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The MLD 2012 Assassination Thread

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Old
08-21-2012, 04:11 PM
  #276
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I thought he was talking about Bob Gracie.
right, that's what I meant

basically the fact that Gracie played on a line with Finnigan for a while is circumstantial evidence that he was used defensively for some time. As someone who's had Gracie, I'd say he is adequate defensively from an MLD standpoint. Probably better than average for a top-6 guy (so a passable "defensive conscience" to a scorer) but below average for a checking line.

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08-21-2012, 04:16 PM
  #277
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That's what I meant, the fact that he was used on the same line as a guy that was a checker suggests he has a bit of defensive ability. I'm not a fan of having one designated checking line. I think it's a waste. I'd rather have 2-3 lines that are capable of playing a defensive role. At the same time, I inherited this team with Christian, Stemkowski, and other forwards already drafted so I had to kind of make due with what I could. If I had control the entire way, the line would probably look quite different.

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08-21-2012, 04:43 PM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
basically the fact that Gracie played on a line with Finnigan for a while is circumstantial evidence that he was used defensively for some time.
It's more like the weak basis for an assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
That's what I meant, the fact that he was used on the same line as a guy that was a checker suggests he has a bit of defensive ability.
Or it suggests Gracie was bad defensively, and needed to have a great defensive player on the other side.

Quote:
I inherited this team with Christian, Stemkowski, and other forwards already drafted so I had to kind of make due with what I could. If I had control the entire way, the line would probably look quite different.
Add/Drop - there are some good guys left.

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08-21-2012, 04:52 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
It's more like the weak basis for an assumption.

Or it suggests Gracie was bad defensively, and needed to have a great defensive player on the other side.
that sounds like the weak basis for assumption.

scoring stars need complements like that. Gracie was a good offensive player, but not a scoring star. I really doubt Finnigan was babysitting him so he could go out and score his 21-36 points.

Quote:
Add/Drop - there are some good guys left.
It's an option, and there are some good players, but none of those three guys stands out as a particularly bad pick and dropping them just might be counterproductive.

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08-21-2012, 05:06 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
that sounds like the weak basis for assumption.

scoring stars need complements like that. Gracie was a good offensive player, but not a scoring star. I really doubt Finnigan was babysitting him so he could go out and score his 21-36 points.
My point was that taking a leap of logic isn't really the best way to go here.

Quote:
It's an option, and there are some good players, but none of those three guys stands out as a particularly bad pick and dropping them just might be counterproductive.
Better players? Probably not. Better for a checking role? Definately!

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08-21-2012, 05:07 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post

Montreal Orfuns
Montreal Orfuns

Coach - Claude Ruel,
Assistant coach Guy Boucher

Goalies:
Jonathan Quick, Carey Price, Eddie Johnston

Defence:
Rick Green, Erik Karlsson
Don Sweeney, Kris Letang
Brad Marsh "C", Sylvain Cote
Charles Tobin,Bob Murray

Forwards:
Geoff Courtnall - Barry Pederson - Billy Harris
Shayne Corson ''A" - Jordan Staal - Russ Courtnall
Danny Grant - Mike Ridley - Claude Larose "A"
Erik Cole - Robert Lang - Modere "Mud" Bruneteau

PP1 - Geoff Courtnall - Barry Pederson - Billy Harris - Bob Murray - Erik Karlsson.
PP2 - Shayne Corson - Jordan Staal - Russ Courtnall - Don Sweeney - Kris Letang

PK1- Barry Pederson, Billy Harris, Brad Marsh,Sylvain Cote.
PK2 - Jordan Staal,Shayne Corson, Rick Green, Bob Murray.

1916 or earlier - Charles Tobin
1917-1942 - Modere Bruneteau
1943-1965 - Claude Larose
1966-1979 - Rick Green
1980-1994 - Shayne Corson
1995-2004 - Erik Cole
2012 - Erik Karlsson

Team has qualified for the playoffs.

Also would like to introduce our mascot and his apprentice.
Since you reviewed mine, I will review yours:

Line 1:

Courtnall is a good pick here. He's a player I've always liked. Seems like he does everything well on the offensive side of the puck and adds a decent physical game. Barry Pederson is unfairly criticized for not being as good as a guy he was traded for. Pederson was actually a good player pre-injury. I think he'll be fine for your team. Harris is another guy I've always liked, solid pick. This line lacks a true superstar but I think you should be fine here.

