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Penguins to Winnipeg offer

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Old
01-20-2005, 12:30 PM
  #51
Lionel Hutz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
Wonderful, get the addicted gamblers to save the team. Can you really go any lower.

"We saved the team for a few years, but 10,000 families are now homeless in the process"

Do I hear a big Go Pens go?
This gets my nomination for the postys.

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Old
01-20-2005, 01:15 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
The population is only one factor, but it is a problem for Winnipeg.

They also have an undersized arena, poor economy, stagnant growth, a confiscatory tax regime, the problem of the Canadian dollar, low per capita income, no potential for media market growth and most important of all to the NHL a poor corporate market.

If Edmonton and Calgary who have the corporate sector, the arenas, population and economic growth are having difficulties, then Winnipeg is dead as a dodo.

Yes, the CBA may change things but if that is the case there are 25 other cities which sit in front of Winnipeg where an owner can make more money. The US cities give substantial incentives to relocating teams - why do you think the North Stars moved to Dallas?

25 other cities in front of winnipeg ?

name them please

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Old
01-20-2005, 01:21 PM
  #53
cneely
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
The population is only one factor, but it is a problem for Winnipeg.

They also have an undersized arena, poor economy, stagnant growth, a confiscatory tax regime, the problem of the Canadian dollar, low per capita income, no potential for media market growth and most important of all to the NHL a poor corporate market.

If Edmonton and Calgary who have the corporate sector, the arenas, population and economic growth are having difficulties, then Winnipeg is dead as a dodo.

Yes, the CBA may change things but if that is the case there are 25 other cities which sit in front of Winnipeg where an owner can make more money. The US cities give substantial incentives to relocating teams - why do you think the North Stars moved to Dallas?
Hmm. Not sure where your stats are coming from regarding the poor economy, stagnant growth, low per capita income, or the lack of potential for media market growth.

None of those are an issue from where I stand. The economy is actually doing quite well in recent years, growth is steady if unspectacular, and the per capita income is average. Due to the fact that there isn't an NHL team for at least 500 miles in each direction, the potential for media growth is also there.

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Old
01-20-2005, 01:41 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
Hmm. Not sure where your stats are coming from regarding the poor economy, stagnant growth, low per capita income, or the lack of potential for media market growth.

None of those are an issue from where I stand. The economy is actually doing quite well in recent years, growth is steady if unspectacular, and the per capita income is average. Due to the fact that there isn't an NHL team for at least 500 miles in each direction, the potential for media growth is also there.
Stats Canada, the recent Canadian Taxpayer Federation reports on Winnipeg and Manitoba.

Over five years population growth per Stats Can

Winnipeg 20,000
Quebec City 19,000

Toronto 550,000
Montreal 170,000
Vancouver 150,000
Calgary 110,000
Edmonton 60,000

Hamilton 40,000
Oshawa 36,000
Kitchener 34,000

As I said Winnipeg just will not work as an NHL market. It is not just population it is also has stagant economic growth, lack of significant corporate presence and a confiscatory tax regime. Read the latest reports from the Canadian Taxpayers' federation - it lays the whole thing out.

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Old
01-20-2005, 01:42 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawker14
25 other cities in front of winnipeg ?

name them please
Take your pick:
http://bestcities.milkeninstitute.org/bc200.html

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Old
01-20-2005, 01:47 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawker14
25 other cities in front of winnipeg ?

name them please

I'll take a guess here.

Houston
Las Vegas
Kansas City
Portland
Sacramento
Norfolk
Milwaukee
Austin
San Antonio
San Diego
Orlando
Seattle
Salt Lake City
Oklahoma City
Grand Rapids
Cleveland
New Haven
Tucson
Fresno
Baltimore
Jacksonville
Providence
Richmond, VA
Indianapolis
Cincinnati

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Old
01-20-2005, 01:57 PM
  #57
cneely
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
Stats Canada, the recent Canadian Taxpayer Federation reports on Winnipeg and Manitoba.

