union, the NHL of the seventies is not conparable to several other eras in terms of the value of longevity in NHL careers!
So longevity is not a factor for 2012 NHL active players either since the NHL is even more multi-national, there are even more jobs and there is competition from the high paying KHL especially for the entry level Russian players.

Thank you for the acknowledgement of the longevity factor for the young players drafted.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-21-2012 at 10:05 AM. Reason: clarity.
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Old
08-21-2012, 10:36 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
So longevity is not a factor for 2012 NHL active players either since the NHL is even more multi-national,...

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08-21-2012, 11:31 AM
  #260
Mike Farkas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Pelletier also says "Upon his discharge Kampman, like so many Leafs of the early 40s, found his old roster spot taken by a younger player. Kampman continued to play on in various minor and senior leagues until 1950." A far cry from the claim that he lost his job because his skating was exposed.

I'm sure Kampman was a slower than average skater - He was a big burly defensive defenseman. If his skating was great, he would have receieved more awards recognition (probably an All Star nod or two). And he wouldn't have been available to draft in the MLD.

I don't really like two short career guys paired together on a top pairing, though. Given Kampman's short career, I think second pairing duty would be safer

PS. How do you have access to Stan Fischler?
Fair enough, without video I have no way of knowing how good of a skater he was...even if his replacement(s) were known as better skaters, I guess there's no way to ascertain anything about Kampmann...

Re: Fischler. We've just had a few back-and-forths via e-mail somewhat recently. I'm privy to a tiny bit more information on the media front than most...not a ton, but I have some decent contacts...though most don't pertain to history. One big one that I was disappointed wouldn't respond to a historical inquiry was Bruins scout Sergei Starikov (whose son, as luck would have it, works with one of the players I used to coach), he could have been most helpful...but alas, it wasn't in the cards. But I've been trying to get some additional first-hand opinions on things to settle squabbles that I think are poignant, yet mysterious (like Hainsworth being ignored in AS voting in the late 20's despite his numbers...I don't mean to derail the discussion, but Fischler chalked it up to "style of play bias", Worters playing for a worse team, doing more for them let to his candidacy for votes instead of Hainsworth...not earth-shattering, or even terribly concrete, as that was a generation before his time, but whatever, I'm just rambling...)

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Old
08-21-2012, 11:58 AM
  #261
TheDevilMadeMe
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Polar Twins review

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Winston-Salem Polar Twins


Power Play 1
Riley - Nilsson - Kehoe
Ellett - Guevremont

Power Play 2
Juneau - Horvath - Bernier
Kiessling - Maxwell

Penalty Kill 1
Burns - Brown
Ellett - Butcher

Penalty Kill 2
Yelle - Juneau
Langlois - Guevremont

Team Concept

Each forward line has a distinct identity and role. The first line is built around speed and puck movement, with Kehoe as the triggerman for two playmakers. The second line is your typical passer-scorer-garbageman setup, except this time the centerman (Horvath) is the trigger. Also, the second line features solid defensive wingers in Juneau and Dornhoefer. Third line is built around the concept of counterattack -- an excellent shutdown center and playmaker in Charlie Burns, flanked by wingers Bernier and Riley, who are dangerous in odd-man transition. Basically, the opponent has a shadow on its best forward and another forward staying high, negating a large part of its attack. The fourth line is essentially an energy line -- Yelle ensures possession on the faceoff and feeds Brown and Boll to move the puck out of danger. Brown will draw penalties on a regular basis, which is significant considering he will usually take a bottom-6 PK guy with him.

The defense is built around balance. Each line features at least one capable offensive player and at least one guy who will play a hard-hitting defensive game. RHS and LHS are balanced on each line. I'm considering top-loading the offensive talent, but still leaning against that idea.

Karakas will get the majority of starts in the early season, and the reins will slowly be handed to Irbe in time for him to be the playoff starter.

The spares cover all positions. Dolly Swift can fill in as a puck-rushing defenseman or a top-6 forward. Henning will cover checking roles. Brown is reliable as a defensive defenseman. I'd feel comfortable switching all of these guys in and out of the lineup on a healthy basis, as matchups demand.

Cherry will get the most out of the gritty SOB's on the team, of which there are several. ****-disturbers Brown, Horvath and Kiessling will ensure that nobody plays a quiet penalty-free game against this group. When things get ugly, the team has several players who are happy to drop the gloves, and feed Cherry's game plan. King provides the yin to Cherry's yang, managing the more nuanced aspects of the game and keeping Cherry's negatives in check.
Coaching and leadership:

I'm not sure why 70s and Dreakmur think Cherry is one of the best coaches in the MLD, other than the fact that he's usually (mistakenly IMO) taken in the main draft. He was a great coach for a brief period of time for the Big Bad Bruins and pretty terrible afterwards.