Line 2:

Corson is another guy I've always liked, he's more of a gritty guy but he'll score you a few points, solid pick. I'm not totally sold on Jordan Staal as a 2nd liner in this. His career so far warrants a selection in this draft but not for the 2nd line. He'd look good as the centre on one of your bottom 2 lines. Russ Courtnall was always known as the better Courtnall. He's a solid playmaker. This line is decent but it may suffer from having a true goal scorer.

Line 3:

Grant is a solid player for the 3rd line, he's good enough offensively to be moved up to the 2nd line. For Marcel Dionne to call him the best left winger he ever played with is pretty lofty praise. Mike Ridley is another player I've always liked, I remember having an old hockey book back in 1993 and Ridley was called one of the best non-superstars in the NHL. Always a solid player, great pick for your team. Claude Larose is a solid 2 way guy. This is a solid line and perhaps is better than your 2nd line. If I where you I'd switch Grant and Ridley here for Corson and Staal but that's up to you.

Line 4:

Cole's a solid player for you. He's more of a grit guy but he'll still chip in with some offense, always something you want in your bottom 6. Robert Lang is a good pick as well, like Ridley he's a good playmaker. Mud Brunetau was a solid 2 way guy as well. Known most for ending the longest game in NHL history. Overall this is a solid line.

Extra Forwards:

This could hurt your team in case of injury you're up the creek without a paddle so to speak. You have a decent set of forwards but no protection on your bench to account for matchups or injury, that could hurt you here.

Defensive Pairing 1:

Rick Green is a good guy here, he was known as a great stay at home guy during his career. No offense to you but Erik Karlsson should be nowhere near a MLD lineup right now. The guy's going to be a great NHL player but I'd probably only draft him now on an AA team. This was a panned pick and rightly so.

Defensive Pairing 2:

Don Sweeney was a fine defensive defenseman but again I don't think he did enough in his career to warrant being a top 4 defenseman in the MLD. Bottom Pairing or extra defenseman? Yes but not a top 2 pairing guy. Kris Letang is like Karlsson and has a great future but again hasn't done enough in his career to warrant being selected in the MLD. This pairing is going to do more harm than help to your team.

Defensive Pairing 3:

This might be my favourite pairing on your team. Marsh is a tremendous shutdown defenseman and a great choice for captain (He was the captain of my MLD team last year actually), solid pick. As is Cote, Cote's numbers may not warrant a position on the top pairing but I would believe him as a top 4 defenseman in this thing, solid pairing.

Extra Defenseman:

Charles Tobin is a good pick here and I'd almost slot him in here ahead of Karlsson or Letang. Same as Bob Murray. You drafted wisely here with your extra defenseman, they'll be needed IMO.

Goaltending:

Again, some questionable picks here. Quick had a great playoff but there are a lot of better career goalies out there. Carey Price is a guy I liked but not as a MLD backup. You drafted Eddie Johnston, he'll probably be needed by your team before the end of the season.

Coaching:

Ruel is a fine choice for a coach here. Guy Boucher? Not so much. Boucher had a great 1st season in Tampa but fell a little last year, be interesting to see how Boucher bounces back this year.

Final Thoughts:

I really like your forwards but your defense and goalies will end up hurting you. It's a decent effort for a first-time GM but maybe if you continue to participate in these you could benefit from a co-GM, it helped me and it could certainly help you too.

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08-21-2012, 05:22 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
That's what I meant, the fact that he was used on the same line as a guy that was a checker suggests he has a bit of defensive ability. I'm not a fan of having one designated checking line. I think it's a waste. I'd rather have 2-3 lines that are capable of playing a defensive role. At the same time, I inherited this team with Christian, Stemkowski, and other forwards already drafted so I had to kind of make due with what I could. If I had control the entire way, the line would probably look quite different.
Well make a trade proposal if you wish. I'm like a field of corn - all ears.

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08-21-2012, 05:43 PM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
With apologies to Sven Tumba, Jozef Golonka, Vladimir Zabrodsky, Nils Nilsson, Ronald Pettersson, Ulf Sterner, and Charlie Burns who I could not find complete statistics for. I'm still on the hunt and hope to add them in and would gladly be pointed in the right direction if someone has them already.

