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Who to blame?

View Poll Results: Who holds more blame?
Pat Quinn (GM/Head Coach) 27 87.10%
Mats Sundin 4 12.90%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-19-2005, 09:35 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Cliff Fletcher.

He left the team a shambles in 1997. Mike Murphy having a team that couldn't play defense for the life of themselves was disastrous. Pat Quinn came in and took the shackles off and played to the strength of the team. Quinn worked miracles with the team in 1999. They were very soft and very thin depth wise. Over the next couple years and couple beatings by the Devils (and they would have won the series and maybe if Domi hadn't awoke the team by KOing Niedermayer), they built the team to beat the Devils, which was the right move because they were the power of the Conference. The year they lost to Carolina, they never should have gotten past the first round because of injuries, but they gutted one out vs the Islanders and the Senators don't have the testicular fortitude. Unfortunately they didn't have anything left when they reached the Conference final. The two years they have lost to Philly is because of lack of skill players. They built the team to be tough and handle Jersey (who are now in decline) and couldn't keep up with the speed of the Flyers (and McCabe is the last guy you want next to you with a grenade in his hands!)

The team has made the moves to win, unfortunately they were a year or two behind with their plan. They were not proactive, they were reactionary.
I don't understand how you can blame Fletcher, and then still arrive at that last sentence.

Oh, and they still can't play defence to save their lives.

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01-19-2005, 09:50 PM
  #27
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Niether of them.

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01-20-2005, 10:06 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
I don't understand how you can blame Fletcher, and then still arrive at that last sentence.

Oh, and they still can't play defence to save their lives.
I wasn't blaming Fletcher, I was working towards blaming timing, but forgot that I had started that sentence. Was exhausted when I started that post.

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Originally Posted by SSJTOM
Rand.
I'll second that!

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01-20-2005, 10:38 AM
  #29
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This is a stupid question neither Quinn nor Sundin are to blame.

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01-20-2005, 10:39 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJTOM
Rand.
Damn Flyers spy...

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01-20-2005, 11:35 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ
This is a stupid question neither Quinn nor Sundin are to blame.
I am just curious ..

If it is not managements fault as Coach and Gm that put the players on the ice and gives them direction .

nor if they feel Mats leadership as captain on the ice is not a factor then

WHO IS TO BLAME THEN ???

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01-20-2005, 02:15 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
I am just curious ..

If it is not managements fault as Coach and Gm that put the players on the ice and gives them direction .

nor if they feel Mats leadership as captain on the ice is not a factor then

WHO IS TO BLAME THEN ???
Question why do you insist there has to be a single person to blame? There are a large number of factors that have cost us the chance to win it all. I can list bad games by individual players (not simply Sundin although I admit he has had bad games), injuries (the loss of Berard is the one that hurt the most I think), boneheaded calls by officials at critical moments (not uncommon for a team (not just the Leafs) to win or loose a game based on a call by the refs), bad ice, bad luck, and simply being overmatched as reasons that the Leafs have not won the Cup.

I find it rediculous that anyone would think that Quinn or Sundin, two of the most important people behind what success the Leafs do enjoy, are the reason why the Leafs have not won the cup. Only one team can win the cup and I am of the belief that it is a TEAM that wins the cup. When a team wins the cup it is the whole team that wins. Lesser role players are often just as important the final victory as the "big name" players are. Not the coach and certainly not a single player of a team can take credit for a cup victory. Why is it that blame for a failure to win has to be placed on the shoulders of a single player (Sundin) or coach (Quinn).

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01-20-2005, 07:57 PM
  #33
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Bad timing and bad luck. Sundin had no decent talent to play with the first couple years and then injuries took down the team later on.... and Bryan McCabe plays the puck like it's a grenade.

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01-20-2005, 08:33 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ
Question why do you insist there has to be a single person to blame? There are a large number of factors that have cost us the chance to win it all. I can list bad games by individual players (not simply Sundin although I admit he has had bad games), injuries (the loss of Berard is the one that hurt the most I think), boneheaded calls by officials at critical moments (not uncommon for a team (not just the Leafs) to win or loose a game based on a call by the refs), bad ice, bad luck, and simply being overmatched as reasons that the Leafs have not won the Cup.

While I certainly believe that all the things play a part .. but only really a small part ..

With your blame the Refs blame the Ice ... all these things are not controllable by the team .. So that would suggest the Hockey is won outside of the players and the coach if you believe these are the reasons ..

So it doesn't matter as long as you anyone out there you have to hope that the Refs don't call penalties and bad luck and bad ice ..

