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Off-season Armchair GM Thread Part IX

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Old
08-23-2012, 06:53 PM
  #251
hockeyball
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The different era argument does not hold a lot of water with me. I agree, in baseball, where you actually have to hit the ball farther to get a home run, its a big difference.

If Bobby Orr played in todays game he would still be the best defensemen in the game, and likely the best player. Even if he played against weaker competition (which I don't totally agree with, the game was simply different then) he utterly dominated that competition. It could be argued, that if he played today he would face greater competition and thus raise his game even further to match it.

Bobby Orr was an amazing skater, a tough guy, the best defensive defensemen in the game and the best offensive defensemen in the game. On top of that he was the best goal scorer and one of the best point producers. He wasn't just good at everything, he was amazing at everything. No one in today's game even comes close to his dominance, and to slight him by saying "you played against worse players" is unfair. His greatest asset was his vision and that has nothing to do with athleticism.

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08-23-2012, 07:03 PM
  #252
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That's great but Couture is already a better player than Marleau...so there's that. Marleau isn't even a #1 center. He sucks at center.

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08-23-2012, 07:12 PM
  #253
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I think I'm done with this thread for a while ... you weirdos


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08-23-2012, 07:22 PM
  #254
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This off-season suuuuuuuuuuuuucks. Both Parise and Suter signed God knows where, Weber is still in Nashville, now Doan will re-sign back in Phoenix and it's like the off-season never happened.

I guess there's Nash but who cares...

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08-23-2012, 07:26 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
This off-season suuuuuuuuuuuuucks. Both Parise and Suter signed God knows where, Weber is still in Nashville, now Doan will re-sign back in Phoenix and it's like the off-season never happened.

I guess there's Nash but who cares...
And we got Adam Burish!



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08-23-2012, 08:00 PM
  #256
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The different era argument does not hold a lot of water with me. I agree, in baseball, where you actually have to hit the ball farther to get a home run, its a big difference.

If Bobby Orr played in todays game he would still be the best defensemen in the game, and likely the best player. Even if he played against weaker competition (which I don't totally agree with, the game was simply different then) he utterly dominated that competition. It could be argued, that if he played today he would face greater competition and thus raise his game even further to match it.

Bobby Orr was an amazing skater, a tough guy, the best defensive defensemen in the game and the best offensive defensemen in the game. On top of that he was the best goal scorer and one of the best point producers. He wasn't just good at everything, he was amazing at everything. No one in today's game even comes close to his dominance, and to slight him by saying "you played against worse players" is unfair. His greatest asset was his vision and that has nothing to do with athleticism.
This just makes me wonder if you have ever seen any hockey older than 10-15 years ago. I seriously doubt it. The skating ability and goaltending in the 80's and early 90's was incredibly weak compared to now. It's not even close. Not to mention the total strength/athleticism is not even comparable.

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08-23-2012, 08:26 PM
  #257
Hatrick Marleau
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
That's great but Couture is already a better player than Marleau...so there's that. Marleau isn't even a #1 center. He sucks at center.
Are you serious???

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08-23-2012, 08:41 PM
  #258
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I like Couture but i doubt he'll ever be an elite player. We'll see what happens when Thornton's gone and the top d-pairing focuses on Couture. He really needs to work on getting stronger and improve his skating as much as he can. He's a good all-around player but he's not really spectacular at any one thing.

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08-23-2012, 08:44 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
Are you serious???
Yes. He's far superior defensively, a way better passer and Patty is better suited to play wing. I don't think I can hack seeing anymore of those drop passes to nobody, cross ice passes that 5 feet behind the receiver, or him get abused defensively when getting matched up against other top tier lines... like against the wings all those years.

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08-23-2012, 08:54 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Yes. He's far superior defensively, a way better passer and Patty is better suited to play wing. I don't think I can hack seeing anymore of those drop passes to nobody, cross ice passes that 5 feet behind the receiver, or him get abused defensively when getting matched up against other top tier lines... like against the wings all those years.
Couture is not anywhere as good as Marleau defensively and isn't a better passer either. Marleau is a better center than Couture will ever be. I think Marleau is actually better as a center IMO.

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08-23-2012, 09:28 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
This just makes me wonder if you have ever seen any hockey older than 10-15 years ago. I seriously doubt it. The skating ability and goaltending in the 80's and early 90's was incredibly weak compared to now. It's not even close. Not to mention the total strength/athleticism is not even comparable.
Way to completely miss the point of my post. Good work.