I'm also a bit skeptical of the completeness of the all-star/best forward record for some of the older players like Tumba and Sterner, so if anyone found information with different counts please let me know.

Also I only used numbers from the top division, so years when Satan and Vanek were playing the B Pools are not included here.

WC Finishes
NameBest FinishesWC Stats First/Last Event
Miroslav Satan1, 1, T5, T6, T1673 GP, 35 G, 34 A, 69 PTS1996-2012
Erich Kunhackl T1, T4, T7, T16, T2065 GP, 34 G, 32 A, 66 PTS1976-1985
Brian BellowsT1, T1128 GP, 12 G, 15 A, 27 PTS1987-1990
Robert LangT124 GP, 8 G, 7 A, 15 PTS 1992-1997
Andrei Khomutov2, 2, T1284 GP, 30 G, 36 A, 66 PTS1981-1995
Jiri Lala2, 3, T4, 8 48 GP, 31 G, 17 A, 48 PTS1981-1986
Alexei MorozovT252 GP, 19 G, 21 A, 40 PTS1997-2011
Patrice BergeronT218 GP, 7G, 8 A, 15 PTS2004-2006
Michael Nylander T3, T5, T8, T8, T17, T20 75 GP, 17 G, 47 A, 62 PTS1992-2010
Shayne CorsonT315 GP, 6 G, 7 A, 13 PTS1993-1994
Valeri KamenskyT4, T4, T11, T16, T1761 GP, 29 G, 19 A, 48 PTS1986-2000
Slava Bykov T4, T5, T5, T13, T1484 GP, 39 G, 33 A, 72 PTS1983-1995
Nikolai Drozdetsky4, T5, T1226 GP, 11 G, 13 A, 24 PTS1981-1985
Sami Kapanen4, T14, T1856 GP, 22 G, 17 A, 39 PTS 1994-2010
Loui Eriksson426 GP, 11 G, 13 A, 24 PTS 2009-2012
Danny BriereT5, T1018 GP, 6 G, 11 A, 17 PTS2003-2004
P.J. AxelssonT5, T1743 GP, 14 G, 18 A, 32 PTS2000-2005
Anze KopitarT517 GP, 7 G, 7 A, 14 PTS2005-2008
Dave ChristianT514 GP, 12 G, 6 A, 18 PTS1981-1989
Willy Lindstrom617 GP, 9 G, 6 A, 15 PTS 1974-1975
Radek Dvorak T7, T9, T1035 GP, 9 G, 16 A, 25 PTS 1999-2005
Marian StastnyT7, T1141 GP, 16 G, 22 A, 38 PTS1975-1979
Vincent LukacT735 GP, 13 G, 9 A, 22 PTS1977-1985
Pierre LaroucheT710 GP, 7 G, 8 A, 15 PTS1977-1977
Mikael RenbergT8, T8, T1536 GP, 15 G, 13 A, 28 PTS1993-2003
Mikko KoivuT8, T10, T14,46 GP, 13 G, 23 A, 36 PTS2006-2012
Ulf Dahlen T8, T13, T1835 GP, 15 G, 9 A, 24 PTS1989-2002
Bohuslav Stastny8, T15, T15, T2060 GP, 31 G, 19 A, 50 PTS1971-1976
Cory StillmanT910 GP, 4 G, 4 A, 8 PTS1999-1999
Viktor Zhlukhov T10, T1619 GP, 10 G, 11 A, 21 PTS 1976-1977
Thomas VanekT1012 GP, 3 G, 8 A, 11 PTS2004-2009
Patrik SundstromT1118 GP, 9 G, 2 A, 11 PTS1981-1982
Aleksandr KozhevnikovT1110 GP, 6 G, 1 A, 7PTS1982-1982
Johan FranzenT1220 GP, 5 G, 8 A, 13 PTS2005-2012
Dustin BrownT14, T17, T1832 GP, 14 G, 14 A, 28 PTS2004-2009
Niklas SundstromT16, T1818 GP, 6 G, 7 A, 13 PTS1998-1999
Alexei ZhamnovT1621 GP, 4 G, 6 A, 10 PTS1991-2000
Tony GranatoT1626 GP, 8 G, 12 A, 20 PTS1985-1987
Ulf NilssonT1711 GP, 6 G, 3 A, 9 PTS1973-1974
Rob NiedermayerT1719 GP, 4 G, 5 A, 9 PTS1999-2004
Geoff SandersonT18, T2027 GP, 10 G, 7 A, 17 PTS1993-1997
Steve ThomasT1829 GP, 10 G, 13 A, 23 PTS1991-1996
Anton StastnyT208 GP, 5 G, 1 A, 6 PTS1979-1979
Zach PariseT2011 GP, 5 G, 5 A, 10 PTS2005-2008