But in games that Toronto has been eliminated like NJ with just 6 shots on net or Philly hammer the leafs 7-1 or whatever .. all your above things could really be eliminated as the cause ...

I agree not one person is to Blame perhaps the question should read who is the most to blame for the defeats ..

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01-21-2005, 12:18 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
Who holds more responsibility for not atleast making it to the Stanley Cup finals in the last 6 years?

In your poll, you had in brackets for Quinn as (GM/Head Coach) but for Sundin, there was nothing.
Sundin, as the world knows him, is a great player. However, we as Leaf fans already know Sundin is a great player. But we as Leaf fans should be more concerned with how Sundin is as a captain.
Skills he's got, leadership? There's the real question now.
We've built an amazing team. I been watching the Leafs since 1977 and this team for the past 6 years has been the best.

Sundin as a player has been awesome. Sundin as a captain has been inadequate.

Kenny Dryden, the man with the vision, was the real saviour for the Leafs.

When I say saviour, I mean a guy that brought us out of the mentality of 'draft smaft'. A guy that brought us out of the boring Western Conference and into rivalry in the East. Leaf hockey just got whole lot better with that move.

Dryden was a visionary and he brought in Pat Quinn to coach.
What a move! This guy brought in offensive hockey and gave us Leafs that many haven't seen before.
I still remember the day when I heard over the summer that we got Pat Quinn and it was the end of the depression era under Murphy. I remember yelling out "Goodbye grey skies, Hello BLUE!

So you can't put blame on Quinn whatsoever.

Like can you guys imagine, when the NHL starts up again, after the horn and NOT having Quinn up there doing post game conference?

With Andy Frost complementing him and I just can't imagine Leafs TV without Quinn. I miss Andy too.

So getting back to the point, I blame Sundin's captaincy.
Mighty Quinn can do no wrong.

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01-21-2005, 12:20 AM
  #36
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Dryden? Draft smart? Wow there's more wrong with you than I thought. It took Barry Trapp and JFJ to start taking the Draft seriously.

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01-21-2005, 12:43 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Master of Puppets
Dryden? Draft smart? Wow there's more wrong with you than I thought. It took Barry Trapp and JFJ to start taking the Draft seriously.

Under Dryden's direction, the Leafs had the most World Junior Prospects they ever had. And more than a lot of teams for that matter. That's what counts a lot.

You can't even talk about JFJ much yet. It will take some time before we know what he is like.

When Dryden came, that's when the Leafs were being taken seriously. That's when all the jokes subsided like Maple Laughs.

That's when we started making the playoffs. He blew the Leafs up so big that there's even Leafs TV now.
He gave the Leaf fans a lot of things they've been craving, and we salute him for that. Please do not disrespect Kenny Dryden.

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01-21-2005, 01:16 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by TrueBlue
Under Dryden's direction, the Leafs had the most World Junior Prospects they ever had. And more than a lot of teams for that matter. That's what counts a lot.

You can't even talk about JFJ much yet. It will take some time before we know what he is like.

When Dryden came, that's when the Leafs were being taken seriously. That's when all the jokes subsided like Maple Laughs.

That's when we started making the playoffs. He blew the Leafs up so big that there's even Leafs TV now.
He gave the Leaf fans a lot of things they've been craving, and we salute him for that. Please do not disrespect Kenny Dryden.
He didn't trade any of our top prospects and brought in Craig Button. He's already stated he ahs commitment to our younger players. Thats all I needd to now right now.

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01-21-2005, 02:14 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueBlue
Under Dryden's direction, the Leafs had the most World Junior Prospects they ever had. And more than a lot of teams for that matter. That's what counts a lot.

You can't even talk about JFJ much yet. It will take some time before we know what he is like.

When Dryden came, that's when the Leafs were being taken seriously. That's when all the jokes subsided like Maple Laughs.

That's when we started making the playoffs. He blew the Leafs up so big that there's even Leafs TV now.
He gave the Leaf fans a lot of things they've been craving, and we salute him for that. Please do not disrespect Kenny Dryden.
uhhh.....wasn't he the guy who fired everyone 'cause he was such a total control freak?

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01-21-2005, 08:21 AM
  #40
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Quote:
When Dryden came, that's when the Leafs were being taken seriously. That's when all the jokes subsided like Maple Laughs.
I hate to break this to you, but they haven't subsided at all.

In fact, they've gotten worse than ever, because the Leafs actually ice decent teams now. People spend way more energy knocking them down than they used to.