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08-23-2012, 09:29 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Yes. He's far superior defensively, a way better passer and Patty is better suited to play wing. I don't think I can hack seeing anymore of those drop passes to nobody, cross ice passes that 5 feet behind the receiver, or him get abused defensively when getting matched up against other top tier lines... like against the wings all those years.
Couture is not far superior defensively, nor is he a way better passer. Also Couture gets much more heavily abused against top tier competition than Patty.

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08-23-2012, 09:29 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
This just makes me wonder if you have ever seen any hockey older than 10-15 years ago. I seriously doubt it. The skating ability and goaltending in the 80's and early 90's was incredibly weak compared to now. It's not even close. Not to mention the total strength/athleticism is not even comparable.
i don't think you'll convince him to change his opinion, though i agree. it's a pov that always comes from older sports fan - my favorite player growing up is way better than your favorite player growing up (or something like that). probably driven more by nostalgia and emotions than actual logic. the '92 olympic "dream team" vs the 2012 olympic team was another one of those discussions. in the last 20/30 years athletes have gotten so much stronger, faster, better prepared at younger ages. the better conditioning, training, and new developments in nutrition, sports equipment are enough to turn a 60s/70s superstar into just another star in the 2000s - if not worse.

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08-23-2012, 09:32 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
Couture is not far superior defensively, nor is he a way better passer. Also Couture gets much more heavily abused against top tier competition than Patty.
marleau definitely deserves more credit. he puts up the same or better offensive numbers while playing against top lines and not being reduced to rubble in april.

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08-23-2012, 10:09 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
This just makes me wonder if you have ever seen any hockey older than 10-15 years ago. I seriously doubt it. The skating ability and goaltending in the 80's and early 90's was incredibly weak compared to now. It's not even close. Not to mention the total strength/athleticism is not even comparable.
Right, which is why players like Raymond Bourque and Teemu Selanne have only achieved success in a single era. And why when Mario Lemieux came back to the clutch-and-grab NHL, he struggled to put up a decent season.

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08-23-2012, 10:10 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
i don't think you'll convince him to change his opinion, though i agree. it's a pov that always comes from older sports fan - my favorite player growing up is way better than your favorite player growing up (or something like that). probably driven more by nostalgia and emotions than actual logic. the '92 olympic "dream team" vs the 2012 olympic team was another one of those discussions. in the last 20/30 years athletes have gotten so much stronger, faster, better prepared at younger ages. the better conditioning, training, and new developments in nutrition, sports equipment are enough to turn a 60s/70s superstar into just another star in the 2000s - if not worse.
It is not necessarily "better", it is greater.

I hav emore knowledge of physics than Einstein. Doesn't make me greater than him. And to say I was "better" than him would be looking at it through a very narrow definition of the word.

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08-23-2012, 10:11 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
This just makes me wonder if you have ever seen any hockey older than 10-15 years ago. I seriously doubt it. The skating ability and goaltending in the 80's and early 90's was incredibly weak compared to now. It's not even close. Not to mention the total strength/athleticism is not even comparable.
This comments make me wonder if you appreciate and factor in that the 80's and 90's were part of the clutch-and-grab era, and also had the two line pass rule in effect.

Of course skating looks better now without that stuff in the NHL anymore.

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08-23-2012, 10:12 PM
  #268
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Given that rollback of salaries and potentially length of contract are likely to come out of a new CBA (whenever they agree to one), and were likely leading up to this point, at what point do the Wild look like geniuses and other GM's don't for signing those massive Suter/Parise deals right before a near-certain rollback of salary and term?
Anyone care to weigh in? Everyone said DW was smart for not giving Suter/Parise 13 years at ridiculous cost, but when it's rolled back and cut down to a 5 year contract or something, DW will look stupid because you think these GM's knew these kind of rollbacks on term and salary were coming with a new CBA given league dynamics so this offseason in fact this was the ideal time to hand out big contracts, not the worst (starting to become MHO).

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08-23-2012, 10:14 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
This is the Wilt Chamberlin vs. Jordan debate. It's different. One was more dominant against lesser competition the other was tremendous against very good competition.

For my money Lidstrom is the greatest Hockey player of all time.
Nick Lidstrom? Nick-freaking Lidstrom? There are goddman contemporary players that are better than him. Forsberg? Bourque? Hasek? Roy? Jagr? Lemieux?

My god.

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08-23-2012, 10:20 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I agree, in baseball, where you actually have to hit the ball farther to get a home run, its a big difference.

