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Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XVII

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Old
08-15-2012, 10:04 AM
  #26
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Is this Ray from Lynn? No offense to you, I certainly appreciate your passion, but I'm sure you can understand why someone would be hesitant to take your opinion on this stuff over say Keith Law, Baseball America, etc. Hey, I hope you're right because an infusion of new young talent is exactly what we need going forward.
Ill go with Keith Law who had the Rays and Blue jays 2/3 to start the season. I don't watch other teams prospects so ill have to defer to Law etc.

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08-15-2012, 10:08 AM
  #27
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Ill go with Keith Law who had the Rays and Blue jays 2/3 to start the season. I don't watch other teams prospects so ill have to defer to Law etc.
Right, that's basically how I feel. I never see any of these prospects play--even our guys, nevermind other teams' players.

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08-15-2012, 10:48 AM
  #28
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Pedroia's reaction to Francona's firing reminds me of Joe Thornton's reaction when Goring was fired. Both of them had never known another boss at the major league level and got to thinking that the way things were were the way things were supposed to be at that level forever. Both got a rude awakening when the new guy took over.

I can't recall if Thornton got involved in a media circus the way Pedroia seems to have done. Stupid move on Dustin's part IMO because he comes out looking like a whining spoiled brat even if he does have legitimate grievances.

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08-15-2012, 11:06 AM
  #29
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Maybe the biggest problem I have in all of this is that there's been no indication/report of a player/players privately going to Valentine to discuss these issues. Bypassing Valentine and going straight to upper management/ownership is not the way to handle things IMO.

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08-15-2012, 11:12 AM
  #30
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Maybe the biggest problem I have in all of this is that there's been no indication/report of a player/players privately going to Valentine to discuss these issues. Bypassing Valentine and going straight to upper management/ownership is not the way to handle things IMO.
Or the "sources" could be in upper management so they only know of when the players come to their offices with an issue. They wouldn't be aware of any conversations with Bobby and the players

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08-15-2012, 11:43 AM
  #31
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Maybe the biggest problem I have in all of this is that there's been no indication/report of a player/players privately going to Valentine to discuss these issues. Bypassing Valentine and going straight to upper management/ownership is not the way to handle things IMO.
1. I doubt you'd ever hear publicly about players going to managers privately. Though the caveat is that Valentine can't keep his mouth shut, so he might just come out and say it, but if he took his meds that day he'd know better not to.

2. Didn't Pedroia come out last night and say he went to Bobby and they talked?

3. If the issue is with the manager and the manager is in so far over his head and commands so little respect, aren't you obligated to go over his head?

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08-15-2012, 11:56 AM
  #32
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Ill go with Keith Law who had the Rays and Blue jays 2/3 to start the season. I don't watch other teams prospects so ill have to defer to Law etc.
To start the season is the key word right there. I am talking about going into next year. Most of our top prospects put themselves on the map this year (JBJ, Barnes, Bogaerts, etc)

We are definitely a better system than Tampa. Moore is not a prospect anymore. Toronto is a bit closer (with D'Arnaud and Gose in particular), but still, I would rather have the Sox grouping of prospects.

Yankees system is trash. Banuelos and Betances have regressed this year. Romine has been hurt. The only real guy they have is Gary Sanchez.

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08-15-2012, 12:08 PM
  #33
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1. I doubt you'd ever hear publicly about players going to managers privately. Though the caveat is that Valentine can't keep his mouth shut, so he might just come out and say it, but if he took his meds that day he'd know better not to.

2. Didn't Pedroia come out last night and say he went to Bobby and they talked?

3. If the issue is with the manager and the manager is in so far over his head and commands so little respect, aren't you obligated to go over his head?
1. Why not? If we hear about everything else that happens with this team, I don't know how we wouldn't know if a player or players went to Valentine. Certainly seems reasonable to me. There are obviously enough big mouths involved, including Valentine, for that to get out. Or for some other player to see it happen and spill the beans. God knows nothing can stay in the clubhouse with this organization. Look, I'm done arguing about Valentine with you. You're entitled to your opinion. You're making it seem like I'm a staunch Valentine defender when I feel like I've made it clear that I am simply anti-these players regardless of who the manager is. I've never said Valentine is a great manager, etc. I just refuse to pile on him when I feel he's done an OK job this year and these players pulled the same crap a year ago with a different manager. You don't like Valentine and don't think he's a good manager. I get it.

