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Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XVII

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Old
08-16-2012, 01:36 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
Again, nobody is BLAMING Valentine. Why in the world do people keep creating this strawman day after day. I ask again...Mike Aviles is not the reason this team sucks, but does anybody want him starting at SS next season?

Bobby V is not THE reason this team sucks. He's on the list behind the starters, injuries, a combination of poor seasons from key players, etc. But he's on the list. He's a drama queen who commands zero respect. Since you can't clear out your top two starters today, you can't control injuries and you can't control whether key players are having bad years, YOU CHANGE WHAT YOU CAN CONTROL.
No you don't. Not unless you think it has the ability to actually improve things.

Will another manager make Crawford not have a bad ligament in his throwing arm? Would another manager make Middlebrooks not have a broken wrist or Aviles be an actual shorstop? Would they even make Salty an average defensive catcher, turn Beckett into the 2007 version of himself, or get Lester to pitch up to his career level? No, not really.

I don't bring Valentine back next year regardless. Not for any sin of his, but because I consider him a replaceable distraction. But to pretend that going off on Bobby V is in even the slightest most incremental sense anything remotely resembling a reasonable effort to address these problems is to deliberately pull the wool over your own eyes.

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08-16-2012, 01:43 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
While Bobby V didn't create the problem, he sure doesn't look to be part of the solution.
Yeah he is. He's taking these guys out of their comfort zone hence the *****ing and moaning all of the time. He's the only thing going well for the Red Sox right now, the only thing moving the team in a positive direction.

What happens if you get rid of Bobby V?

Another players manager comes in, some chicken gets dropped into the fryer, keg gets wheeled in, party time again!

What nobody has mentioned and it is quite alarming as an outsider, is just how much Bobby V has been able to drag this team to a better record than it should have.

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08-16-2012, 01:50 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Yeah he is. He's taking these guys out of their comfort zone hence the *****ing and moaning all of the time. He's the only thing going well for the Red Sox right now, the only thing moving the team in a positive direction.

What happens if you get rid of Bobby V?

Another players manager comes in, some chicken gets dropped into the fryer, keg gets wheeled in, party time again!

What nobody has mentioned and it is quite alarming as an outsider, is just how much Bobby V has been able to drag this team to a better record than it should have.
I guess I'm missing all the positive.

The last guy who was a player's manger actually won something and it wasn't in Japan.

Bobby V lost the Mets, fueded with the GM and things fell apart.

Do we have any evidence he can come into a bad situation and make it better?

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08-16-2012, 01:53 PM
  #154
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I bet there are still people out there who think if they fired Valentine today, this particular group of players would then go out there and put together some magical run.
And most people out there think that if Larry stepped down after the season, the team would have a good offseason and the players would play well next year. To me, that's just as bad (unless of course you think they'll play better next year anyways because it'll just take some time for Lester to figure out how to remove his head from his ass, etc...).

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08-16-2012, 01:56 PM
  #155
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And most people out there think that if Larry stepped down after the season, the team would have a good offseason and the players would play well next year. To me, that's just as bad (unless of course you think they'll play better next year anyways because it'll just take some time for Lester to figure out how to remove his head from his ass, etc...).
No, most of us believe that if Larry is gone Cherington will actually be able to do the job he was hired to do.

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08-16-2012, 02:07 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Mancini0518 View Post
No, most of us believe that if Larry is gone Cherington will actually be able to do the job he was hired to do.
Cherington was hired to be LL's lapdog, so how does he effectively do that if they get rid of LL?

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08-16-2012, 02:11 PM
  #157
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Cherington was hired to be LL's lapdog,
No he wasn't.

I can't help but think that ownership isn't quite stupid enough to hire one of Theo's disciples and expect him to bow and scrape to LL's whims. They brought Cherington in to prevent LL from having complete control of the team, I'm sure of it.

I imagine Lucchino had his own idea who should be the GM and I really seriously doubt it was Cherington.

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08-16-2012, 02:13 PM
  #158
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No you don't. Not unless you think it has the ability to actually improve things.

Will another manager make Crawford not have a bad ligament in his throwing arm? Would another manager make Middlebrooks not have a broken wrist or Aviles be an actual shorstop? Would they even make Salty an average defensive catcher, turn Beckett into the 2007 version of himself, or get Lester to pitch up to his career level? No, not really.

I don't bring Valentine back next year regardless. Not for any sin of his, but because I consider him a replaceable distraction. But to pretend that going off on Bobby V is in even the slightest most incremental sense anything remotely resembling a reasonable effort to address these problems is to deliberately pull the wool over your own eyes.
Wait, you agree this team needs a new manager yet you want him to keep the job for the next two months? So unless you can make every change you need to make in one fell swoop, don't start making incremental changes right away? Why not? Because people will consider it "going off" on him?

If management has every intention of replacing him, AND they have every intention of addressing the other concerns (most bigger I admit), I'd throw Bogar in the position for a few months to get his feet wet and see if he's a viable option. There is nothing at all to lose. (Oh, and I don't buy for one second this notion that firing Bobby V is catering to spoiled players. You need to get rid of the bad apples regardless. You don't put pride and PR ahead of moving forward.)

