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The MLD 2012 Assassination Thread

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Old
08-19-2012, 11:40 PM
  #201
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
- Stu Barnes and Colin Patterson will man the first penalty killing unit, respectively they killed 30% and 44% of their teams penalties.
Barnes was Dallas' #1 PKer every year during Jere Lehtinen's and Mike Modano's primes. That's very impressive.

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08-20-2012, 12:59 AM
  #202
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To add to what Dreakmur said, I'm assuming Green-Streit are going to see the vast majority of PP minutes. Dvorak-Young come out at the very end for cleanup duty, which is nice because our top defensive pair is out there when the PP ends

Neither Green nor Streit has a regular role on the PK, so I think they can handle it. Most top PP defensemen play 75-80% of the PP at their peaks anyway.

I can also see Scott Hannon taking shifts in place of Green when the team is defending a lead (Dvorak-young is the shut down pair but you need to play more than one pair when closing things out).

I see Bun Cook going strength vs strength a lot with the Haynes line against top lines of opponents. On our team, only Vanek, Smith, Wiseman, Maloney (and Zabrodsky if dressed) don't have significant defensive resumes. Either the third or fourth line can be used in a defensive role (Billy Gilmour was an excellent defensive player btw) and Sandford is a pretty good defensive conscience for the 2nd line.

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08-20-2012, 01:03 AM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Either the third or fourth line can be used in a defensive role (Billy Gilmour was an excellent defensive player btw) and Sandford is a pretty good defensive conscience for the 2nd line.
I see one quote about Gilmour back-checking in his bio, but not much else besides that. Is there something else?

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08-20-2012, 01:09 AM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I see one quote about Gilmour back-checking in his bio, but not much else besides that. Is there something else?
Honestly it's not exactly easy to find quotes about guys from the era back checking at all.

What we do know about Gilmour is that he was selected ECHA All Star RW multiple times over guys who were literally doubling him in goal scoring (Harry Hyland And there are quite a few contemporary quotes by people calling him one of the best players of the era... And if you look at his stats, it definitely wasn't because of his goal scoring

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08-20-2012, 06:54 AM
  #205
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Forward Pass

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Honestly it's not exactly easy to find quotes about guys from the era back checking at all.

What we do know about Gilmour is that he was selected ECHA All Star RW multiple times over guys who were literally doubling him in goal scoring (Harry Hyland And there are quite a few contemporary quotes by people calling him one of the best players of the era... And if you look at his stats, it definitely wasn't because of his goal scoring
Pre forward pass - why would you expect to find quotes about back checking? Offensive rush would see the non puck carriers forced to hang back so the defensive player covering them would simply keep pace.

With a lead, teams would keep up to 4 or 5 skaters inside the defensive blueline and simply wait.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-20-2012 at 06:57 AM. Reason: addition
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08-20-2012, 08:37 AM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post

PP1: Thomas Vanek - Paul Haynes - Jimmy Ward - Mark Streit - Mike Green
PP2: Ed Sandford - Donald Smith - Eddie Wiseman - Mark Streit/Miroslav Dvorak - Mike Green/Doug Young

PK1: Todd Marchant - Jimmy Roberts - Walt Buswell - Scott Hannan
PK2: Charlie Sands - Steve Sullivan - Miroslav Dvorak - Doug Young
PK3: Paul Haynes - Jimmy Ward
Another team here that I wish to review:

Line 1:

When I drafted Steve Thomas, Vanek was a name I thought of as well. A solid goal scorer and judging by the past couple seasons he's turning into a playmaker. Could be one of the best 1st line Left Wingers in the draft, solid pick. Paul Haynes should prove to be a great playmaker for Vanek, could be a great combo. Jimmy Ward completes this line. Like Vanek and Haynes he plays a good offensive game and he adds grit as well. The 3 of these guys together should cause a lot of fits for opposing teams, really good 1st line.

Line 2:

Ed Sandford reads as a skilled power forward, something that every team needs, solid pick. Donald Smith looks like quite the player as well, seems to do everything well, great for any hockey team. Eddie Wiseman was another name I looked at possibly drafting in this draft, solid pick. Overall your 2nd line should be tough as nails to play against while playing a good offensive game themselves, solid all around.