Best Forward Winners
Sven Tumba x2 ('57, '62)
Alexei Morozov ('07)
Sami Kapanen ('01)
Miroslav Satan ('00)
Michael Nylander ('97)
Valeri Kamensky ('91)
Brian Bellows ('89)
Jiri Lala ('83)
Ulf Sterner ('69)
Nils Nilsson ('60)
Charlie Burns ('58)

All-Star Team Recipients
Ulf Sterner x2 ('69, '62)
Alexei Morozov ('07)
Miroslav Satan ('02)
Michael Nylander ('97)
Mikael Renberg ('93)
Ulf Dahlen ('93)
Valeri Kamensky ('91)
Andrei Khomutov ('90)
Vyacheslav Bykov ('89)
Nils Nilsson ('62)

What it all means?
**** you Miro Satan, certainly the best WC record of any MLDer. I think Jiri Lala, Erich Kuhnhackl, Michael Nylander, and Slava Bykov round out the top 5 WC performers. Then players with two really good years stand out like Andrei Khomutov, Nikolai Drozdetsky, Valery Kamensky, and even Bellows despite playing under 30 games at this level. After that it's a bit of a crapshoot with the award winners really standing out for being the best that's left.
Keep in mind that before the fall of the Iron Curtain, there was quite a bit more competition for scoring finishes in the WCs than when Satan played. Not just that every Soviet and Czechoslovak was available, but their national programs got a lot of state funding so the talent pool seems to have been better. WCs were also the highest and most prestigious level of hockey available to Europeans then in non-Olmypic years. Now, even some Europeans (Lidstrom for example) seem to view them as a kind of loser's tournament

As for the earlier stats, use SIHR if you have an account. If not, have you tried eliteprospects? Not sure if their database goes back that far

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08-21-2012, 06:27 PM
  #284
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Keep in mind that before the fall of the Iron Curtain, there was quite a bit more competition for scoring finishes in the WCs than when Satan played. Not just that every Soviet and Czechoslovak was available, but their national programs got a lot of state funding so the talent pool seems to have been better. WCs were also the highest and most prestigious level of hockey available to Europeans then in non-Olmypic years. Now, even some Europeans (Lidstrom for example) seem to view them as a kind of loser's tournament

As for the earlier stats, use SIHR if you have an account. If not, have you tried eliteprospects? Not sure if their database goes back that far
yeah, this is nice, but you almost have to do it in two phases... post-95 and pre-95. or somewhere around there.

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08-21-2012, 07:40 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Keep in mind that before the fall of the Iron Curtain, there was quite a bit more competition for scoring finishes in the WCs than when Satan played. Not just that every Soviet and Czechoslovak was available, but their national programs got a lot of state funding so the talent pool seems to have been better. WCs were also the highest and most prestigious level of hockey available to Europeans then in non-Olmypic years. Now, even some Europeans (Lidstrom for example) seem to view them as a kind of loser's tournament

As for the earlier stats, use SIHR if you have an account. If not, have you tried eliteprospects? Not sure if their database goes back that far
I was planning on posting them using the figures from eliteprospects, but if you look at the years for the players I omitted there's a lot of missing players. It seems they don't have the records of all the Canadian amateurs so I'm not sure how legitimate the placements they have are. Using Wikipedia to see the GF-GA off all the countries per tournament you can see there's a substantial number of Canadian scoring unaccounted for so that's why I held off.

Also regarding the differences in quality over time, I already noted the years so I can easily split it up. I'll try to see what division would make sense.