Over five years population growth per Stats Can

Winnipeg 20,000
Quebec City 19,000

Toronto 550,000
Montreal 170,000
Vancouver 150,000
Calgary 110,000
Edmonton 60,000

Hamilton 40,000
Oshawa 36,000
Kitchener 34,000

As I said Winnipeg just will not work as an NHL market. It is not just population it is also has stagant economic growth, lack of significant corporate presence and a confiscatory tax regime. Read the latest reports from the Canadian Taxpayers' federation - it lays the whole thing out.
When you are talking about population growth, you need to look farther than Winnipeg proper. As someone alluded to earlier in this thread, "bedroom" communties on the outskirts of Winnipeg such as Headingly, Selkirk, Lorette, Stonewall, Iles Des Chenes, Tyndall, and Oak Bluff are thriving. I'd be very surprised to see small growth in these areas.

I'll do some research in the Taxpayers federation report. I can tell you from personal experience that the economy is better than it has been in years. Housing starts are way up, and real estate values have increased by about 40% in the last 3 years.

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:01 PM
  #58
Hawker14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
Stats Canada, the recent Canadian Taxpayer Federation reports on Winnipeg and Manitoba.

Over five years population growth per Stats Can

Winnipeg 20,000
Quebec City 19,000

Toronto 550,000
Montreal 170,000
Vancouver 150,000
Calgary 110,000
Edmonton 60,000

Hamilton 40,000
Oshawa 36,000
Kitchener 34,000

As I said Winnipeg just will not work as an NHL market. It is not just population it is also has stagant economic growth, lack of significant corporate presence and a confiscatory tax regime. Read the latest reports from the Canadian Taxpayers' federation - it lays the whole thing out.
if the "canadian taxpayers federation" wasn't a privately funded special interest group, and actually represented all canadian taxpayers, more credence would be lent to their articles. this group doesn't represent the poor or the middle class.

their policies and opinions are aimed at creating more wealth for the richest canadians at the expense of social programs such as universal health care. not exactly the scenario most canadians support.

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:08 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
I'll take a guess here.

Houston
Las Vegas
Kansas City
Portland
Sacramento
Norfolk
Milwaukee
Austin
San Antonio
San Diego
Orlando
Seattle
Salt Lake City
Oklahoma City
Grand Rapids
Cleveland
New Haven
Tucson
Fresno
Baltimore
Jacksonville
Providence
Richmond, VA
Indianapolis
Cincinnati
no question houston, seattle and portland seem to be suitable nhl cities. this is not news.

as for the other cities, sunbelt, too small, too poor, or too much competition from nba/nfl/mlb in relation to market size.

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:10 PM
  #60
cneely
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According to Stats Canada

Average weekly earnings in Manitoba are up 5.78% over last year as opposed to 1.16% in Ontario. (Ontario used simply as a reference point)

Unemployment in Manitoba is 5.2% as opposed to 6.8% in Ontario.

Retail trade in Manitoba is up 10.1% as opposed to 4.3% in Ontario.

Building permits in Manitoba have increased by 26.6% as opposed to 1.1% in Ontario.

Housing starts in Manitoba are up 7.5% as opposed to a decrease of 3.8% in Ontario.

Links for anyone who wants to verify:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/indi02g.htm

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/indi02h.htm

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:11 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
Average weekly earnings in Manitoba are up 5.78% over last year as opposed to 1.16% in Ontario. (Ontario used simply as a reference point)

Unemployment in Manitoba is 5.2% as opposed to 6.8% in Ontario.

Retail trade in Manitoba is up 10.1% as opposed to 4.3% in Ontario.

Building permits in Manitoba have increased by 26.6% as opposed to 1.1% in Ontario.

Housing starts in Manitoba are up 7.5% as opposed to a decrease of 3.8% in Ontario.