Cherry was a great motivator, but a poor tactician. Despite what I said above, I do think he's a solid MLD-calibre coach if given an assistant to help with the Xs and Os. King seems like a more intellectual coach, so he's a great fit as an assistant... So long as he can handle Cherry's ego.

Dustin Brown and Garth Butcher are fine choices for a C and an A at this level, but do you really want your captain to be a guy playing 4th line minutes? Especially if an A is on the bottom pairing? Not sure what leadership credentials Ellett has.

Forwards:

Typical glue guy-playmaker-shooter first line. Scanlan is a lot like Billy Gilmour. Anecdotally, he was one of the top players of his era, but his goal scoring stats just aren't that good. Scanlan seems like he might be even better in corners than Gilmour, but without the defensive reputation. His board work will help the first line a ton, but he'a going to rely on his linemates to carry much of the scoring load. Nilsson is a very good playmaker for this level, but the fact that he couldn't stay healthy in the NHL after leaving the WHA might be a concern. Kehoe should be very good at finishing chances by his linemates, but won't create many of his own.

Second line is also well constructed. Bronco Horvath is one of the better goal scorers in the MLD, but he needs people to get him the puck to be effective. Joe Juneau isn't anything special at this level, but should be adequate at getting the puck to his center. Dornhoefer provides the pugilism and something of a defensive conscience.

I'm really not sure what you're going for with your third line. Charlie Burns is an excellent defensive center, but you got him some offense-only wingers. Jim Riley, in particular, seems like a guy who needs a good playmaker to be effective, and I'm not sure if he has that here. Bernier seems more like a balanced offensive player. The line also seems kind of soft. Suggestion:Bench Riley and replace him with Brown. Brown adds some much needed grit to the line and gives your captain more ice time. I do think Riley is good enough to play in the MLD; I just don't like the fit.

Yelle is an excellent defensive specialist and PKer at this level. I've never been sold on Buzz Boll's nonoffensive abilities, though that could be from lack of information provided.

Defense:

Your first pairing is going to provide a lot of supporting offense, but I think they might get in trouble in their own zone. I realize that Ellett got better defensively as he got older, but he was still an offensive defenseman first and foremost. Maxwell reads like another offensie defenseman, but a much more physical one.

Guevremont is another offensive minded defenseman. Langlois is a well-rounded defensive specialist. *I guess this is your shutdown pair? Can Guevremont handle that role?

I still have no idea how good Udo Keissling was. The AS nod at the 1987 WCs is nice, but it is just one good tournament. His accolades in the German league show he didn't just come out of nowhere. But it's hard to know what to make of them - the DEL is a lower quality league than the modern AHL. He reads like a physical defenseman who can provide offense. Butcher isn't the most talented guy, but he provides some much needed leadership to your team from the bottom pairing. And he's a very hard hitter and good agitator. Limit his minutes, but he could be very useful as a specialist, especially against less disciplined teams.

Spares:

I honestly think you should find a way to get Arnie Brown and Lorne Henning into the lineup. Your defense is a bit lacking in shutdown ability, and Arnie Brown is arguably the best defensive defenseman you have, or at least second to Langlois. He made his career manning the fort when Harry Howell or Brad Park got more involved offensively. And Henning seems like the perfect partner for a shutdown line centered by Yelle - a line centered by Yelle isn't going to score much anyway.

Swift is useful as an offensively oriented spare.

Goalies:

I think Karakas is an adequate starter here. Not spectacular, but he'll get the job done. *I do like him better than the inconsistent Irbe. Irbe has shown he can take over in the playoffs if the starter falters, but I think Karakas should be fine.

Powerplay:

Adequate talent all round on the firsr unit, but really missing the guy who is willing to screen the goalie and fight for dirty goals. Riley and Kehoe both read like perimeter goal scorers to me.

Point men on the second unit are good - Maxwell could easily play on most first units. A lot of talent up front (Horvath is the best goal scorer on your team and I would seriously try to get him on the first unit - maybe with Juneau centering the second unit?). But again, lacking that guy who can really go for the dirty goals.

Overall, these units should have very good puck movement with a talented LH/RH pair at the point. But they shouldn't be too hard to keep to the perimeter.

Penalty kill:

This is where dressing Arnie Brown and Lorne Henning will really help your. First the good: I love Burns and Yelle as your two PK centers - they are excellent. Their partners are less good - I like Dustin Brown better on a second unit and don't really like giving Juneau a top PK role at all. Henning would help here.

But where your PK is really lacking is the defense. Langlois is the only defenseman on your starting roster who I would trust with a big role on the PK at all! Butcher was drafted for his leadership, physicality, and agitation, but I don't think he's first unit PK material. The rest of your starters were offense-first guys, who really shouldn't be on a first PK unit either. IMO, you need to did a way to give Arnie Brown and Albert Langlois the majority of the PK time.