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08-16-2012, 02:14 PM
  #159
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No he wasn't.
Thats what he is though. He got over-ruled on the manger and has made small trades & signings.

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08-16-2012, 02:15 PM
  #160
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^ there is no solution until ownership takes responsibility for enabling them for years.
"Enabling them" or failing to address the glaring hole at #1 and #2 in the rotation?

I submit the biggest issue on this team is front line pitching. The rest of this BS is just scandalous fodder fed by fans eating up that crap and media too lazy to deliver anything but.

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08-16-2012, 02:17 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
No he wasn't.

I can't help but think that ownership isn't quite stupid enough to hire one of Theo's disciples and expect him to bow and scrape to LL's whims. They brought Cherington in to prevent LL from having complete control of the team, I'm sure of it.

I imagine Lucchino had his own idea who should be the GM and I really seriously doubt it was Cherington.
I guess you haven't heard this John Henry quote enough: 'Larry Luchino runs the Red Sox'.

I can also recall Theo wanting to leave because of Larry. Why do you think that would be?

Larry has no problem with Ben, because he can do what he wants...see Bobby V.

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08-16-2012, 02:27 PM
  #162
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I guess I'm missing all the positive.

The last guy who was a player's manger actually won something and it wasn't in Japan.

Bobby V lost the Mets, fueded with the GM and things fell apart.

Do we have any evidence he can come into a bad situation and make it better?
I never said you'd win with Bobby V, but you will defnitely clense out the bad culture, and this group clearly needs AT LEAST another full season (probably 2) with Bobby V to get to where it needs to be. They still don't get it....at all.

Keep in mind:

IMO, the Red Sox are a 68-70 win team this year (hence why I praise Mr. V for the overachieving)

Hopefully, players get committed to winning, team makes a couple decent moves and then they should be 82-88 wins next year

Then, in 2014, if things go well, they should be able to seriously compete for a playoff spot, and if they find a better long term manager for that season and beyond, go for it.

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08-16-2012, 02:33 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
No he wasn't.

I can't help but think that ownership isn't quite stupid enough to hire one of Theo's disciples and expect him to bow and scrape to LL's whims. They brought Cherington in to prevent LL from having complete control of the team, I'm sure of it.

I imagine Lucchino had his own idea who should be the GM and I really seriously doubt it was Cherington.
Stop. Just. Stop. Lucchino lost the last powerplay when Theo bailed, and he's been laying in wait to recoup that power. He certainly hired Cherington knowing full well that BC would REPORT to him. That's the only reason they hired him. He's a new GM, and he realized that getting the promotion, even with the constraints of having to get LL's sign off on everything was worth it. Like John Henry said on the radio, Larry Lucchino runs the Red Sox. Period. End of story. If you think they were going to hire someone that was going to stand up to LL, your opinion is sadly misguided, IMO.

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08-16-2012, 02:35 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I never said you'd win with Bobby V, but you will defnitely clense out the bad culture, and this group clearly needs AT LEAST another full season (probably 2) with Bobby V to get to where it needs to be. They still don't get it....at all.
Didn't the bad culture over run the Mets?

I just dont see it. Things appear to have gotten worse since he's been here. I don't blame him for all of it, he's got alot of peole ahead of him who are far more to blame. I just don't see him as part of the solution.
The only way the culture changes is by removing some of the probem children. I'd also like to see Luchino gone.

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08-16-2012, 02:39 PM
  #165
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Didn't the bad culture over run the Mets?

I just dont see it. Things appear to have gotten worse since he's been here. I don't blame him for all of it, he's got alot of peole ahead of him who are far more to blame. I just don't see him as part of the solution.
The only way the culture changes is by removing some of the probem children. I'd also like to see Luchino gone.
Yeah, and Bobby clensed them of it too. It was the big signings, guys like Mo Vaughn, who brought in the ****** attitude that infected the team. It only seems like he has made it worse because he attacks them and brings things out in the open, which they obviously hate and complain about a lot. But, in time, they will realize this torture has taught them to be profesionals again and also just how bad things can get for them if they choose not to care.

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08-16-2012, 02:42 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Yeah, and Bobby clensed them of it too. It was the big signings, guys like Mo Vaughn, who brought in the ****** attitude that infected the team. It only seems like he has made it worse because he attacks them and brings things out in the open, which they obviously hate and complain about a lot. But, in time, they will realize this torture has taught them to be profesionals again and also just how bad things can get for them if they choose not to care.
I can't see how not being able to have a talk with the manger without it coming out in the media is going to help the players onform to the Bobby V way.

If anyone looks like he doesn't care right now, it's Bobby.

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08-16-2012, 02:50 PM
  #167
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They have bad people on that team, people like David Ortiz, people like Josh Beckett. What do you say to people like that? I think what Bobby is trying to do is to say, "You're payed to train hard, come to the ballpark and play your best" When that is clearly not happening, the last thing the players need to be doing is saying a word about anything. They are out of control. Once they commit and start playing the way their talent dictates they should....while letting Bobby V make all of the decisions and not *****ing about it, then they will have earned his respect and he will be able to treat them with respect.