Links for anyone who wants to verify:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/indi02g.htm

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/indi02h.htm

please don't confuse the issue with facts. hehe


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Old
01-20-2005, 02:11 PM
  #62
bennysflyers16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawker14
no question houston, seattle and portland seem to be suitable nhl cities. this is not news.

as for the other cities, sunbelt, too small, too poor, or too much competition from nba/nfl/mlb in relation to market size.
Plus, those sunny locations just are not hockey towns, part of the reason we are in this mess right now is because of expansion to non-hockey markets.

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:14 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawker14
no question houston, seattle and portland seem to be suitable nhl cities. this is not news.

as for the other cities, sunbelt, too small, too poor, or too much competition from nba/nfl/mlb in relation to market size.
All of those cities have bigger metropolitan areas then Winnipeg.

Which criteria do New Haven, Providence and Grand Rapids not meet that Winnipeg does?

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:18 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
Which criteria do New Haven, Providence and Grand Rapids not meet that Winnipeg does?
Winnipeg doesn't have an NHL team within 500 miles. An NHL team based here would draw on more than just the metropolitan area, but from Saskatchewan, Northern Ontario, and the entire Province of Manitoba.

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:23 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
Winnipeg doesn't have an NHL team within 500 miles. An NHL team based here would draw on more than just the metropolitan area, but from Saskatchewan, Northern Ontario, and the entire Province of Manitoba.
How many people who live hundreds of miles away get season tickets?

Maybe there's no team within 500 miles because there aren't many people living within 500 miles?

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:30 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
All of those cities have bigger metropolitan areas then Winnipeg.

Which criteria do New Haven, Providence and Grand Rapids not meet that Winnipeg does?
without going into in depth reasons, i'll simply state location.

there's no way jacobs would allow a team to invade his fanbase by allowing a team in providence.

there's no way wirtz would allow a team to invade his fanbase by allowing a team in grand rapids, and i highly doubt the wings would either.

new haven, hehe, not ever. however, no argument from me for putting a team back in hartford.

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:31 PM
  #67
cneely
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
How many people who live hundreds of miles away get season tickets?

Maybe there's no team within 500 miles because there aren't many people living within 500 miles?
I grew up in a small town, about 110 miles from Winnipeg. Population of the town proper was about 400, and I personally knew 10 people with Jets season tickets. I used to come to games everyonce in a while. We'd leave right after school, go for dinner, and make an evening out of it, sleeping in the car on the way home. There are probably 100 small towns like that within a 2 hour radius.

There is certainly not another major center within 500 miles, but start adding in the population of all the small towns, add Regina, add Saskatoon, add Brandon. The market size would basically double from the 700,000 in Winnipeg.

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:38 PM
  #68
bennysflyers16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
I grew up in a small town, about 110 miles from Winnipeg. Population of the town proper was about 400, and I personally knew 10 people with Jets season tickets. I used to come to games everyonce in a while. We'd leave right after school, go for dinner, and make an evening out of it, sleeping in the car on the way home. There are probably 100 small towns like that within a 2 hour radius.

There is certainly not another major center within 500 miles, but start adding in the population of all the small towns, add Regina, add Saskatoon, add Brandon. The market size would basically double from the 700,000 in Winnipeg.

Don't forget the Greater Grand Forks area, which is 2 hrs away, I beleive another 60 thousand !

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Old
01-20-2005, 03:05 PM
  #69
cneely
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16
Don't forget the Greater Grand Forks area, which is 2 hrs away, I beleive another 60 thousand !
And even Fargo... Although you can make a case that they may be Wild fans, as Minneapolis is getting almost as close at that point.


Last edited by cneely: 01-20-2005 at 03:20 PM.
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Old
01-20-2005, 04:02 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
Average weekly earnings in Manitoba are up 5.78% over last year as opposed to 1.16% in Ontario. (Ontario used simply as a reference point)

Unemployment in Manitoba is 5.2% as opposed to 6.8% in Ontario.

Retail trade in Manitoba is up 10.1% as opposed to 4.3% in Ontario.