Overall:

A well constructed top 6. The bottom 6 has some good pieces, but could use some tweeking. Lack of shutdown defensemen in the lineup could be a problem. Adequate goaltending and coaching overall, though I can't see Cherry rolling with a perimeter powerplay like the one you constructed.

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Old
08-21-2012, 12:06 PM
  #262
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Despite that quote, I don't like his defensive game. I researched him quite a bit when we considered him in this draft. Not only did I find nothing else to back up his defense, I found some things that went the other way.
Here are some quotes I found:

Quote:
The action started and Bob Gracie saved Boston's hopes when he poked the puck away from Charlie Sands after a three-man Toronto break appeared ready to open up the scoring early.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ISD...hockey&f=false

Quote:
Our third line consisted of Harold Darragh, Bob Gracie, and Frank Finnigan.
http://books.google.com/books?id=eGU...hockey&f=false

This is circumstantial, but Finnigan was a known checker and penalty killer.

In other words, I couldn't find much of anything at all.

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Old
08-21-2012, 12:20 PM
  #263
tarheelhockey
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Thanks for the review, TDMM. I've got to run but broadly speaking, I agree with what you're seeing and have come to some of the same conclusions about placements. Will respond in more detail when I'm able.

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Old
08-21-2012, 12:21 PM
  #264
TheDevilMadeMe
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I'll review the Pittsburgh Dusquese next. Then I'll hit the Chicago Blaze if nobody gets them first.

I was planning on reviewing the Montreal Maroons next, since I am familiar with most of the players, but then noticed that no special teams have been posted


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-21-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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Old
08-21-2012, 01:10 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm really not sure what you're going for with your third line. Charlie Burns is an excellent defensive center, but you got him some offense-only wingers. Jim Riley, in particular, seems like a guy who needs a good playmaker to be effective, and I'm not sure if he has that here. Bernier seems more like a balanced offensive player. The line also seems kind of soft. Suggestion:Bench Riley and replace him with Brown. Brown adds some much needed grit to the line and gives your captain more ice time. I do think Riley is good enough to play in the MLD; I just don't like the fit.
Did Serge Bernier have some jam to his game? Maybe it's just because when I watched part of a Winnipeg-Quebec Avco Cup game, he took a high-stick to the face then went after the offending player. After they were both penalized Bernier sat in the box motioning to stick like he was gonna take the other guy's teeth out when they both hit the ice again. Seemed like he knew how to play the intimidation game. Perhaps CS58 can swoop in with an opinion.

Here's what Pelletier says, which suggests he wasn't necessarily the most effective physical presence
Quote:
One of the first men they brought in to fill this size problem was Serge Bernier - a 6'1" 200lb center. It was hoped that he could come in and soak up some of the heavy checking against some of the large and rugged Eastern teams. In fact Serge was the first ever draft pick in Philadelphia Flyers history.

...Given the desperate need to add size up the middle, Serge was given every chance to succeed that season, and he responded well with 23 goals and 51 points. However by mid season in 1971-72 it was decided that the Flyers needed to upgrade their physical play more so, and Bernier, along with Bill Lesuk and Jimmy Johnson, was traded to the Los Angeles Kings for Cowboy Bill Flett, Ross Lonsberry, Jean Potvin and Eddie Joyal. Serge finished the season with 23 goals and 45 points.

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08-21-2012, 01:21 PM
  #266
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Counterpoints

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Coaching and leadership:

I'm not sure why 70s and Dreakmur think Cherry is one of the best coaches in the MLD, other than the fact that he's usually (mistakenly IMO) taken in the main draft. He was a great coach for a brief period of time for the Big Bad Bruins and pretty terrible afterwards.

Cherry was a great motivator, but a poor tactician. Despite what I said above, I do think he's a solid MLD-calibre coach if given an assistant to help with the Xs and Os. King seems like a more intellectual coach, so he's a great fit as an assistant... So long as he can handle Cherry's ego.

Dustin Brown and Garth Butcher are fine choices for a C and an A at this level, but do you really want your captain to be a guy playing 4th line minutes? Especially if an A is on the bottom pairing? Not sure what leadership credentials Ellett has.

Forwards:

Typical glue guy-playmaker-shooter first line. Scanlan is a lot like Billy Gilmour. Anecdotally, he was one of the top players of his era, but his goal scoring stats just aren't that good. Scanlan seems like he might be even better in corners than Gilmour, but without the defensive reputation. His board work will help the first line a ton, but he'a going to rely on his linemates to carry much of the scoring load. Nilsson is a very good playmaker for this level, but the fact that he couldn't stay healthy in the NHL after leaving the WHA might be a concern. Kehoe should be very good at finishing chances by his linemates, but won't create many of his own.