Line 3:

Steve Sullivan is another guy I've always liked. Injuries have prevented him from being more than what he is. Like Havlat on my team he's a solid player when healthy, good pick. Sands is a really good 2-way player, he should be able to help Sullivan offensively and protect Sullivan from getting injured. Billy Gilmour should be the goal scorer on this line, he reads as a solid offensive player, good pick.

Line 4:

Dan Maloney should be heck to play against, a perfect fit for any team. A good leader as well, players like Maloney will help you win hockey games, solid pick. Marchant is a good pick but I wonder if the MLD may be to soon for him to be picked. IMO he'd be a solid AAA pick but a MLD guy but it could be just me. I think playing with Maloney should help him a lot. Roberts is a good pick. Reading the bio you did on him it says he helped Bob Gainey with his defensive game. Being that Gainey's perhaps the best defensive forward ever shows a lot about how good Roberts was, solid pick.

Extra Forwards:

Surprised to see Zadrobsky on your bench, I know there was a bit of discussion about him but I think he belongs in your starting lineup, unsure of where given the strength of your team though. I had Wildor Larochelle in the MLD last year, he's a good defensive player and should fit in should there be any injuries to any of your bottom 6. Rob Niedermayer entered my mind to draft for a defensive extra, solid player. Overall these are good extras who should be able to slot into your lineup easily if there are any injuries.

Defensive Pairing 1:

Being that Mike Green has a questionable defensive game you need a good defensive guy to pair with him, Walt Buswell appears to be that guy, really good guy that will let Mike Green do his thing offensively, solid pick. Mike Green's defensive lapses are covered by a really good offensive game. He also has injury issues which I think are hurting the Caps and Alex Ovechkin from taking the next step. Still Green gets on his game he is a dangerous player, solid pick and pairing here.

Defensive Pairing 2:

Dvorak reads as a solid defenseman. Interesting to see him be drafted at 32 and still provide a strong game for the Flyers, solid pick. I think Doug Young will be the offensive guy here which adds more to the pairing as it will help Dvorak play more of a defensive game which he appears best at. Young is a good choice for your team captain.

Defensive Pairing 3:

Much like Green Streit has been one of the top offensive defenseman in the league post-lockout. It's quite possible he may have to slot on your top pairing should Green get injured, I'm sure Streit will relish that opportunity. Scott Hannan was a guy I picked last year, I remember getting praised for the pick and I'll do the same for you guys now. He's a really good defensive defenseman, solid pick.

Extra Defenseman:

Al Hamilton reads as a good 2-way defenseman which should be good should there be any injuries to any of your defensemen, solid pick.

Goaltending:

Moran reads as one of the top early goalies in hockey, I have the Hockey Hall of Fame players guide from a couple years ago and Moran is spoke highly of there, could be 1 of the better goalies in this draft. Reggie Lemelin was a goalie I was hoping would drop to the AAA draft, really solid goalie, a strong backup who is better than a few starters in the league, solid player.

Coaching:

Cook is a good coach, surprised he didn't get a shot in the NHL to be a head coach given his great AHL record. Having a reputation for keeping his players calm and cool should help your team.

Final Thoughts:

This is a well-built team which is the norm for you 2, the best of luck to you both as we get to the voting part of this draft.

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Old
08-20-2012, 10:28 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
When the soviets started to play hockey they were basically at the same level as canadians when they started, correct.
In the Soviet Union there was a centrally conducted and highly elaborated effort to develope and improve "Canadian" style hockey from 1946 on. Within 10 years the Soviets were able to compete with 1950s Senior A level teams. Validly comparable to 19th century Canadian hockey?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Obviously it would be pretty complicated to determine what era each country is in at a certain given time but I feel its something that should atleast be explored.
That notion only works if you compare cultures isolated from each other. Canada was originally isolated because they started playing ice hockey with a puck while everybody else was playing ice hockey with a ball. The Europeans however were under Canadian influence when they adopted the game with the puck, they weren't isolated. See post 180.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
So the scoring exploits of European stars like Bobrov, Zabrodsky in 18-2, type blowouts against weak European opposition should be looked at in the same light as Frank McGee's 14 goal game. Nice curiosity, trivia but not valid indication of talent.
Well, the New York Rangers and Boston Bruins thought it was at least valid enough to go after Zábrodský and Drobný.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Royals and Marlies were Canadien and Leaf farm clubs. Once the graduating NHLers or former NHLers/pros were removed teams were left with very little.