2. I'm talking about earlier in the season, not just after this Passan article got out.

3. No. Plus, again, the manager being "so far in over his head" is subjective anyway.

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08-15-2012, 12:10 PM
  #34
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To start the season is the key word right there. I am talking about going into next year. Most of our top prospects put themselves on the map this year (JBJ, Barnes, Bogaerts, etc)

We are definitely a better system than Tampa. Moore is not a prospect anymore. Toronto is a bit closer (with D'Arnaud and Gose in particular), but still, I would rather have the Sox grouping of prospects.

Yankees system is trash. Banuelos and Betances have regressed this year. Romine has been hurt. The only real guy they have is Gary Sanchez.
I used that list because the only mid season ranking i saw had Ranaudo as the sox top prospect and i want going to look anymore after i saw that.

I think you're overrating the Sox prospects a little

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08-15-2012, 12:23 PM
  #35
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1. Why not? If we hear about everything else that happens with this team, I don't know how we wouldn't know if a player or players went to Valentine. Certainly seems reasonable to me. There are obviously enough big mouths involved, including Valentine, for that to get out. Or for some other player to see it happen and spill the beans. God knows nothing can stay in the clubhouse with this organization. Look, I'm done arguing about Valentine with you. You're entitled to your opinion. You're making it seem like I'm a staunch Valentine defender when I feel like I've made it clear that I am simply anti-these players regardless of who the manager is. I've never said Valentine is a great manager, etc. I just refuse to pile on him when I feel he's done an OK job this year and these players pulled the same crap a year ago with a different manager. You don't like Valentine and don't think he's a good manager. I get it.

2. I'm talking about earlier in the season, not just after this Passan article got out.

3. No. Plus, again, the manager being "so far in over his head" is subjective anyway.
This is one of those rare instances in sports debates where one party, in this case me, can remain confident that despite how much you might defend your side and your guy, it doesn't really matter. Subjective, objective, whatever. He's just not going to be around here very long. Now you can call that hunch "subjective" too if you want, but why don't we just agree to revisit this in October then?

I claim he was a sham hire and in way over his head. You like him and think he's qualified. One of us might be right, but more importantly, it might be irrelevant very, very soon.

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08-15-2012, 12:24 PM
  #36
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http://www.boston.com/sports/columni...c:on:twit:eric

Enablers are at the heart of the problems with the Red Sox

Print | Comments (45) Posted by Eric Wilbur, Boston.com Staff August 15, 2012 08:43 AM .This is going to get hostile, so the gumdrop and lollipop crowd may want to look away.

At this point with the Red Sox, I don't even know who to take at his or her genuine word. It is a team, a franchise, and a media corps infected with enablers and hypocrites. What's left to root for is a despicable team that has failed to learn even one iota of a lesson from last season's failure. They got one guy fired, now they want the next guy gone, refusing to even take a sniff of a glance in the mirror to discover the true problem.

So, what did we ultimately learn from Jeff Passan's bomb-dropping piece on Yahoo! Tuesday? The Red Sox clubhouse is a chaotic mess with no direction, respect, or will. Shocker. Next thing you'll tell me is that rubies are rare.

But why does it take Passan to ultimately report that Adrian Gonzalez, the underperforming All-Star first baseman who is apparently above any semblance of criticism, sparked a players-only team meeting with Red Sox owners to express displeasure with Bobby Valentine? Why is it that Buster Olney is the one who reported 17 players (did they take attendance?) were at that meeting? And why, oh, why, during Tuesday's pregame media session with Bobby Valentine, in the wake of the story breaking, was CSNNE's Joe Haggerty, a reporter not normally with the team, and one who took heat from the BBWAA for reporting last week that John Lackey was "double-*******" Bud Lights in the clubhouse, the only one to pose questions to the manager about the Passan piece? (The Globe's Nick Cafardo spoke with Valentine privately about the story)


Do the math.

Here's the problem: Until Red Sox beat reporters hold this team, and its questionable characters, accountable, nothing is going to change. Of course, it's still a Zip-a-Dee-Doo Dah good time as far as most are concerned. Why? If they cross that barrier, they won't get that pivotal quote from Josh Beckett that he "needs to pitch better?" Neat.

Instead, we get ifs, buts, and a general massaging of the players that has gone from ridiculous to borderline inexcusable. Take out nine of Beckett's starts and seven of Jon Lester's this year, and the Red Sox are 154-8! There's no drinking in the clubhouse, despite the fact that Beckett clearly has a "First Class, White Trash" bottle opener at his locker. You know, for Diet Coke! Nothing to see here!

The "Tsk Tsk" grief Haggerty received for last week's Lackey-swilling mention was ridiculous, his colleagues dismissing him for not knowing the rules. Dan Shaughnessy didn't know the rules, calling the availability of beer on the road, "sneaky." I didn't know. You didn't know. But we're all supposed to know. OK.