Second line is also well constructed. Bronco Horvath is one of the better goal scorers in the MLD, but he needs people to get him the puck to be effective. Joe Juneau isn't anything special at this level, but should be adequate at getting the puck to his center. Dornhoefer provides the pugilism and something of a defensive conscience.

I'm really not sure what you're going for with your third line. Charlie Burns is an excellent defensive center, but you got him some offense-only wingers. Jim Riley, in particular, seems like a guy who needs a good playmaker to be effective, and I'm not sure if he has that here. Bernier seems more like a balanced offensive player. The line also seems kind of soft. Suggestion:Bench Riley and replace him with Brown. Brown adds some much needed grit to the line and gives your captain more ice time. I do think Riley is good enough to play in the MLD; I just don't like the fit.

Yelle is an excellent defensive specialist and PKer at this level. I've never been sold on Buzz Boll's nonoffensive abilities, though that could be from lack of information provided.

Defense:

Your first pairing is going to provide a lot of supporting offense, but I think they might get in trouble in their own zone. I realize that Ellett got better defensively as he got older, but he was still an offensive defenseman first and foremost. Maxwell reads like another offensie defenseman, but a much more physical one.

Guevremont is another offensive minded defenseman. Langlois is a well-rounded defensive specialist. *I guess this is your shutdown pair? Can Guevremont handle that role?

I still have no idea how good Udo Keissling was. The AS nod at the 1987 WCs is nice, but it is just one good tournament. His accolades in the German league show he didn't just come out of nowhere. But it's hard to know what to make of them - the DEL is a lower quality league than the modern AHL. He reads like a physical defenseman who can provide offense. Butcher isn't the most talented guy, but he provides some much needed leadership to your team from the bottom pairing. And he's a very hard hitter and good agitator. Limit his minutes, but he could be very useful as a specialist, especially against less disciplined teams.

Spares:

I honestly think you should find a way to get Arnie Brown and Lorne Henning into the lineup. Your defense is a bit lacking in shutdown ability, and Arnie Brown is arguably the best defensive defenseman you have, or at least second to Langlois. He made his career manning the fort when Harry Howell or Brad Park got more involved offensively. And Henning seems like the perfect partner for a shutdown line centered by Yelle - a line centered by Yelle isn't going to score much anyway.

Swift is useful as an offensively oriented spare.

Goalies:

I think Karakas is an adequate starter here. Not spectacular, but he'll get the job done. *I do like him better than the inconsistent Irbe. Irbe has shown he can take over in the playoffs if the starter falters, but I think Karakas should be fine.

Powerplay:

Adequate talent all round on the firsr unit, but really missing the guy who is willing to screen the goalie and fight for dirty goals. Riley and Kehoe both read like perimeter goal scorers to me.

Point men on the second unit are good - Maxwell could easily play on most first units. A lot of talent up front (Horvath is the best goal scorer on your team and I would seriously try to get him on the first unit - maybe with Juneau centering the second unit?). But again, lacking that guy who can really go for the dirty goals.

Overall, these units should have very good puck movement with a talented LH/RH pair at the point. But they shouldn't be too hard to keep to the perimeter.

Penalty kill:

This is where dressing Arnie Brown and Lorne Henning will really help your. First the good: I love Burns and Yelle as your two PK centers - they are excellent. Their partners are less good - I like Dustin Brown better on a second unit and don't really like giving Juneau a top PK role at all. Henning would help here.

But where your PK is really lacking is the defense. Langlois is the only defenseman on your starting roster who I would trust with a big role on the PK at all! Butcher was drafted for his leadership, physicality, and agitation, but I don't think he's first unit PK material. The rest of your starters were offense-first guys, who really shouldn't be on a first PK unit either. IMO, you need to did a way to give Arnie Brown and Albert Langlois the majority of the PK time.

Overall:

A well constructed top 6. The bottom 6 has some good pieces, but could use some tweeking. Lack of shutdown defensemen in the lineup could be a problem. Adequate goaltending and coaching overall, though I can't see Cherry rolling with a perimeter powerplay like the one you constructed.
Don Cherry. At the MLD level he is in his element, underdog, lunch pail players. Has an assistant that in theory will help but will their personalities work together?

Defense. Three well structured LHS/RHS pairs.Flip Arnie Brown for Langlois and you will have a better and more mobile group. Your end of game shutdown pairings will come from your 2nd and 3rd pairings. Maxwell and Ellett together are high risk/high reward in both zones. but I do not see the partners for a separation.

Forwards. LWers are iffy. Problematic against teams with solid or better RWers. Nice variety at center but no size.