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08-16-2012, 03:00 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
They have bad people on that team, people like David Ortiz, people like Josh Beckett. What do you say to people like that? I think what Bobby is trying to do is to say, "You're payed to train hard, come to the ballpark and play your best" When that is clearly not happening, the last thing the players need to be doing is saying a word about anything. They are out of control. Once they commit and start playing the way their talent dictates they should....while letting Bobby V make all of the decisions and not *****ing about it, then they will have earned his respect and he will be able to treat them with respect.
I would have moved Beckett in the off-season. You don't have 17 guys have a ***** session with the owner and have that situation rectify itself.

We can go round and round on this, but I don't see this working with Bobby V.

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08-16-2012, 03:01 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
They have bad people on that team, people like David Ortiz, people like Josh Beckett. What do you say to people like that? I think what Bobby is trying to do is to say, "You're payed to train hard, come to the ballpark and play your best" When that is clearly not happening, the last thing the players need to be doing is saying a word about anything. They are out of control. Once they commit and start playing the way their talent dictates they should....while letting Bobby V make all of the decisions and not *****ing about it, then they will have earned his respect and he will be able to treat them with respect.
Really? He's saying that? I think you're thinking this is 1999 in New York. Bobby hasn't said squat to either of those guys (or most of the team for that matter), and he repeatedly and stubbornly gives the ball to Beckett to lose every 5 days then defends him. This is not the Bobby Valentine of old.

Now go ahead and fall back to the "well it's because management won't let him" thing, but that is not only inconsistent with how he was hired but impossible to prove. It's a non-sequitor. So end of the day he has a job to do, he's open for criticism for it, and he deserves plenty.

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08-16-2012, 03:21 PM
  #170
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Thats what he is though. He got over-ruled on the manger and has made small trades & signings.
Well, did Larry orchestrate the small trades & signings? You actually think he shot down bigger moves that would have helped the team for reasons other than "the team can't afford that", which happens to every team, every year? That seems very un-Larry like, who many think was the one who wanted to bring in guys like Crawford, AGon and maybe Lackey.

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08-16-2012, 03:30 PM
  #171
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McAdam said he wouldn't be surprised if they completely overreacted and signed someone like Josh heroin Hamilton.

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08-16-2012, 03:37 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Seguin2Marshmont View Post
Well, did Larry orchestrate the small trades & signings? You actually think he shot down bigger moves that would have helped the team for reasons other than "the team can't afford that", which happens to every team, every year? That seems very un-Larry like, who many think was the one who wanted to bring in guys like Crawford, AGon and maybe Lackey.
Do you remember why Theo jumped ship in a gorilla suit in 2005?

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/mag...9/the_breakup/

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...dirty_laundry/

LL has always meddled, and has always leaked crap to the press. He's a huge part of the problem.

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08-16-2012, 03:54 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Seguin2Marshmont View Post
Well, did Larry orchestrate the small trades & signings? You actually think he shot down bigger moves that would have helped the team for reasons other than "the team can't afford that", which happens to every team, every year? That seems very un-Larry like, who many think was the one who wanted to bring in guys like Crawford, AGon and maybe Lackey.
I think Larry thought that September was an aberation and that guys like Beckett, Lester & Crawford would bounce back, so a big move wasn't needed, just minor tweaks.

Bring in Bobby V and everything will be ok....

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08-16-2012, 03:57 PM
  #174
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McAdam said he wouldn't be surprised if they completely overreacted and signed someone like Josh heroin Hamilton.
I'm not sure how they could pull that off without unloading a big contract. I know Dice-K comes off the books, but Hamilton would cost 20 million plus.
If I understand it right, the luxury tax gets much stiffer next year and I'm not sure henry wants anything to do with it.

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08-16-2012, 04:03 PM
  #175
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McAdam said he wouldn't be surprised if they completely overreacted and signed someone like Josh heroin Hamilton.
I think that's a little unnecessary.

Anyway, the only way Hamilton would work here is if you get rid of the "I like beer" crew. I'd welcome both of those things.

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And most people out there think that if Larry stepped down after the season, the team would have a good offseason and the players would play well next year. To me, that's just as bad (unless of course you think they'll play better next year anyways because it'll just take some time for Lester to figure out how to remove his head from his ass, etc...).
I don't know about most, but saying the team would have a better offseason without Lucchino calling the shots isn't exactly a stretch. May not turn out to be accurate, but it's certainly not a stretch. I do agree that no matter who is in charge, this group of players has proven that they are not a good team. We know that. It's up to their boss to make the necessary changes in order to fix things. I'm not so sure he's the man for that job, however.

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"Enabling them" or failing to address the glaring hole at #1 and #2 in the rotation?
Both.

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The only way the culture changes is by removing some of the probem children.
I agree that the only way the culture changes is by removing some of the problem children--i.e. players (I assume that's what you mean). If that is done, I'd like to see what Valentine can do with that different roster of players.

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If anyone looks like he doesn't care right now, it's Bobby.
Doesn't care about what? And why do you say he doesn't care?

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