Dustin Pedroia dismissed the Passan piece last night, explaining that he's never met him, presumably with a nod and a wink from the reporters giving him a postgame pedicure. It got sublime last night when WCVB reported that owners were not at the now-infamous meeting, despite the fact that Ben Cherington confirmed to Passan that it took place.

I mean, what are we doing here?

He said, she said. You can't have an opinion unless you're a card-carrying member, which is sort of like saying you can't have a political view unless you live inside the Beltway. The Red Sox have been in serious, decaying decline since losing Game 7 of the 2008 ALCS. Both as a franchise and as an on-field product. That's a big deal. No? OK then. Rah-rah.

If the Red Sox had any sort of institutional integrity, they would go out and make a run to put Morgan Magic to shame, shut everybody up, and regain some semblance of likeability. Instead, they received another lackluster effort last night from Beckett and fell three games under .500. Clearly, that veracity isn't there. The season is over.

And, sorry, it's time for the fans to fight back. Drastic change is needed, and it's clear those embedded with the team aren't going to aid in that realm. Stop buying. Stop watching. Stop going. Stop caring.

Maybe then, they'll get the hint. As depressing that it is that it's come to this, no sane fan can any longer root for this group of slugs. Things have gone from laughable to clinically insane.

But if you take all that away, multiply 16 by 76, and stare at the moon for three hours, things are fine.

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08-15-2012, 12:38 PM
  #37
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This is one of those rare instances in sports debates where one party, in this case me, can remain confident that despite how much you might defend your side and your guy, it doesn't really matter. Subjective, objective, whatever. He's just not going to be around here very long. Now you can call that hunch "subjective" too if you want, but why don't we just agree to revisit this in October then?

I claim he was a sham hire and in way over his head. You like him and think he's qualified. One of us might be right, but more importantly, it might be irrelevant very, very soon.
I completely agree that it doesn't really matter. I'm not trying to change your stance. By all means, hate Valentine with every ounce of energy you have. Doesn't make a difference to me. I'm just giving my perspective. Neither one of us are wrong/right. And for the record, I haven't even said he won't be fired. That hasn't been the argument. I don't even "like" him. That's too strong. I do, however, think he's qualified for the job. In this day and age, he most likely won't be back. I haven't said otherwise. Doesn't mean I will cheer when it happens.

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08-15-2012, 12:56 PM
  #38
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Once the media and fans start holding this team accountable, then they'll win games? Really? So Beckett sucks, but once people start criticizing him, he'll be good? Pedroia may or may not be a problem in the clubhouse. But once the media holds him accountable, all will be well? Apparently we don't have baseball people who know how to build a good team. But once the media starts criticizing the front office, we'll make better baseball decisions? Seriously? The issue is we're not collectively stomping our feet loud enough?

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08-15-2012, 01:03 PM
  #39
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I feel bad for the saps who actually still contribute money towards Sox tickets and go see this awful team in action. As a fan, the only message you can send to ownership is with your wallet. In this case, put the wallet away.

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08-15-2012, 01:04 PM
  #40
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Wonder who gave Passan all the info. I know he had some quotes from Cherington, but I'm sure there's a player or two involved as well.
Shoppach

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08-15-2012, 01:10 PM
  #41
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Once the media and fans start holding this team accountable, then they'll win games? Really? So Beckett sucks, but once people start criticizing him, he'll be good? Pedroia may or may not be a problem in the clubhouse. But once the media holds him accountable, all will be well? Apparently we don't have baseball people who know how to build a good team. But once the media starts criticizing the front office, we'll make better baseball decisions? Seriously? The issue is we're not collectively stomping our feet loud enough?
Accountability usually keeps people honest and with the 'beat guys' not reporting any of the nonsense it gave the players a pass.

I think accountability is a god thing, why do you think it isn't?

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08-15-2012, 01:16 PM
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Accountability usually keeps people honest and with the 'beat guys' not reporting any of the nonsense it gave the players a pass.

I think accountability is a god thing, why do you think it isn't?

Players don't listen to the media like that. You really think people ripping the team would improve Beckett's ERA or Pedroia's batting average?

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08-15-2012, 01:22 PM
  #43
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How many people watch to bobby V show?

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08-15-2012, 01:22 PM
  #44
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Players don't listen to the media like that. You really think people ripping the team would improve Beckett's ERA or Pedroia's batting average?
So you don't think accountability is good? maybe if these guys knew they weren't protected they'd act more like professionals or be less likely to try and back stab the manager.