Royals roster:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...007371947.html

Senators roster:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...007391949.html

Flyers roster:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...023811949.html

Marlies roster:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...040741950.html

Re-instated pros helped the 1955 Penticton Vs. Also by the mid 1950s, the 5 game amateur tryout was in place - see Sven Tumba, Quebec 1957-58
I see, very interesting. But it's not like there weren't re-instated pros before 1955. And some cases are still curious: Kitchener-Waterloo not going in 1954 and then going in 1956 for example. Or East York Lyndhursts - Senior B! - going in 1954.
It seems that there was a general lack of appeal. I think once the Montreal Royals were kept out because of the eligibility issue and once the RCAF squad showed that even a weaker team could win the title, the top amateur teams lost interest in the Olympics and the World Championship. A long, expensive trip to a continent where the Canadian style was often bad-mouthed, just to play in a tournament in which not much was at the stake for Canada - not very attractive. It took the Czechoslovak victory in 1949 to generate discussions and the Soviet victory in 1954 to finally change the approach.

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Old
08-20-2012, 10:33 AM
  #208
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In the ATDs the value of a player is determined RELATIVE to ERA, that is, with the same years, against the best of the time.

It makes no sense to compare players a half century apart. If we did that, the strength of today's players and speed of today's game would overwhelm most other eras.

Let's compare the best Soviets of the 1950s with the best players in the world in the 1950s, as a 'WHAT IF' they had played in the NHL, against the best players.

Of course there are more Canadians among the best of the era in the pre-NHL era. That is the nature of the game back then! The best players were from Canada.

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08-20-2012, 11:00 AM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Well, the New York Rangers and Boston Bruins thought it was at least valid enough to go after Zábrodský and Drobný.



I see, very interesting. But it's not like there weren't re-instated pros before 1955. And some cases are still curious: Kitchener-Waterloo not going in 1954 and then going in 1956 for example. Or East York Lyndhursts - Senior B! - going in 1954.
It seems that there was a general lack of appeal. I think once the Montreal Royals were kept out because of the eligibility issue and once the RCAF squad showed that even a weaker team could win the title, the top amateur teams lost interest in the Olympics and the World Championship. A long, expensive trip to a continent where the Canadian style was often bad-mouthed, just to play in a tournament in which not much was at the stake for Canada - not very attractive. It took the Czechoslovak victory in 1949 to generate discussions and the Soviet victory in 1954 to finally change the approach.
You are looking at basic tryout interest with no guarantees. The contra view is that Drobny chose tennis where he had a greater chance of success without having to integrate a team concept.

Canadian Senior hockey at the time was semi-pro, so pros could step back without reinstatement while amateurs could retain amateur status. This changed gradually in the second half of the fifties. Senior A or Senior B was somewhat arbitrary and not uniform across Canada. Just like Junior A or B today with inconsitent levels of play.

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08-20-2012, 11:12 AM
  #210
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Interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
In the ATDs the value of a player is determined RELATIVE to ERA, that is, with the same years, against the best of the time.

It makes no sense to compare players a half century apart. If we did that, the strength of today's players and speed of today's game would overwhelm most other eras.

Let's compare the best Soviets of the 1950s with the best players in the world in the 1950s, as a 'WHAT IF' they had played in the NHL, against the best players.

Of course there are more Canadians among the best of the era in the pre-NHL era. That is the nature of the game back then! The best players were from Canada.
Interesting but why skip the qualifying step of comparing them to their contemporary opposition? Specifically the 1950s Canadiens semi pros and amateurs that the Soviets and other Europeans played against were either levels away from the NHL or past their NHL prime - Sid Smith. If Jean Paul Lamirande, Connie Broden, Charlie Burns, Billy Warwick are giving the European players a hard time, why would anyone expect the same European players to do well against Doug Harvey, Gordie Howe,Jean Beliveau, etc?

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08-20-2012, 11:45 AM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Pre forward pass - why would you expect to find quotes about back checking? Offensive rush would see the non puck carriers forced to hang back so the defensive player covering them would simply keep pace.

With a lead, teams would keep up to 4 or 5 skaters inside the defensive blueline and simply wait.
The now famous Frank Nighbor profile contains 4 specific references to back checking:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...5&postcount=22

Tommy Phillips is the one pre-WW1 guy with lots of refernce to his back checking, though most of it from secondary sources:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...5&postcount=72

An Dreakmur found a single reference to Blair Russel and Billy Gilmour back checking tirelessly:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=31

Poke and hooking checking were more effective before the forward pass, but guys backchecked too


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-20-2012 at 12:15 PM.
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Old
08-20-2012, 11:55 AM
  #212
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Thanks for the review, tonyD. I agree with most of it.