Goalies. Should work well as a tandem in a structured sharing setting but this was never Cherry's approach. Ride the hot hand may not work as well.

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Old
08-21-2012, 01:27 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
His choice - Turner could play all three forward positions in a pinch.
That would really not be ideal. Messes up the 4th line a lot. How many shifts do you give them against such strong competition when one of them was a career defenseman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
[
1st Pair: Cooper-Hillman
-Hillman is kind of tough to get a read on. He had a tough time staying in the NHL, but when he did, he was a really good player. Part of his problem was that he spent his prim behind Tim Horton, Allan Stanley, Bob Baun, and either Carl Brewer or Marcel Pronovost. Heís pretty well-rounded, and his voting record is solid.
Not to mention, if you were to guess which non-NHL defensemen belonged in the NHL during the very exclusive O6 era, one of the first places you should look (if not the first) is to the AHL all-stars. Hillman was frequently among them.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
PS. How do you have access to Stan Fischler?
Thatís what I wanted to know!

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Three of the MLD picks were NHL regulars - Hy Buller, Jim Morrison, Larry Hillman as well as solid to star AHL defensemen. If you look at Shmyr's NHL career compared to the NHL careers of the three AHL comparables listed in this post, Shmyr comes up short defensively and offensively. Except for a slight NHL longevity edge on Buller there is his NHL performance reflects a huge drop from the WHA level. He may have value in an All Time WHA ATD.
This is funny.

Every player has a dropoff from their WHA performance to their NHL performance, with a few strange exceptions (Stoughton?) The thing with the AHL is itís where all the second tier players were fighting to get to the first tier. The overlap between the best in the AHL and the worst in the NHL was there, but it was slim. In the WHA era, it was huge. In the mid-1970s, perhaps 100 WHA players had the ability to usurp NHL players from their rosters, and a good number of them had the potential to play 1st line and 1st pairing roles. Shmyr is probably the 2nd-best WHA defenseman of all-time just based on WHA accomplishments*. Weíve drafted what, 40 1970s NHL defensemen by now, and the 2nd best of the WHA canít play among the 30th-40th of them? That doesnít fit how the WHA is perceived today, at all.

*really cursory look at WHA defensemen:

1. Tremblay: 2 DMT, 1 runner up, 1 SAST
2. Shmyr, 1 DMT, 2 runner up, 1 SAST
3. Stapleton, 1 DMT, 1 SAST
4. Ley, 1 DMT, 1 SAST
5. Undrafted, 2 runner up
6. Hamilton, 1 runner up, 1 SAST
7. Undrafted, 2 SAST
8. Undrafted, 2 SAST

Shmyr has three first team all-stars, tied with late-career Tremblay, and we know how good Tremblay was. Only one other player even has two. Seven others did it once.

Shmyr has four total all-star teams, tied with Tremblay. No one has three, and six others have two.

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I've never been sold on Buzz Boll's nonoffensive abilities, though that could be from lack of information provided.
Same.

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08-21-2012, 01:33 PM
  #268
Canadiens1958
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Serge Bernier

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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Did Serge Bernier have some jam to his game? Maybe it's just because when I watched part of a Winnipeg-Quebec Avco Cup game, he took a high-stick to the face then went after the offending player. After they were both penalized Bernier sat in the box motioning to stick like he was gonna take the other guy's teeth out when they both hit the ice again. Seemed like he knew how to play the intimidation game. Perhaps CS58 can swoop in with an opinion.

Here's what Pelletier says, which suggests he wasn't necessarily the most effective physical presence
Winnipeg was not an intimidating team.

That said Serge Bernier was a reasonably skilled RHS/C who could contribute offensively while not dragging a team down with poor defence. On a line with a scoring winger and a solid two way physical winger he would help most teams.

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08-21-2012, 02:14 PM
  #269
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Paul Shmyr

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
That would really not be ideal. Messes up the 4th line a lot. How many shifts do you give them against such strong competition when one of them was a career defenseman?



Not to mention, if you were to guess which non-NHL defensemen belonged in the NHL during the very exclusive O6 era, one of the first places you should look (if not the first) is to the AHL all-stars. Hillman was frequently among them.



Thatís what I wanted to know!



This is funny.

Every player has a dropoff from their WHA performance to their NHL performance, with a few strange exceptions (Stoughton?) The thing with the AHL is itís where all the second tier players were fighting to get to the first tier. The overlap between the best in the AHL and the worst in the NHL was there, but it was slim. In the WHA era, it was huge. In the mid-1970s, perhaps 100 WHA players had the ability to usurp NHL players from their rosters, and a good number of them had the potential to play 1st line and 1st pairing roles. Shmyr is probably the 2nd-best WHA defenseman of all-time just based on WHA accomplishments*. Weíve drafted what, 40 1970s NHL defensemen by now, and the 2nd best of the WHA canít play among the 30th-40th of them? That doesnít fit how the WHA is perceived today, at all.