Building permits in Manitoba have increased by 26.6% as opposed to 1.1% in Ontario.

Housing starts in Manitoba are up 7.5% as opposed to a decrease of 3.8% in Ontario.

Links for anyone who wants to verify:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/indi02g.htm

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/indi02h.htm
So what. A five 5% increase from poverty is meaningless. The bottom line is this. Winnipeg is small. It has no real industries to generate the wealth needed to pay NHL prices or corporations to pay the the bills.

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Old
01-20-2005, 04:13 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by arnie
So what. A five 5% increase from poverty is meaningless. The bottom line is this. Winnipeg is small. It has no real industries to generate the wealth needed to pay NHL prices or corporations to pay the the bills.

Actually they have the average weekly earnings in real dollars there as well, and it's relatively close to Toronto. (I think 650 to 720 or something).
And in Winnipeg, where you can actuall buy a decent house for less than $150k, the cost of living is much, much lower.

I'm not sure about their ability either, due to the lack of big business HQ's, but seems the more I post on this thread, the more I'm convincing myself.

There are several large corporate companies headquartered in Winnipeg. Gendis, CanWest Global, and Great West Life to name a few, but we certainly don't have the quantities of most other major Canadian centers.

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Old
01-20-2005, 04:44 PM
  #72
clefty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
Wonderful, get the addicted gamblers to save the team. Can you really go any lower.

"We saved the team for a few years, but 10,000 families are now homeless in the process"

Do I hear a big Go Pens go?
Probably the dumbest thing I've ever read here.

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Old
01-20-2005, 04:54 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
This is great news for the Assiniboine zoo! Penguins to go with their polar bears in the Arctic exhibit. Fantastic learning opportunity for the children of Winnipeg!
You know that Penguins live in the anarctic right? Polar bears = North pole. Penguins = South pole

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Old
01-20-2005, 05:20 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
I grew up in a small town, about 110 miles from Winnipeg. Population of the town proper was about 400, and I personally knew 10 people with Jets season tickets. I used to come to games everyonce in a while. We'd leave right after school, go for dinner, and make an evening out of it, sleeping in the car on the way home. There are probably 100 small towns like that within a 2 hour radius.
I have family that used to live the same distance from Winnipeg back when the Jets were still around. They'd go to the occasional game because they said it was incredibly cheap. But if the weather was bad, forget it.

But will those people pay the same price when tickets aren't so cheap?

And what about nights when the weather is bad?

Quote:
There is certainly not another major center within 500 miles, but start adding in the population of all the small towns, add Regina, add Saskatoon, add Brandon. The market size would basically double from the 700,000 in Winnipeg.
Saskatoon is closer to Calgary then Winnipeg. Regina is marginally closer to Winnipeg then Calgary. Regardless, there aren't going to be many people making a night of it from either of those cities.

Nobody has yet answered who is going to broadcast Jets games if Winnipeg got a team back.

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Old
01-20-2005, 05:44 PM
  #75
cneely
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
I have family that used to live the same distance from Winnipeg back when the Jets were still around. They'd go to the occasional game because they said it was incredibly cheap. But if the weather was bad, forget it.
Yeah, some nights its just not possible to travel that distance, but, as I said, several committed to season tickets, so the money's paid, regardless.

Quote:
But will those people pay the same price when tickets aren't so cheap?

And what about nights when the weather is bad?
Some will for sure, and those 2 or 3 nights a year when the roads are hard to travel on, they may miss a game or two.


Quote:
Saskatoon is closer to Calgary then Winnipeg. Regina is marginally closer to Winnipeg then Calgary. Regardless, there aren't going to be many people making a night of it from either of those cities.
Yeah, Saskatoon's pushing it, but I think you underestimate how many NHL fans reside in Regina.

Quote:
Nobody has yet answered who is going to broadcast Jets games if Winnipeg got a team back.
I threw out a possibility back on the first page. It was rumored that the Asper family looked at purchasing the team back when they left Winnipeg. Global may be a good fit.

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