The one thing is Billy Gilmour. It's really hard to get a handle on him, other than the fact that people who played against him thought he was really good. My take is that he was a great stickhandler, really gritty, probably good defensively, probably good at getting the puck to his linemates, but not a great finisher

Marchant was drafted mainly to kill penalties

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08-20-2012, 12:00 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
In the ATDs the value of a player is determined RELATIVE to ERA, that is, with the same years, against the best of the time.
That's not entirely true; if it were, Russell Bowie would have been a first round pick in the main draft. Obviously, the competitiveness of the era is taken into account on some level

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08-20-2012, 12:09 PM
  #214
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Checking Back

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The now famous Frank Nighbor profile contains 4 specific references to back checking:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...5&postcount=22

Tommy Phillips is the one pre-WW1 guy with lots of refernce to his back checking, though most of it from secondary sources: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...5&postcount=22

An Dreakmur found a single reference to Blair Russel and Billy Gilmour back checking tirelessly:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=31

Poke and hooking checking were more effective before the forward pass, but guys backchecked too
Your Phillips link is a repeat of the Nighbor link.

The articles / quotes refer to "Checking back" which is hounding the puck carrier back up the ice as opposed to letting the defensemen worry about the puck carrier.

"Back checking" is playing/covering your checking responsibility back up the ice without the puck making it difficult for the pass to get to him. Without the forward pass this was rather easy plus it was more efficient to simply drop below the blue line as stated in the Nighbor post - 1923 against Edmonton.

Checking back is not back checking.

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08-20-2012, 12:18 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Your Phillips link is a repeat of the Nighbor link.

The articles / quotes refer to "Checking back" which is hounding the puck carrier back up the ice as opposed to letting the defensemen worry about the puck carrier.

"Back checking" is playing/covering your checking responsibility back up the ice without the puck making it difficult for the pass to get to him. Without the forward pass this was rather easy plus it was more efficient to simply drop below the blue line as stated in the Nighbor post - 1923 against Edmonton.

Checking back is not back checking.
Fixed the link to the Phillips profile. The phrase "back checking" is used 4 times in the Nighbor profile and the term "checking back" is used 2 times

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08-20-2012, 12:31 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Interesting but why skip the qualifying step of comparing them to their contemporary opposition? Specifically the 1950s Canadiens semi pros and amateurs that the Soviets and other Europeans played against were either levels away from the NHL or past their NHL prime - Sid Smith. If Jean Paul Lamirande, Connie Broden, Charlie Burns, Billy Warwick are giving the European players a hard time, why would anyone expect the same European players to do well against Doug Harvey, Gordie Howe,Jean Beliveau, etc?
Unfortunately for this point, the competition in the MLD is probably closer to Charlie Burns, Billy Warwick, and a washed up Sid Smith than three top 10 ATDers.

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08-20-2012, 12:50 PM
  #217
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18 Craig Simpson - 4 André Lacroix - 9 Allan "Scotty" Davidson (C)
19 George Richardson - 7 Normie Himes - 23 Brian Bellows
10 Jack McDonald - 13 Lorne Campbell - 17 Cecil Blachford
14 Gaétan Duchesne - 12 Ted Hampson (A) - 16 Rich Preston
15 Cully Dahlstrom - 24 Arthur Farrell

29 Kenny Jönsson (A) - 2 Anders Eldebrink
26 Dave Maloney - 8 Willie Mitchell
6 James Stewart - 27 Fredrik Olausson
3 Eric Brewer - 5 Jack Ruttan

1 Billy Nicholson
37 Tomáš Vokoun

Coach: Pete Muldoon

PP1: Craig Simpson - André Lacroix - Scotty Davidson - Anders Eldebrink - Fredrik Olausson
PP2: George Richardson/Jack McDonald - Normie Himes - Brian Bellows - Dave Maloney - Kenny Jönsson
PK1: Ted Hampson - Rich Preston - Willie Mitchell - James Stewart
PK2: Cecil Blachford - Gaetan Duchesne - Dave Maloney - Kenny Jonsson


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08-20-2012, 12:53 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Barnes was Dallas' #1 PKer every year during Jere Lehtinen's and Mike Modano's primes. That's very impressive.
Impressive considering he was on Florida, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo during Modano's and most of Lehtinen's primes.