*really cursory look at WHA defensemen:

1. Tremblay: 2 DMT, 1 runner up, 1 SAST
2. Shmyr, 1 DMT, 2 runner up, 1 SAST
3. Stapleton, 1 DMT, 1 SAST
4. Ley, 1 DMT, 1 SAST
5. Undrafted, 2 runner up
6. Hamilton, 1 runner up, 1 SAST
7. Undrafted, 2 SAST
8. Undrafted, 2 SAST

Shmyr has three first team all-stars, tied with late-career Tremblay, and we know how good Tremblay was. Only one other player even has two. Seven others did it once.

Shmyr has four total all-star teams, tied with Tremblay. No one has three, and six others have two.



Same.
Bob Trurner was a career penalty killing forward more than a career defenseman. So putting him on defense is more of a disservice.

Paul Shmyr. More or less making my point. Not first pairing quality.
2nd pairing, the 30 plus seventies range balanced against contributions from the other eras. In the context of the AHL / NHL, O6 era we are talking the tweener types like Larry Hillman,Hy Buller, Jim Morrison. NHL would have a pool of about 20 regular defensemen supported with an AHL/WHL,QSHL/QhHL/EPHL churn of players the likes of the previously listed plus Bob McCord, John Hanna, Marc Reaume, Don Johns, Pete Goegan, Al Arbour, Ian Cushenan, Jack Bionda, Steve Kraftcheck, etc.

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08-21-2012, 02:24 PM
  #270
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Bob Trurner was a career penalty killing forward more than a career defenseman. So putting him on defense is more of a disservice.

Paul Shmyr. More or less making my point. Not first pairing quality.
2nd pairing, the 30 plus seventies range balanced against contributions from the other eras. In the context of the AHL / NHL, O6 era we are talking the tweener types like Larry Hillman,Hy Buller, Jim Morrison. NHL would have a pool of about 20 regular defensemen supported with an AHL/WHL,QSHL/QhHL/EPHL churn of players the likes of the previously listed plus Bob McCord, John Hanna, Marc Reaume, Don Johns, Pete Goegan, Al Arbour, Ian Cushenan, Jack Bionda, Steve Kraftcheck, etc.
This tells us nothing. I'm not saying Shmyr belongs as the 30th-40th-best north american defenseman of the 70s. If he's the 2nd best WHA defenseman he belongs much higher than 30th-40th overall.

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08-21-2012, 02:39 PM
  #271
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How MLDers fared at the World Championships

With apologies to Sven Tumba, Jozef Golonka, Vladimir Zabrodsky, Nils Nilsson, Ronald Pettersson, Ulf Sterner, and Charlie Burns who I could not find complete statistics for. I'm still on the hunt and hope to add them in and would gladly be pointed in the right direction if someone has them already.

I'm also a bit skeptical of the completeness of the all-star/best forward record for some of the older players like Tumba and Sterner, so if anyone found information with different counts please let me know.

Also I only used numbers from the top division, so years when Satan and Vanek were playing the B Pools are not included here.

WC Finishes 1970-1994
NameBest FinishesWC Stats (During this period)First/Last Event
Erich Kunhackl T1, T4, T7, T16, T2065 GP, 34 G, 32 A, 66 PTS1976-1985
Valeri KamenskyT4, T4, T11, T16, T1755 GP, 29 G, 19 A, 48 PTS1986-1994
Slava BykovT4, T5, T5, T13, T1478 GP, 37 G, 31 A, 68 PTS1983-1993
Jiri Lala2, 3, T4, 8 48 GP, 31 G, 17 A, 48 PTS1981-1986
Bohuslav Stastny8, T15, T15, T2060 GP, 31 G, 19 A, 50 PTS1971-1976
Andrei Khomutov2, 2, T1278 GP, 29 G, 33 A, 62 PTS1981-1993
Nikolai Drozdetsky4, T5, T1226 GP, 11 G, 13 A, 24 PTS1981-1985
Brian BellowsT1, T1128 GP, 12 G, 15 A, 27 PTS1987-1990
Marian StastnyT7, T1141 GP, 16 G, 22 A, 38 PTS1975-1979
Viktor Zhlukhov T10, T1619 GP, 10 G, 11 A, 21 PTS 1976-1977
Geoff SandersonT18, T2016 GP, 7 G, 5 A, 12 PTS1993-1994
Shayne CorsonT315 GP, 6 G, 7 A, 13 PTS1993-1994
Dave ChristianT514 GP, 12 G, 6 A, 18 PTS1981-1989
Willy Lindstrom617 GP, 9 G, 6 A, 15 PTS 1974-1975
Vincent LukacT735 GP, 13 G, 9 A, 22 PTS1977-1985
Pierre LaroucheT710 GP, 7 G, 8 A, 15 PTS1977-1977
Michael NylanderT8 15 GP, 1 G, 8 A, 9 PTS1992-1993
Mikael RenbergT88 GP, 3 G, 5 A, 8 PTS1993-1993
Patrik SundstromT1118 GP, 9 G, 2 A, 11 PTS1981-1982
Aleksandr KozhevnikovT1110 GP, 6 G, 1 A, 7PTS1982-1982
Ulf DahlenT1316 GP, 7 G, 4 A, 11 PTS1989-1993
Tony GranatoT1626 GP, 8 G, 12 A, 20 PTS1985-1987
Alexei ZhamnovT1615 GP, 3 G, 6 A, 9 PTS1991-1992
Ulf NilssonT1711 GP, 6 G, 3 A, 9 PTS1973-1974
Steve ThomasT1821 GP, 8 G, 10 A, 18 PTS1991-1994
Sami KapanenT188 GP, 4 G, 2 A, 6 PTS1994-1994
Anton StastnyT208 GP, 5 G, 1 A, 6 PTS1979-1979