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08-21-2012, 07:54 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Keep in mind that before the fall of the Iron Curtain, there was quite a bit more competition for scoring finishes in the WCs than when Satan played. Not just that every Soviet and Czechoslovak was available, but their national programs got a lot of state funding so the talent pool seems to have been better. WCs were also the highest and most prestigious level of hockey available to Europeans then in non-Olmypic years. Now, even some Europeans (Lidstrom for example) seem to view them as a kind of loser's tournament

As for the earlier stats, use SIHR if you have an account. If not, have you tried eliteprospects? Not sure if their database goes back that far
I think it would be better if world champions became an amateur event while they keep the olympics pro format.

Canada and US sends their kids and players playing in europe. I think this would be better for the countries in europe developing hockey right now as there would be a bit bigger chance for teams like Norway and Denmark to compete which would have their fans coming to the games which in the long term would bring in more money for their hockey development.

Then we would only see the pros every fourth year (unless they decide to bring back Canada Cup).

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08-21-2012, 09:20 PM
  #287
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Line-ups posted on thread but not reviewed yet:

Chicago Blaze
Montreal Maroons
Pittsburgh Duquesne
Connecticut Whale
Medicine Hat Tricks (was self-reviewed)


Assassinations received:

Regina Capitals (1/2)
Brynäs IF
Sherbrooke Castors
Winnipeg Monarchs
Raleigh Icecaps
Winston-Salem Polar Twins
Yarmouth Mariners (2)
Zambia Mania (2)
Montreal Orfuns (3)

Assassinations given:

BillyShoe1721 (4)
tony d (3)
TheDevilMadeMe (2)
VanIslander
Dave G
Dreakmur
Canadiens1952 (1/2)


Last edited by VanIslander: 08-21-2012 at 09:29 PM.
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Old
08-21-2012, 09:43 PM
  #288
Canadiens1958
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Quality Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Brynäs IF

Coach: Tommy Sandlin
Captain: Sven Tumba
Ass. Captains: Ulf Dahlen and Rolle Stoltz

Uffe Sterner - Sven Tumba - Mikael Renberg
Jörgen Pettersson - Niklas Bäckström - Ulf Dahlen
P.J. Axelsson - Thomas Gradin - Niklas Sundström
Johan Franzén - Nisse Nilsson - Ronald Pettersson
Sune Almqvist, Willy Lindström

Lasse Björn - Rolle Stoltz
Kim Johnsson - Niklas Kronwall
Marcus Ragnarsson - Alexander Edler
Axel Nilsson, Tobias Enström

Pelle Lindbergh
Leif "Honken" Holmqvist

PP1

Sterner - Tumba - Renberg
Björn - Stoltz

PP2

Pettersson - Bäckström - Dahlen
Edler - Kronwall

PK1

Gradin - Sundström
Johnsson - Ragnarsson

PK2

Sterner - Axelsson
Stoltz - Björn
Quality team. Excellent down the middle, solid on defense and in goal. Well structured lines and pairings. A top level puck moving defenseman would have made the team a stronger threat especially on the PP. Not sold on the idea of taking forwards from three lines for the PK units is optimal for the post PK shift.

Coaching is strong but an assistant with diversity in his background would have made playing the team more challenging.

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08-21-2012, 10:01 PM
  #289
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Good Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
MONTREAL MAROONS


Randy Carlyle

Zach Parise - Syl Apps Jr. - Jiri Lala
Alex Tanguay - Dave Gagner - Joe Carveth
Shawn Burr - Mike Ricci - Grant Warwick
Carl Liscombe - Mike Fisher - Mike Grier
Mark Napier - Oren Frood

Pekka Rautakallio - Jay Bouwmeester
Uwe Krupp - Darryl Sydor
Doug Crossman - Baldy Spittal
Marek Zidlicky

Jean-Sébastien Giguère
Dwayne Roloson
Jose Theodore
Good Team

Offense
Lack of size up front may be a factor. Finding a spot for Mark Napier would boost the offence, Solid down the middle. PP dmen may be a little weak, slowing down the execution.

Defense.
Solid but Bouwmeester is the only one who can generate offense regularly. PK units not listed but with the forward and dmen should be solid,

Goaltending is modern but lakes variety. European offenses or those with east west movement will give all three problems.

Coaching. Carlyle is a good coach at this level but he likes teams with more sandpaper. See his SC team.