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08-20-2012, 12:55 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
EDIT: Sorry, I think I might have goofed on the numbers. #2 gets victimized (Jocelyn Guevremont) - and he logs a lot of time for this team, but he's another guy that I wouldn't trust to protect a 3-goal lead with a minute to go. Holy hell...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Though, I got a lesson on defense from Jocelyn Guevremont that I will never be able to un-see...yikes...
For the sake of defending my player, I want to point out that #2 is not Jocelyn Guevremont. The clip is from 3/16/75, and Guevremont was traded to Buffalo on 10/14/74.

I assume #2 is some minor league callup, since h-r doesn't list a player by that number.

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08-20-2012, 01:54 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
For the sake of defending my player, I want to point out that #2 is not Jocelyn Guevremont. The clip is from 3/16/75, and Guevremont was traded to Buffalo on 10/14/74.

I assume #2 is some minor league callup, since h-r doesn't list a player by that number.
It was the infamous Mike Robitaille. He and Guevremont were traded for each other and Robitaille took his number in Vancouver.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...robitmi01.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/VAN/1975.html

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08-20-2012, 02:48 PM
  #221
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My apologies, he logged a ton of time in that game so I assumed it was Guevremont. Sorry, no deliberate malice intended.

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08-20-2012, 03:00 PM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
My apologies, he logged a ton of time in that game so I assumed it was Guevremont. Sorry, no deliberate malice intended.
No problem I admit I did have a sinking feeling at the thought of Guevremont making a fool of himself on video here.

Just to flesh out the subject a bit, Guevremont was indeed a mediocre defender during his time in Vancouver. It wasn't until he landed in Buffalo that he picked up a defensive game and turned out to be a pretty decent two-way player in addition to utilizing his offensive skill.

I'm sure if we had a lot of early-70s Canucks video, we could find some action of him coasting around his own zone waiting for a turnover.

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08-20-2012, 05:02 PM
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post

Montreal Orfuns
Montreal Orfuns

Coach - Claude Ruel,
Assistant coach Guy Boucher

Goalies:
Jonathan Quick, Carey Price, Eddie Johnston

Defence:
Rick Green, Erik Karlsson
Don Sweeney, Kris Letang
Brad Marsh "C", Sylvain Cote
Charles Tobin,Bob Murray

Forwards:
Geoff Courtnall - Barry Pederson - Billy Harris
Shayne Corson ''A" - Jordan Staal - Russ Courtnall
Danny Grant - Mike Ridley - Claude Larose "A"
Erik Cole - Robert Lang - Modere "Mud" Bruneteau

PP1 - Geoff Courtnall - Barry Pederson - Billy Harris - Bob Murray - Erik Karlsson.
PP2 - Shayne Corson - Jordan Staal - Russ Courtnall - Don Sweeney - Kris Letang

PK1- Barry Pederson, Billy Harris, Brad Marsh,Sylvain Cote.
PK2 - Jordan Staal,Shayne Corson, Rick Green, Bob Murray.

1916 or earlier - Charles Tobin
1917-1942 - Modere Bruneteau
1943-1965 - Claude Larose
1966-1979 - Rick Green
1980-1994 - Shayne Corson
1995-2004 - Erik Cole
2012 - Erik Karlsson

Team has qualified for the playoffs.

Also would like to introduce our mascot and his apprentice.
Forwards

The first line works pretty well. Courtnall provides some physical play and goal-scoring, while Pederson is the main setup man. Harris brings a little two-way play and offense as well. Considering Pederson was mainly a playmaker, as was Harris, I'm not sure Courtnall is a good enough goal-scorer to capitalize on the fact that a lot of pucks will be coming his way. He was also notoriously streaky. I'm not a fan of your 2nd line. I can see Courtnall as a 2nd/3rd best offensive player on a 2nd line, and Corson is okay as a physical presence and defensive conscious if he had two other strong offensive players aside him, but that's not the case. Jordan Staal is the worst 2nd line center in the draft. He is woefully out of place here. This line will be good in its own zone, but will be probably the worst offensively in the draft. Grant is an odd player for a 3rd line. He wasn't the best defensive player early in his career, but improved a bit later on, so he's average at best, probably not even that. Ridley is a good two-way player that's frankly better than Jordan Staal. I'd put him(or even Robert Lang) on your 2nd line. Larose is another good two-way player that fits on your 3rd line. If I were you, I would move Ridley up to the 2nd line center spot in place of Staal, who would move to the 3rd line. Your 2nd line would be better, but still probably sub-par. You've got an nontraditional 4th line, which basically looks like a scoring line. I like the first line, but I would do some tinkering with lines 2 and 3.

