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summit series goaltending

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10-21-2012, 07:25 PM
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leeaf83
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summit series goaltending

So something I've always wondered, was the thought process for the goaltending decision ever explained?

I get that pre series Dryden was considered a step and a half ahead of Esposito and Tony-O only projected to start 2 or 3 of the 11 scheduled games (including sweden and chechoslovakia)
Dryden craps the bed in game 1 so Espo goes in for game 2
Espo plays well in game 2 and gets the next start
Espo plays so-so in game 3 so they give Dryden another shot for the next game
Dryden plays brutal again in game 4
Tony plays the first sweden game and plays well but since sweden is considered the exhibition part of the tourney, Eddie Johnson plays the second game and ties
Espo plays game 5, wasn't brutal but gave up 4 late goals to lose opening the door for Dryden
Dryden plays game 6 and plays outstanding. Since he was deemed the better of the 2 and had a great game, why did they go back to Espo for game 7?
Espo does play game 7 and plays another great game yet they went back to Dryden again for game 8?

not overly noteworthy but Dryden played the Czech game after the series. Somewhat puzzling because they used players who played less in the series, wonder why they didnt start Johnson? I'm not positive about this but Johnson seemed to be the backup for most of the games. I know Espo backed up Dryden for games 1 and 8 and Johnson backed up espo for games 2, 3, and 5. not sure who was on the bench in sweden or the last 3 Russia games or czech.

My other question is why weren't the teams pulling the goalies? game 4 was a 2 goal game with all 4 russia games decided by 1, nobody seemed to go with the extra attackers?

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10-22-2012, 07:06 AM
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Macman
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I can't speak for Canada but the Soviets never pulled goalies for an extra attacker back then.

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10-22-2012, 10:18 AM
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Leafsdude7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeaf83 View Post
My other question is why weren't the teams pulling the goalies? game 4 was a 2 goal game with all 4 russia games decided by 1, nobody seemed to go with the extra attackers?
Actually, game 4 was, for all intents and purposes a 3 goal game. Ellis scored with less than 20 seconds to go to make the final 5-3.

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10-23-2012, 08:42 PM
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Hull scored with 22 seconds left in game 4.

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10-24-2012, 04:32 PM
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Big Phil
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To this day the goaltending situation puzzles me. We didn't know it at the time but Dryden's one knock on his career was that he had a heck of a time figuring out the Russians. He was big and tall and if you caught Dryden going from post to post - which the Russians did the way they passed - you could beat him.

Phil Esposito has always joked that Harry Sinden said that while Dryden would start Game 8 he would pull him if he got in trouble. Well, 5 goals later, he still didn't pull him.

I've always maintained that Tony O was the best of the three goalies who played. He outplayed Tretiak and Dryden for sure. Tretiak was great in the first 4 games and then bad in the last 4. Dryden was awful in the first two games and then sort of redeemed himself in Game 6 and 8. If you watch Game 8 even in the 3rd period you can see Dryden make a few crucial saves, so he bounced back.

But Esposito never really had a bad game. Game 5 wasn't very good but he was in full control until that collapse at the end. Other than that he was solid and the most trustworthy of the three goalies.

Since the games in Moscow were basically do or die for Canada I don't understand either why Sinden rotated the goalies despite each of them having a good game. That rarely works having two number 1 goalies but it did.

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10-26-2012, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
To this day the goaltending situation puzzles me. We didn't know it at the time but Dryden's one knock on his career was that he had a heck of a time figuring out the Russians. He was big and tall and if you caught Dryden going from post to post - which the Russians did the way they passed - you could beat him.

Phil Esposito has always joked that Harry Sinden said that while Dryden would start Game 8 he would pull him if he got in trouble. Well, 5 goals later, he still didn't pull him.

I've always maintained that Tony O was the best of the three goalies who played. He outplayed Tretiak and Dryden for sure. Tretiak was great in the first 4 games and then bad in the last 4. Dryden was awful in the first two games and then sort of redeemed himself in Game 6 and 8. If you watch Game 8 even in the 3rd period you can see Dryden make a few crucial saves, so he bounced back.

But Esposito never really had a bad game. Game 5 wasn't very good but he was in full control until that collapse at the end. Other than that he was solid and the most trustworthy of the three goalies.

Since the games in Moscow were basically do or die for Canada I don't understand either why Sinden rotated the goalies despite each of them having a good game. That rarely works having two number 1 goalies but it did.
If you ignore the games in sweden and the czechs, the only time they went with the same goalie 2 games in a row was games 2 and 3 (Tony).

I guess picture this more contemporary scenario; You're running team USA in an 8 game series against Canada and your goalies are Jonathan Quick and Craig Anderson (lets pretend Ryan Miller is hurt for arguments sake) Pre series your plan is probably give Quick 6, 7, or maybe even all 8 starts (there's also games against sweden and finland in there where you're initial plan is probably to use Anderson there); Quick plays god awful in game 1 so you go to Anderson who plays excellent in game 2. You'll ride the hot guy at the start but as it gets deeper into the series, you'd have to have in the back of your mind that Quick is the guy you'd be more comfortable with if it gets down to a deciding game. And the reason I picked those 2 to compare to was that Quick IS the guy the states would go with now in such a tourney if Millers not available (and rule out Tim Thomas as well); he's won a cup, Anderson hasn't (same deal with Dryden/Espo at the time).