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08-21-2012, 10:02 PM
  #290
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post


18 Craig Simpson - 4 André Lacroix - 9 Allan "Scotty" Davidson (C)
19 George Richardson - 7 Normie Himes - 23 Brian Bellows
10 Jack McDonald - 13 Lorne Campbell - 17 Cecil Blachford
14 Gaétan Duchesne - 12 Ted Hampson (A) - 16 Rich Preston
15 Cully Dahlstrom - 24 Arthur Farrell

29 Kenny Jönsson (A) - 2 Anders Eldebrink
26 Dave Maloney - 8 Willie Mitchell
6 James Stewart - 27 Fredrik Olausson
3 Eric Brewer - 5 Jack Ruttan

1 Billy Nicholson
37 TomᚠVokoun

Coach: Pete Muldoon

PP1: Craig Simpson - André Lacroix - Scotty Davidson - Anders Eldebrink - Fredrik Olausson
PP2: George Richardson/Jack McDonald - Normie Himes - Brian Bellows - Dave Maloney - Kenny Jönsson
PK1: Ted Hampson - Rich Preston - Willie Mitchell - James Stewart
PK2: Cecil Blachford - Gaetan Duchesne - Dave Maloney - Kenny Jonsson

Forwards

The first line works fairly well. I like Lacroix as a player, and value his accomplishments in the WHA a bit more than most probably do. Simpson is a goalscorer that should be Lacroix's main target, but his offense seems underwhelming for a first line. He had one big season where he was 2nd in goals, but then broke 30 goals just twice more in his career during a very high scoring era. Scotty Davidson works as a glue guy to provide grit and two-way play, but his offense is quite pedestrian. One can only wonder what he would have been capable of if he didn't leave for the war. Combine that with Simpson's offense on the other wing, I think this first line is lacking offensive punch because of weakness on the wings. On the second line, it's tough to get a read on George Richardson. He seemed fast, but played in two leagues with few comparable players. I guess he can survive here because he's next to two solid players in Himes and Bellows. They should be a very solid tandem for your 2nd line. The line is lacking in defensive ability though. I'm not sure what the role of the 3rd line is here. McDonald looks like an average at best scorer(6th in the PCHA in goals out of 12 forwards isn't impressive if you ask me). Campbell has some good anecdotes and was a star in some lesser leagues, and Blachford is a decent defensive player with little offense. Your 4th line is my favorite line. This is certainly your shutdown line, and they should do a very good job at that. Overall, this is a rather odd group of forwards.

Defense

The two Swedes are a solid pairing. Jonsson was not flashy, but got the job done effectively. Eldebrink appears to have been a bit flashier and better offensively. The second pairing is another good, but not great combination. Maloney provides a little bit of everything, and Mitchell is a very solid defensive defenseman. Stewart is an interesting pick, and is very hard to get a good read on. Either way, it seems like his skillset should allow Olausson to do his thing offensively.

Goalies

This is definitely the strongest portion of your team. A strong starter, and a strong backup.

Special Teams

The first PP unit has the right parts, but as I said earlier, I think it's lacking punch on the wings. The second unit looks good, but Richardson/McDonald seem like a bit of a weak link on a PP. 3/4 of the first PK unit looks good, but I'm not sure how much I would trust Stewart here. I'd prefer someone with more substantiated defensive ability than Blachford on your PK. He has those Retro Selkes, but what else?

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08-21-2012, 10:06 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Defense.
Solid but Bouwmeester is the only one who can generate offense regularly. PK units not listed but with the forward and dmen should be solid,
Bouwmeester can generate offense, but Darryl Sydor can't? Sydor's career adjusted PPG is .424 over 1,291 games and Bouwmeester's is .416 over 717 games.

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08-21-2012, 10:20 PM
  #292
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Interesting team

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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Pittsburgh Duquesne

Coach: Alain Vigneault

Valery Kamensky-Slava Bykov (A)-Andrei Khomutov
Butch Keeling-Billy Breen-Real Cloutier
Don Grosso-Mikko Koivu-Bill Fairbairn
Martin Gelinas-Michal Pivonka-Jimmy Herbert
Paul Holmgren, Glen Murray

Doug Jarrett-Weldy Young (C)
Marty Burke-Mike O'Connell
Karel Gut (A)-Allan Shields
Stewart Evans, Tom Bladon

Marty Turco
Dan Bouchard

PP 1: Kamensky-Bykov-Khomutov-Young-O'Connell
PP 2: Keeling-Breen-Cloutier-Gut-Jarrett

PK 1: Koivu-Fairbairn-Jarrett-Shields
PK 2: Pivonka-Grosso-Burke-O'Connell
Extras: Gelinas, Young
Coaching

This is the major issue. The team just not look like an Alain Vigneault type team. He micromanages a team. Doubt that this works well with a creative Russian first unit forward line. Also you have four very similar defencemen - Jarret,Burke,Shields, Evans. Solid group but not the variety Vigneault likes to micromanage.