Defense

I'm not a fan of Erik Karlsson where you took him. I think he has a place in this draft, but I'm not sure that it's on the first pairing. This is coming from the guy who drafted Doughty after his 2nd season, which looking back on it, was a mistake. Green at least offers the right type of skillset to cover for Karlsson. I'm not sure Green belongs on a top pairing here either. He has an 8th in Norris voting and a 9th in AS voting from the same year, 86-87, but no votes in any other years. Your 2nd pairing is a lot like your first, a very offensive defenseman who has just begun his prime, and a steady stay at home defenseman. Letang has a 6th and 9th in AS voting, which is pretty good. I think Sweeney would be better served as a 3rd pairing defenseman as he was never a big minute muncher for his team. In his best years of usage, he was behind Bourque and ahead of a bunch of nobodies. Your bottom pairing is fine, Cote provides some good offense on the PP and Marsh can cover for him. I have to wonder, what pairing are you going to use in tough situations at the end of games? I'd be hesitant to use any of them. Even if you took Sweeney and Green to make a true stay at home pairing, who do you come out with next? And you haven't posted any of your PP/PK units. I wonder, who is your 4th PK defenseman going to be? I'm guessing it'll be Cote because I definitely wouldn't use Letang or Karlsson on a PK at this level. Safe to say I'm not a fan of your defense.

Goalies

I'm not at all sold on your goaltending. Price has one good year(5th Vezina, 4th AS, 7th Hart). Quick is similar, but had a legendary year last year(2nd Vezina/AS, 5th Hart, Conn Smythe, cup). Basically, Quick has good years to his name, and Price has one. Not good enough for this level. I would be okay with having a guy that had a longer career but shorter peak than Quick as the starter with Quick as the backup. But with Quick as the starter and another young guy backing him up in Price, I'm not at all sold on your goaltending.

Coaching

Since you claimed to have the best coaching staff in the MLD, I'll include a section on it here, even though I usually don't. I'm wondering why you think they're the best in the MLD. Ruel won a cup on a stacked team, but doesn't offer anything else besides that in terms of strategy, system, or tactics. He had a stacked roster for 5 years, but won just 4 rounds in the playoffs. Boucher has knowledge of a unique system, but has just 2 seasons under his belt, and hasn't won anything.

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08-20-2012, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
In the ATDs the value of a player is determined RELATIVE to ERA, that is, with the same years, against the best of the time.

It makes no sense to compare players a half century apart. If we did that, the strength of today's players and speed of today's game would overwhelm most other eras.

Let's compare the best Soviets of the 1950s with the best players in the world in the 1950s, as a 'WHAT IF' they had played in the NHL, against the best players.

Of course there are more Canadians among the best of the era in the pre-NHL era. That is the nature of the game back then! The best players were from Canada.
I dont think you understand fully about what people are talking about. Modern players are obviously not behind in training or anything like that. With the further modernization of hockey Europe caught up and pretty quick too. In the 60-70 the gaps between average players werent large.

We are talking about the earlier players. Europes pioneers and canadas blacks who werent allowed to play with whites. Should they really be compared to players who have decades of hockey development behind them or should they actually be compared canadas own pioneers. Obviously if we do the latter and it turns out that someone highly regarded in canadian hockey doesnt fare very well in cross era comparisons there will be chaos.

Pre-merger players. What is there such a big value on them in the ATD? When the value of the same types of players who did the same damn thing but in europe is very low?