WC Finishes 1995-2012
NameBest FinishesWC Stats (During this period)First/Last Event
Miroslav Satan1, 1, T5, T6, T1673 GP, 35 G, 34 A, 69 PTS1996-2012
Michael Nylander T3, T5, T8, T17, T2060 GP, 16 G, 39 A, 53 PTS1996-2010
Radek Dvorak T7, T9, T1035 GP, 9 G, 16 A, 25 PTS 1999-2005
Mikko KoivuT8, T10, T1446 GP, 13 G, 23 A, 36 PTS2006-2012
Dustin BrownT14, T17, T1832 GP, 14 G, 14 A, 28 PTS2004-2009
Sami Kapanen4, T1448 GP, 18 G, 15 A, 33 PTS1995-2010
Danny BriereT5, T1018 GP, 6 G, 11 A, 17 PTS2003-2004
P.J. AxelssonT5, T1743 GP, 14 G, 18 A, 32 PTS2000-2005
Mikael RenbergT8, T1528 GP, 12 G, 8 A, 20 PTS1998-2003
Ulf DahlenT8, T1819 GP, 8 G, 5 A, 13 PTS1998-2002
Niklas SundstromT16, T1818 GP, 6 G, 7 A, 13 PTS1998-1999
Robert LangT116 GP, 6 G, 5 A, 13 PTS 1996-1997
Alexei MorozovT252 GP, 19 G, 21 A, 40 PTS1997-2011
Patrice BergeronT218 GP, 7G, 8 A, 15 PTS2004-2006
Loui Eriksson426 GP, 11 G, 13 A, 24 PTS 2009-2012
Anze KopitarT517 GP, 7 G, 7 A, 14 PTS2005-2008
Cory StillmanT910 GP, 4 G, 4 A, 8 PTS1999-1999
Thomas VanekT1012 GP, 3 G, 8 A, 11 PTS2004-2009
Johan FranzenT1220 GP, 5 G, 8 A, 13 PTS2005-2012
Rob NiedermayerT1719 GP, 4 G, 5 A, 9 PTS1999-2004
Zach PariseT2011 GP, 5 G, 5 A, 10 PTS2005-2008

Best Forward Winners
Sven Tumba x2 ('57, '62)
Alexei Morozov ('07)
Sami Kapanen ('01)
Miroslav Satan ('00)
Michael Nylander ('97)
Valeri Kamensky ('91)
Brian Bellows ('89)
Jiri Lala ('83)
Ulf Sterner ('69)
Nils Nilsson ('60)
Charlie Burns ('58)

All-Star Team Recipients
Ulf Sterner x2 ('69, '62)
Alexei Morozov ('07)
Miroslav Satan ('02)
Michael Nylander ('97)
Mikael Renberg ('93)
Ulf Dahlen ('93)
Valeri Kamensky ('91)
Andrei Khomutov ('90)
Vyacheslav Bykov ('89)
Nils Nilsson ('62)


Last edited by Rob Scuderi: 08-22-2012 at 03:18 PM.
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08-21-2012, 02:39 PM
  #272
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This is circumstantial, but Finnigan was a known checker and penalty killer.

In other words, I couldn't find much of anything at all.
Where did you read that he was known as a checker and penalty killer?