At this point, you refute everything I say, so I'm not sure what the point is.
You just keep saying nothing has any effect on the team on the field but play on the field...why have all these beat guys, why have a manger, why, why, why...

For months the beat guys would have you believe everything is fine with this team, but it's not.

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08-15-2012, 01:28 PM
  #45
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So you don't think accountability is good? maybe if these guys knew they weren't protected they'd act more like professionals or be less likely to try and back stab the manager.

At this point, you refute everything I say, so I'm not sure what the point is.
You just keep saying nothing has any effect on the team on the field but play on the field...why have all these beat guys, why have a manger, why, why, why...

For months the beat guys would have you believe everything is fine with this team, but it's not.
Why have the beat guys? Wait a second. It isn't their job to make the team better. They're just supposed to report on the team and write about them. I mean, that can involve criticism, but that doesn't affect the team.

And, yeah. It is my opinion that the play on the field is the reason this team isn't good. Everyone else is looking for bigger stories than that and it's really not necessary. The manager can hold people accountable and that might affect the play on the field, but the article wasn't talking the manager not holding people accountable. And you know what? One of the main complaints about the manager is that he holds people too accountable (well, if you consider leaving Lester in the game to deal with his own mess or saying "Nice inning, Will" holding players accountable). But I'm not complaining about the manager (I also don't fully know what's going on with the relationship between Bobby V and the players). I'm just saying criticism from the media and fans does not lead to player accountability.

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08-15-2012, 01:35 PM
  #46
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Why have the beat guys? Wait a second. It isn't their job to make the team better. They're just supposed to report on the team and write about them. I mean, that can involve criticism, but that doesn't affect the team.

And, yeah. It is my opinion that the play on the field is the reason this team isn't good. Everyone else is looking for bigger stories than that and it's really not necessary. The manager can hold people accountable and that might affect the play on the field, but the article wasn't talking the manager not holding people accountable. And you know what? One of the main complaints about the manager is that he holds people too accountable (well, if you consider leaving Lester in the game to deal with his own mess or saying "Nice inning, Will" holding players accountable). But I'm not complaining about the manager (I also don't fully know what's going on with the relationship between Bobby V and the players). I'm just saying criticism from the media and fans does not lead to player accountability.
Everything is fine, buy a brick.

If you don't think a lack of accountabilty has any effect on how these guys act, work and play then I don't know what to tell you.

It's not everyday a MLB team has 17 guys running behind the mangers back to the owner. Thats a problem and that IS a story.

It's not the beat guys job to cover for the players, it's to report whats going in with this team to the readers, the fans.

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08-15-2012, 01:42 PM
  #47
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Everything is fine, buy a brick.

If you don't think a lack of accountabilty has any effect on how these guys act, work and play then I don't know what to tell you.

It's not everyday a MLB team has 17 guys running behind the mangers back to the owner. Thats a problem and that IS a story.

It's not the beat guys job to cover for the players, it's to report whats going in with this team to the readers, the fans.

Why do you keep telling me everything is fine. Did I ever say that? And did I ever say accountability doesn't have an effect on the team? No. I actually literally just said "the manager can hold people accountable and that might affect the play on the field".

I'm glad someone from the media reported the story of the meeting. It's newsworthy. Great. I'm not against reporting the news. And I wouldn't have been against it if Nick Cafardo reported it. But that piece of news will have zero positive effect on the team. It will have zero effect on accountability. The media and fans will not get the players to play better by stomping their feet any louder.

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08-15-2012, 01:49 PM
  #48
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Why do you keep telling me everything is fine. Did I ever say that? And did I ever say accountability doesn't have an effect on the team? No. I actually literally just said "the manager can hold people accountable and that might affect the play on the field".

I'm glad someone from the media reported the story of the meeting. It's newsworthy. Great. I'm not against reporting the news. And I wouldn't have been against it if Nick Cafardo reported it. But that piece of news will have zero positive effect on the team. It will have zero effect on accountability. The media and fans will not get the players to play better by stomping their feet any louder.
So everything isn't fine, but don't bother reporting stuff that isn't positive, because it won't have any effect?

It's obvious based on this team meeting (minus the manger) they are spending more time worrying about things they don't control and spedning less time worrying about winning games.

A culture change is needed and having accountabilty is a start.

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08-15-2012, 01:54 PM
  #49
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How many people watch to bobby V show?
Haven't seen it...who is the host?

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08-15-2012, 01:55 PM
  #50
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Haven't seen it...who is the host?
IDK never seen it either

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