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08-20-2012, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Forwards

The first line works pretty well. Courtnall provides some physical play and goal-scoring, while Pederson is the main setup man. Harris brings a little two-way play and offense as well. Considering Pederson was mainly a playmaker, as was Harris, I'm not sure Courtnall is a good enough goal-scorer to capitalize on the fact that a lot of pucks will be coming his way. He was also notoriously streaky. I'm not a fan of your 2nd line. I can see Courtnall as a 2nd/3rd best offensive player on a 2nd line, and Corson is okay as a physical presence and defensive conscious if he had two other strong offensive players aside him, but that's not the case. Jordan Staal is the worst 2nd line center in the draft. He is woefully out of place here. This line will be good in its own zone, but will be probably the worst offensively in the draft. Grant is an odd player for a 3rd line. He wasn't the best defensive player early in his career, but improved a bit later on, so he's average at best, probably not even that. Ridley is a good two-way player that's frankly better than Jordan Staal. I'd put him(or even Robert Lang) on your 2nd line. Larose is another good two-way player that fits on your 3rd line. If I were you, I would move Ridley up to the 2nd line center spot in place of Staal, who would move to the 3rd line. Your 2nd line would be better, but still probably sub-par. You've got an nontraditional 4th line, which basically looks like a scoring line. I like the first line, but I would do some tinkering with lines 2 and 3.

Defense

I'm not a fan of Erik Karlsson where you took him. I think he has a place in this draft, but I'm not sure that it's on the first pairing. This is coming from the guy who drafted Doughty after his 2nd season, which looking back on it, was a mistake. Green at least offers the right type of skillset to cover for Karlsson. I'm not sure Green belongs on a top pairing here either. He has an 8th in Norris voting and a 9th in AS voting from the same year, 86-87, but no votes in any other years. Your 2nd pairing is a lot like your first, a very offensive defenseman who has just begun his prime, and a steady stay at home defenseman. Letang has a 6th and 9th in AS voting, which is pretty good. I think Sweeney would be better served as a 3rd pairing defenseman as he was never a big minute muncher for his team. In his best years of usage, he was behind Bourque and ahead of a bunch of nobodies. Your bottom pairing is fine, Cote provides some good offense on the PP and Marsh can cover for him. I have to wonder, what pairing are you going to use in tough situations at the end of games? I'd be hesitant to use any of them. Even if you took Sweeney and Green to make a true stay at home pairing, who do you come out with next? And you haven't posted any of your PP/PK units. I wonder, who is your 4th PK defenseman going to be? I'm guessing it'll be Cote because I definitely wouldn't use Letang or Karlsson on a PK at this level. Safe to say I'm not a fan of your defense.

Goalies

I'm not at all sold on your goaltending. Price has one good year(5th Vezina, 4th AS, 7th Hart). Quick is similar, but had a legendary year last year(2nd Vezina/AS, 5th Hart, Conn Smythe, cup). Basically, Quick has good years to his name, and Price has one. Not good enough for this level. I would be okay with having a guy that had a longer career but shorter peak than Quick as the starter with Quick as the backup. But with Quick as the starter and another young guy backing him up in Price, I'm not at all sold on your goaltending.

Coaching

Since you claimed to have the best coaching staff in the MLD, I'll include a section on it here, even though I usually don't. I'm wondering why you think they're the best in the MLD. Ruel won a cup on a stacked team, but doesn't offer anything else besides that in terms of strategy, system, or tactics. He had a stacked roster for 5 years, but won just 4 rounds in the playoffs. Boucher has knowledge of a unique system, but has just 2 seasons under his belt, and hasn't won anything.
Interesting comments but not grounded in facts.

Barry Pederson is more than a playmaker. Consecutive seasons of 44/46/39 goals before health issues show that he could score as well.

Jordan Staal. Never had long term linemates the quality of Corson and Russ Courtnall. No speed on the RW or toughness.

Mike Ridley centers Grant and Larose who formed a first line in Minnesota centered by Danny O'Shea. Ridley is a major upgrade.

Fourth line is a change of pace line offering flexibility and support for the other lines.

Defensemen. Not counting Charles Tobin who played D/F the 7 defensemen total 5791 regular and 587 playoff NHL games.Sweeney, Cote, Marsh and Murray all topped 1000 regular season games. Regardless how you spin it they could/can play.

Goalies. Bolded countered by the fact that such a goalie was not available. So then you are left with choosing between my pair + Eddie Johnston or the likes of Vokoun, Ward, Halak, Anderson.

PP/PK units appear clearly in the team roster you quote so .....

Coaching. Hardest thing to do is take over a SC championship as a rookie coach and repeat. Ruel accomplished this as a 30 year old NHL coach without the benefit of assistants. Now he has an assistant with excellent complimentary knowledge and abilities.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-20-2012 at 06:54 PM. Reason: wording
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