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01-21-2005, 10:44 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
With your blame the Refs blame the Ice ... all these things are not controllable by the team .. So that would suggest the Hockey is won outside of the players and the coach if you believe these are the reasons ..
No. I believe that there is more to a team winning it all then individual players or a coach. I thought I made it quite clear that everyone in an orginization, from the assistant coaches to the trainers, from the star players to the researves are responsible for a cup win. If not everyone is dedicated to the win, for whatever reason that team stands less of a chance to win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
So it doesn't matter as long as you anyone out there you have to hope that the Refs don't call penalties and bad luck and bad ice ..
..
I was not blaming the refs nor the ice for the Leafs not winning. I was simply pointing out various factors that cost teams wins in the playoffs and I made it clear that this is not a phenomenon that only the Leafs experience. Say what you will, but chance plays a huge role on if a team wins or not. A funny bounce or a bad call at the wrong time in a game can kill a team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
But in games that Toronto has been eliminated like NJ with just 6 shots on net or Philly hammer the leafs 7-1 or whatever .. all your above things could really be eliminated as the cause ..
These are cases of the team simply being overwhelmed by the opponent. Routes happen to every team at some time or another. The Leafs themselves have thumped the Sens and Pens by some pretty wide margins. All that this tells me is that for whatever reason the Leafs as a team simply were not good enough to win on those nights. We beat them before but we could not beat them on that night (believe me I hate this type of game as well). No one player could change the outcome of these games with the exception perhaps of the goaltender. I don't see anyone questioning Cujo or Belfour so I will leave this observation at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
I agree not one person is to Blame perhaps the question should read who is the most to blame for the defeats ..
Agreed. I will say that I would name a different person or group of people each year. Corson stands out as someone I would name for the Philly series two seasons ago for instance.

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01-21-2005, 11:29 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by tml_4ever
uhhh.....wasn't he the guy who fired everyone 'cause he was such a total control freak?
No, he fired Mike Smith the control freak.

Dryden is the first guy in charge of the Leafs in my lifetime of watching them that actually looked to the future. He stated when he first got the job that he wanted to maintain a winning tradition and have a strong organization from prospects on up and he did a good job of it.

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01-21-2005, 11:56 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ
No. I believe that there is more to a team winning it all then individual players or a coach. I thought I made it quite clear that everyone in an orginization, from the assistant coaches to the trainers, from the star players to the researves are responsible for a cup win. If not everyone is dedicated to the win, for whatever reason that team stands less of a chance to win.

I was not blaming the refs nor the ice for the Leafs not winning. I was simply pointing out various factors that cost teams wins in the playoffs and I made it clear that this is not a phenomenon that only the Leafs experience. Say what you will, but chance plays a huge role on if a team wins or not. A funny bounce or a bad call at the wrong time in a game can kill a team.

These are cases of the team simply being overwhelmed by the opponent. Routes happen to every team at some time or another. The Leafs themselves have thumped the Sens and Pens by some pretty wide margins. All that this tells me is that for whatever reason the Leafs as a team simply were not good enough to win on those nights. We beat them before but we could not beat them on that night (believe me I hate this type of game as well). No one player could change the outcome of these games with the exception perhaps of the goaltender. I don't see anyone questioning Cujo or Belfour so I will leave this observation at that.

Agreed. I will say that I would name a different person or group of people each year. Corson stands out as someone I would name for the Philly series two seasons ago for instance.
I agree that a bad bounce or and bad call from time to time have an effect so do many other things ...

but unlike say the NFL plyoffs or an Olympic game ..a single game elimination best of one.. yes then these intangible things can happen, and do happen and the better team on that day does not always win.

but the NHL has best of 7 game series ... The purpose is to nullify the strange and odd events that effect a single game by forcing a team to win 4 of 7 games and in those cases the BEST TEAM is intended to win and the good successful ones do..

Why are coaches like Joel Quennville and Jacques Martin fired .... Their regular season teams got 100 points and sailed into the playoffs each year, just like Quinn does ... but when it counted they where not good enough to beat the team they where facing on the ice, and the GM determined that they had enough talent to win with but where just not coached or motivated to do it ..

They did not lose their jobs because of a bad ref's call or a bad bounce .. year after year ,series after series ... Quinn does the same thing but excuses are coming a mile a minute that its not his fault nor is he to blame for anything ... and add to that Quinn had the biggest advantage over coaches like them because as GM he had picked his team that was not good enough .. The other fired coaches had to work with what their GM thought was the right team ....

In the case of a single player being blamed can occur ..see Lalime in game 7 last year as an example of being able to pinpoint a loss on a individual for example. Ottawa addressed that weakness and let Lalime go.. but in this case its Mats .. Sundin has been hurt and not playing in many games due to injury .... That by definition hurts his team by is absence but a player has to be playing himself to say he hurt the team ... If you get swepted in a series and your best player is shutout in all games then he deserves blame for his on ice performance ... If he is in the press box because he got a puck in the mouth or fell into the boards and hurt his leg .. He can't be held accountable for the 4 out of 7 loses in a series that his teammates played in while he watched..