Offence is there, put Koivu with Cloutier and you have two solid lines. Tom Bladon is wasted if not on a PP.

Defence is there from the forwards if properly matched with defenmen pairings and left to play. PK is solid.

Goalies. Two solid and complimentary goaltenders.

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08-21-2012, 10:35 PM
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Coaching

This is the major issue. The team just not look like an Alain Vigneault type team. He micromanages a team. Doubt that this works well with a creative Russian first unit forward line. Also you have four very similar defencemen - Jarret,Burke,Shields, Evans. Solid group but not the variety Vigneault likes to micromanage.

Offence is there, put Koivu with Cloutier and you have two solid lines. Tom Bladon is wasted if not on a PP.

Defence is there from the forwards if properly matched with defenmen pairings and left to play. PK is solid.

Goalies. Two solid and complimentary goaltenders.
Yeah Bladon is the 8th DMan. He'll be playing the PP when he's in there but he's not dressing every game.

I think this team honestly looks EXACTLY like a Vigneault forward group, especially in Vancouver. That top line isn't exactly a free-wheeling Russian line. They rely heavily on the chemistry that they have together (Bykov and Khomutov in the Sedin roles here, as they were actually said to intuitively KNOW where the other was going to be to pass him the puck. Of course they won't be running the Sedin cycle game, but it still isn't necesssarily the free-wheeling you expect from Russians). His micromanaging here with this forward unit will be a bonus. His micromanaging of face-off zone starts will absolutely be used here, with the top two lines receiving the offensive zone starts that he is so known for using with the Sedins, and either line in the bottom 6 being able to get the defensive zone draws.

Why would I not keep Breen with Cloutier? They're both complete offensive players who can pass and shoot. Koivu is a good playmaker for Cloutier, but his offense just doesn't stand up to Breen's.

And yeah, we have three very similar defensemen who will dress together. Evans is the 7th DMan, and we took him because of his similarity to those who could replace. If a 7th DMan is more similar to those he is replacing, it is easier to be successful. We have the offensive defenseman in O'Connell and Gut, the defensive defenseman in the three that you've mentioned already, and then Young who was strong at both rushing the puck and playing defensively. I think we certainly have a very varied D corps. Plus we have an offensive guy in Bladon on the bench, and a defensive guy in Evans who will be able to replace the other defensive guys.

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08-21-2012, 10:46 PM
  #294
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Seriously.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Bouwmeester can generate offense, but Darryl Sydor can't? Sydor's career adjusted PPG is .424 over 1,291 games and Bouwmeester's is .416 over 717 games.
Sydor played the majority of his career with Gretzky and Modano plus solid offensive support defensemen. Once he left Dallas he was below average with Columbus even Pittsburgh with Crosby, Malkin in the line-up.

Bouwmeester never played with an offensive center of the caliber of a Gretzky or Modano. Olli Jokinen is many levels below Gretzky and Modano.

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08-21-2012, 11:03 PM
  #295
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Exactly

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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yeah Bladon is the 8th DMan. He'll be playing the PP when he's in there but he's not dressing every game.

I think this team honestly looks EXACTLY like a Vigneault forward group, especially in Vancouver. That top line isn't exactly a free-wheeling Russian line. They rely heavily on the chemistry that they have together (Bykov and Khomutov in the Sedin roles here, as they were actually said to intuitively KNOW where the other was going to be to pass him the puck. Of course they won't be running the Sedin cycle game, but it still isn't necesssarily the free-wheeling you expect from Russians). His micromanaging here with this forward unit will be a bonus. His micromanaging of face-off zone starts will absolutely be used here, with the top two lines receiving the offensive zone starts that he is so known for using with the Sedins, and either line in the bottom 6 being able to get the defensive zone draws.