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08-21-2012, 02:54 PM
  #273
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Dustin Brown and Garth Butcher are fine choices for a C and an A at this level, but do you really want your captain to be a guy playing 4th line minutes? Especially if an A is on the bottom pairing? Not sure what leadership credentials Ellett has.
One of the least-fun parts of assembling my lineup was deciding where to place the letters. I don't exactly see Brown as the ideal captain of this team, but from an historical perspective his 2012 was by far the most significant leadership accomplishment in the group. I hadn't really thought about him and Butcher being on the ice together in such limited minutes. Maybe some other player should get the C... I'm just not sure yet. I'm kinda leaning toward Butcher now.

It's odd because I don't feel that the group has a leadership void. They just don't have a single player who seems like he should be the overwhelming leader of the group.

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Scanlan seems like he might be even better in corners than Gilmour, but without the defensive reputation. His board work will help the first line a ton, but he'a going to rely on his linemates to carry much of the scoring load.
I have the same read on him. I picked Scanlan specifically for his role in the development of combination passing. The idea being that Nilsson can get the puck to Kehoe via Scanlan, even if the defense is keying on a direct Nilsson-Kehoe connection. All three of them have pretty good hockey sense, so it should work out ok.

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Joe Juneau isn't anything special at this level, but should be adequate at getting the puck to his center. Dornhoefer provides the pugilism and something of a defensive conscience.
This is one of those weird ATD things where careers have to be telescoped, but don't forget that Juneau actually turned into a decent defensive winger in his later years and was on the Washington PK that made the Finals. Horvath is flat-out lazy defensively, so he needs a couple of linemates who can backcheck.

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I'm really not sure what you're going for with your third line. Charlie Burns is an excellent defensive center, but you got him some offense-only wingers. Jim Riley, in particular, seems like a guy who needs a good playmaker to be effective, and I'm not sure if he has that here. Bernier seems more like a balanced offensive player. The line also seems kind of soft. Suggestion:Bench Riley and replace him with Brown. Brown adds some much needed grit to the line and gives your captain more ice time. I do think Riley is good enough to play in the MLD; I just don't like the fit.
I like the suggestion. TBH I kind of lost my way with this line mid-draft. The concept as it's currently constructed is that in a matchup with a scoring line, Burns shadows the opponent's best offensive player and the wingers are a transition threat to prevent Burns' target from getting help. The safest way to play against them is to keep a forward high, which negates a lot of the scoring line's potential for offensive pressure. This was all conceived before I stumbled across Henning in the late rounds. Now that I've had some time to think about it, such a line might work on the micro scale (a game or playoff series) but it's too delicate for a long regular season. Sooner or later the lineup gets shuffled and everything is out of sorts. I'll have to re-evaluate how to use Riley, who I agree is MLD-useful but not a good fit for Burns.

Quote:
I've never been sold on Buzz Boll's nonoffensive abilities, though that could be from lack of information provided.
I've always understood him as an energy guy who motored around. That implies some degree of presence away from the puck, but I'll have to dig for verification.


Quote:
I still have no idea how good Udo Keissling was. The AS nod at the 1987 WCs is nice, but it is just one good tournament. His accolades in the German league show he didn't just come out of nowhere. But it's hard to know what to make of them - the DEL is a lower quality league than the modern AHL. He reads like a physical defenseman who can provide offense.
At an absolute bare minimum, zero benefit of the doubt, he was a dirty little **** with a ridiculously high pain threshold. I'm still working on a way to estimate his offensive skill level, but I'd ballpark his NHL-level offensive ability at around 20-40 points depending on the season. The toughest thing for me to figure out is his defensive game -- which was extremely good in the DEL, but who knows what that means in the NHL.

I hate to do it because I have a gut feeling that he would have been a very good NHL'er, but I've slid him down to the third pairing to avoid the inevitable skepticism that would accompany a top-4 position. I will defend him on the bottom pair because I just don't think he's a AAA-level player.

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And Henning seems like the perfect partner for a shutdown line centered by Yelle - a line centered by Yelle isn't going to score much anyway.
That's probably where he will end up once the dust settles.


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Adequate talent all round on the firsr unit, but really missing the guy who is willing to screen the goalie and fight for dirty goals. Riley and Kehoe both read like perimeter goal scorers to me.
Kehoe is deceptive. He wasn't a physical guy, but he scored a ton of goals near the crease. If you search for him on YouTube, somebody has uploaded a bunch of old Pens scoring clips. Time after time you see Kehoe taking shots from the low slot, because he crept in quietly while the defensemen were moving. The line could probably still use some physicality, but they have more net presence than it seems at first glance.

At the end of the day I'll probably scratch Riley anyway, so that will shuffle things around quite a bit.

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08-21-2012, 03:05 PM
  #274
seventieslord
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Where did you read that he was known as a checker and penalty killer?
Finnigan? That is well-known. You might have thought he was referring to Boll.

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08-21-2012, 03:49 PM
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Finnigan? That is well-known. You might have thought he was referring to Boll.
I thought he was talking about Bob Gracie.

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