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01-21-2005, 12:48 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
No, he fired Mike Smith the control freak.

Dryden is the first guy in charge of the Leafs in my lifetime of watching them that actually looked to the future. He stated when he first got the job that he wanted to maintain a winning tradition and have a strong organization from prospects on up and he did a good job of it.
Dryden was about as useful to the Leafs as an ashtray on a motorbike. The only real accomplishment on the ice he can brag about was bumping into Cujo's agent in a grocery store.

He did a lot in the way of the community but when it came to the team he provided squat other than those long boring speeches. He's perfect for politics, he makes a lot of money to flap his yap but brings little in the way of constructive accomplishments.

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01-21-2005, 01:38 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Why are coaches like Joel Quennville and Jacques Martin fired .... Their regular season teams got 100 points and sailed into the playoffs each year, just like Quinn does ... but when it counted they where not good enough to beat the team they where facing on the ice, and the GM determined that they had enough talent to win with but where just not coached or motivated to do it ..

They did not lose their jobs because of a bad ref's call or a bad bounce .. year after year ,series after series ... Quinn does the same thing but excuses are coming a mile a minute that its not his fault nor is he to blame for anything ... and add to that Quinn had the biggest advantage over coaches like them because as GM he had picked his team that was not good enough .. The other fired coaches had to work with what their GM thought was the right team ....

In the case of a single player being blamed can occur ..see Lalime in game 7 last year as an example of being able to pinpoint a loss on a individual for example. Ottawa addressed that weakness and let Lalime go.. but in this case its Mats .. Sundin has been hurt and not playing in many games due to injury .... That by definition hurts his team by is absence but a player has to be playing himself to say he hurt the team ... If you get swepted in a series and your best player is shutout in all games then he deserves blame for his on ice performance ... If he is in the press box because he got a puck in the mouth or fell into the boards and hurt his leg .. He can't be held accountable for the 4 out of 7 loses in a series that his teammates played in while he watched..
:lol LOL, you really don't like Quinn do you? Well I can argue further as far as Quinn goes, but I see no purpose. You hate Quinn and you will blame him for the teams defeat regardless of the arguements I make. I think the team as a whole lost, you say the coach.

As far as a single event or player winning or loosing a series you seem to be argueing against yourself. First you tell me that the 7 game series that NHL uses to avoid having a bad bounce or a bad call decide a series then you tell me that Lalime is the reason why Ottawa lost last year. Lalime played excellent (Yes Belfour was better) up until the last game where he let in a couple of softies. In this case one game cost the team a series and destroyed what was left of Lalime's reputation in Ottawa. How come a bad call or a bad bounce does not have the same impact in your books?

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01-21-2005, 02:03 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Dar
Dryden was about as useful to the Leafs as an ashtray on a motorbike. The only real accomplishment on the ice he can brag about was bumping into Cujo's agent in a grocery store.

He did a lot in the way of the community but when it came to the team he provided squat other than those long boring speeches. He's perfect for politics, he makes a lot of money to flap his yap but brings little in the way of constructive accomplishments.
Fact is, the organization is stronger from scouting on up than it was before Dryden took charge.

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01-21-2005, 02:12 PM
  #47
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A lot of things have been on the upswing since the mid 90's, but it doesn't mean Dryden's responsible. On the contrary Trapp is questionably the biggest thing to happen to the scouting department and it was Quinn who brought him in.

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01-21-2005, 05:04 PM
  #48
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I chose Quinn, yet I would choose Sundin if I could go back. I don't think it's his fault but out of the two I think Sundin being injured a couple times is more fault then Patty.

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01-21-2005, 05:27 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by tml4life
I chose Quinn, yet I would choose Sundin if I could go back. I don't think it's his fault but out of the two I think Sundin being injured a couple times is more fault then Patty.
Just wondering, how exactly is it Sundin's fault he got injured. By the same token you could blame Quinn for having heart problems and not being there in part of the Canes series.

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01-22-2005, 12:20 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Master of Puppets
Just wondering, how exactly is it Sundin's fault he got injured. By the same token you could blame Quinn for having heart problems and not being there in part of the Canes series.
I chose neither, but if i had to choose i'd pick Sundin because it's the most valid reason I could find. I'm not blaming him for being injured, just simply suggesting that Sundin being healthy would have made the leafs a better team, a better team then when Pat was on the shelf with the heart problems.

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