Why would I not keep Breen with Cloutier? They're both complete offensive players who can pass and shoot. Koivu is a good playmaker for Cloutier, but his offense just doesn't stand up to Breen's.

And yeah, we have three very similar defensemen who will dress together. Evans is the 7th DMan, and we took him because of his similarity to those who could replace. If a 7th DMan is more similar to those he is replacing, it is easier to be successful. We have the offensive defenseman in O'Connell and Gut, the defensive defenseman in the three that you've mentioned already, and then Young who was strong at both rushing the puck and playing defensively. I think we certainly have a very varied D corps. Plus we have an offensive guy in Bladon on the bench, and a defensive guy in Evans who will be able to replace the other defensive guys.
So which Russian forward plays the Alex Burrows role? Major problem right there. The micromanaging interrupts flow and chemistry while taking away the lines strength of stretching the ice.

Breen with Cloutier. Similar to a lite version of Hull and Esposito. One will always be shorted on scoring chances. Cloutier needed a playmaking center with size. Koivu fits the bill. Goal scoring centers need wingers who can do the corner work, play defense.

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08-21-2012, 11:13 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
So which Russian forward plays the Alex Burrows role? Major problem right there. The micromanaging interrupts flow and chemistry while taking away the lines strength of stretching the ice.

Breen with Cloutier. Similar to a lite version of Hull and Esposito. One will always be shorted on scoring chances. Cloutier needed a playmaking center with size. Koivu fits the bill. Goal scoring centers need wingers who can do the corner work, play defense.
Kamensky when he played on that line was basically a physical torpedo according to Kings of Ice, so glancing at bios would be a bonus. So he will have no issue playing a Burrows role sometimes if that's what Vigneault requires according to you. Plus you do know that Tikhonov was crazy right? Like he was pretty much a dictator as a head coach who micromanaged his players' LIVES let alone their ice hockey. If they could play and blossom with Tik, they're going to be fine with Vigneault.

And about the Esposito-Hull combo, you do know that they were both successful in this combination right? Like, Esposito was 22 and finished 11th in assists, and Hull finished 12th in assists in 1965. And then Hull finished top 5 in assists in 1966. I understand what you're saying, but playmaking will happen. Both Breen and Cloutier were fine passers.

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08-21-2012, 11:16 PM
  #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vecens24
Why would I not keep Breen with Cloutier? They're both complete offensive players who can pass and shoot. Koivu is a good playmaker for Cloutier, but his offense just doesn't stand up to Breen's.
Can you provide documentation that Breen is a complete offensive player and not just a goal scorer?

I was going to address this point when assassinating your team

When I had McGimsie, I was careful to find quotes about his passing

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08-21-2012, 11:19 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Can you provide documentation that Breen is a complete offensive player and not just a goal scorer?

I was going to address this point when assassinating your team
I have no evidence outside of what Iain Fyffe told me in a PM. I can show you that part of the PM here (actually ended up being the full PM lol):

Quote:
I do plan on having a profile on Breen at my site at some point. I just have to put the info together.

My impression is that he was a very good playmaker, but not really a checker. I will have to go through my sources of course.
I assume Iain knows him better than any of us do as he has looked over material that we just don't have access to (also, Iain is a western Canadian guy I believe so he probably WOULD have access to older newspapers we don't have). It's at least SOMETHING to show about Breen's playmaking. I'm not even calling him a very good playmaker at the moment until I see further. I'm simply saying basically that he is a fine passer.


Last edited by vecens24: 08-21-2012 at 11:26 PM.
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08-21-2012, 11:29 PM
  #299
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Its so strange to me to see Kamensky referred to as a physical player in the USSR because I don't think he was at all with the Avs

But that does seem like his reputation at that point in his career

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08-21-2012, 11:32 PM
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I have no evidence outside of what Iain Fyffe told me in a PM. I can show you that part of the PM here (actually ended up being the full PM lol):



I assume Iain knows him better than any of us do as he has looked over material that we just don't have access to (also, Iain is a western Canadian guy I believe so he probably WOULD have access to older newspapers we don't have). It's at least SOMETHING to show about Breen's playmaking. I'm not even calling him a very good playmaker at the moment until I see further. I'm simply saying basically that he is a fine passer.
Iain's from Nova Scotia.

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