I guess really the only start truly puzzling is why they went with Espo in game 7 with Dryden playing so well in game 6.

Interesting you bring up the 'pulling Dryden' scenario; I wonder why they didnt try that in game 1? My best guess is they knew in game they'd go with Espo the next game so didn't bother sending him in for mop up minutes. Or it was overconfidence, thinking they would come back. Eddie Johnson was the backup for games 2 through 4, as far as I know Dryden did not dress as backup in any games except possibly sweden. Espo was on the bench for game 8 so seems they kept that card in their pocket. I have no idea if this actually happened but in the CBC dramatization of the series, when it was announced game 8 would be happening (remember it was in jeopardy due tot he officiating scandal), Sinden comes out and says "Kenny you're starting.. and finishing"

I agree on your assessment of the netminding; Espo was excellent in games 2 and 7 and so so in games 3 and 5. Canada shut down in game 5, Espo just couldnt bail them out. I'm inclined to call Dryden the worst goalie of the series, 1 great games and 3 bad ones. Tretiak wasn't that great; games 1 and 4 the russians won by a solid margin and game 5 they did fall behind 4-1, in fact he let in 3 or more goals in every game in the series.


To kind of answer my earlier question, maybe canada wasn't pulling the goaltenders either? In the exhibition game against the czechs, they tied 3-3 with canada scoring in the dying seconds but the goalie (Dryden) was in goal still.

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10-26-2012, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeaf83 View Post
If you ignore the games in sweden and the czechs, the only time they went with the same goalie 2 games in a row was games 2 and 3 (Tony).

I guess picture this more contemporary scenario; You're running team USA in an 8 game series against Canada and your goalies are Jonathan Quick and Craig Anderson (lets pretend Ryan Miller is hurt for arguments sake) Pre series your plan is probably give Quick 6, 7, or maybe even all 8 starts (there's also games against sweden and finland in there where you're initial plan is probably to use Anderson there); Quick plays god awful in game 1 so you go to Anderson who plays excellent in game 2. You'll ride the hot guy at the start but as it gets deeper into the series, you'd have to have in the back of your mind that Quick is the guy you'd be more comfortable with if it gets down to a deciding game. And the reason I picked those 2 to compare to was that Quick IS the guy the states would go with now in such a tourney if Millers not available (and rule out Tim Thomas as well); he's won a cup, Anderson hasn't (same deal with Dryden/Espo at the time).

I guess really the only start truly puzzling is why they went with Espo in game 7 with Dryden playing so well in game 6.

Interesting you bring up the 'pulling Dryden' scenario; I wonder why they didnt try that in game 1? My best guess is they knew in game they'd go with Espo the next game so didn't bother sending him in for mop up minutes. Or it was overconfidence, thinking they would come back. Eddie Johnson was the backup for games 2 through 4, as far as I know Dryden did not dress as backup in any games except possibly sweden. Espo was on the bench for game 8 so seems they kept that card in their pocket. I have no idea if this actually happened but in the CBC dramatization of the series, when it was announced game 8 would be happening (remember it was in jeopardy due tot he officiating scandal), Sinden comes out and says "Kenny you're starting.. and finishing"

I agree on your assessment of the netminding; Espo was excellent in games 2 and 7 and so so in games 3 and 5. Canada shut down in game 5, Espo just couldnt bail them out. I'm inclined to call Dryden the worst goalie of the series, 1 great games and 3 bad ones. Tretiak wasn't that great; games 1 and 4 the russians won by a solid margin and game 5 they did fall behind 4-1, in fact he let in 3 or more goals in every game in the series.


To kind of answer my earlier question, maybe canada wasn't pulling the goaltenders either? In the exhibition game against the czechs, they tied 3-3 with canada scoring in the dying seconds but the goalie (Dryden) was in goal still.
As strange as it may sound now, but Canada (and the NHL) was sort of in a transition mode for goalies at that time. Not that there weren't any great ones available but rather the old guard was gone. Hall had retired. Plante was old. Sawchuk was dead. Parent hadn't hit his stride yet, Vachon had gotten bumped for Dryden and probably wasn't considered to be a worthy starter at the time.

That left just two long term veterans - Cheevers and Giacomin - available. Cheevers was in the WHA and Giacomin was hurt. Both had played in the 1972 Stanley Cup final. This left Canada with Dryden, fresh off a Calder trophy win and Esposito with just three full NHL seasons under his belt. In reality, the Canadian goalies didn't have a whole lot of experience between each other. Eddie Johnston was old at that time and a Cup winner, but certainly not at the same level as the other two.

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