If Bobby Orr played in todays game he would still be the best defensemen in the game, and likely the best player. Even if he played against weaker competition (which I don't totally agree with, the game was simply different then) he utterly dominated that competition. It could be argued, that if he played today he would face greater competition and thus raise his game even further to match it.

Bobby Orr was an amazing skater, a tough guy, the best defensive defensemen in the game and the best offensive defensemen in the game. On top of that he was the best goal scorer and one of the best point producers. He wasn't just good at everything, he was amazing at everything. No one in today's game even comes close to his dominance, and to slight him by saying "you played against worse players" is unfair. His greatest asset was his vision and that has nothing to do with athleticism.
I definitely think Orr would be one of the greats now, though the best is a matter than can be debated. There's really no definitive answer. I do think that the athleticism is better now, but not by a huge margin as some think. It's just debatable with too many variables.

Also, parks have mostly been getting smaller over the years. In the 20s and 30s there were many parks that would make AT&T look like a bandbox. I mean, look at the dimensions of the polo grounds... There was a point where the average CF fence was 450 feet from home plate.

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08-23-2012, 10:22 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
Couture is not anywhere as good as Marleau defensively and isn't a better passer either. Marleau is a better center than Couture will ever be. I think Marleau is actually better as a center IMO.
Hmmm Couture has played 184 games so far and has 130 points
Marleau in 236 games (first 3 seasons) had 117 lol. 52 more games 13 less points.

"Marleau better than Couture will ever be" It's closer than you think.
Also, there is a reason Marleau was the one who got bumped from center. He can't pass and he get's eatin alive by elite forwards... especially in big games.

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08-23-2012, 10:30 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Hmmm Couture has played 184 games so far and has 130 points
Marleau in 236 games (first 3 seasons) had 117 lol. 52 more games 13 less points.

"Marleau better than Couture will ever be" It's closer than you think.
Also, there is a reason Marleau was the one who got bumped from center. He can't pass and he get's eatin alive by elite forwards... especially in big games.
A big difference is that young Marleau relied on speed and developed amazing fundamentals to go along with his elite size and speed combo as he got older. Logan Couture has great fundamentals right now and isn't big or fast leading many to question his overall room for growth.

I think Couture will develop to be a better scorer than Marleau (and yes, that's very good), but Marleau's skating and size allow him to do things that Couture won't ever be able to do.

And the reason that Marleau got moved is our 12847129847129 centers, and Marleau's versatility. I remember back when Sturm and Marleau switched C and W positions way back when...

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08-23-2012, 10:30 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
This comments make me wonder if you appreciate and factor in that the 80's and 90's were part of the clutch-and-grab era, and also had the two line pass rule in effect.

Of course skating looks better now without that stuff in the NHL anymore.
How many of Gretzky's goals were slapshots on breakaways? Seriously, he scored countless goals like that. You can't score like that now. Why? .. because the goalies actually have some ability these days and aren't just Canadians that aren't good enough to play forward or D.

I know clutch and grab all too well. Players like Derien Hatcher made a career out of that garbage and shouldn't have even been in the NHL. I think it's safe to say he wouldn't be near any roster now. He's an example of how poor some of the players were then.

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08-23-2012, 10:41 PM
  #274
Hatrick Marleau
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Hmmm Couture has played 184 games so far and has 130 points
Marleau in 236 games (first 3 seasons) had 117 lol. 52 more games 13 less points.

"Marleau better than Couture will ever be" It's closer than you think.
Also, there is a reason Marleau was the one who got bumped from center. He can't pass and he get's eatin alive by elite forwards... especially in big games.
Who was Marleau playing with? Was he playing on a cup contender? Was he playing with Allstars? Marleau came into the league at 18. Couture came into the league at 21 and was playing with Allstars on a playoff team. Who do you think would have more points in their first 3 seasons?

It is not closer than you think. Marleau was bumped from center because we got Joe Thornton and he had good Chemistry with Jumbo.

Your last sentence is completely false. He isn't the best passer in the league but he is good at. I've seen him make quite a few great passes. He doesn't get eaten alive by elite fowards in big games. He averages just below .70PPG in the playoffs, which is pretty good. He was our only player scoring for us in the WCF the last two years. Those are big games.

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08-23-2012, 10:56 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Hmmm Couture has played 184 games so far and has 130 points
Marleau in 236 games (first 3 seasons) had 117 lol. 52 more games 13 less points.

"Marleau better than Couture will ever be" It's closer than you think.
Also, there is a reason Marleau was the one who got bumped from center. He can't pass and he get's eatin alive by elite forwards... especially in big games.
It's funny because Couture rarely plays against the best the other team offers while Marleau usually does.

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