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Old
08-17-2012, 11:08 PM
  #201
hohosaregood
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Originally Posted by Patty Ice View Post
Then why don't you explain that comment because it seems a lot of us...myself included...seem to miss your point of calling Kadri a bust prospect.
Does it have something to do with people calling Couture a bust at that age?

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08-17-2012, 11:10 PM
  #202
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No interest in Niemi at all, especially if it means Nazem Kadri going the other way.

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08-17-2012, 11:16 PM
  #203
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Absolutely brutal for the Sharks. We give up a top-6 power forward, #1 goalie, and a top-10 offensive defensemen in the league. We get, Luongo (a goalie who i don't see as an upgrade at all, he costs more, for longer, and in a similar situation has failed to win a cup where Niemi did), a forward prospect that cannot break into a non-playoff teams roster, let alone the Sharks roster, and a quality 3rd liner...

I really don't think you thought that through. We don't want Luongo, even for free, so his value is zero in that trade, and Kadri + Hansen is laughable for Niemi, Boyle, Clowe...

Seriously? I dont know many on here who would take niemi over roberto. I am no roberto fan, even though I am a canucks fan I am one of his harshest critics, but I take him over niemi any day. Niemi winning the cup had way more to do with the team in front of him.

Clowe for hansen I would say is fair as well, I actually dont think I would do that from a canucks perspective, hansen is great all around player, very fast, and plays physical, at 1.3 million. And I like clowe. Although it would be close. Clowe is considerably more expensive for someone who had similar numbers to hansen last season and hansen was playing 3rd line minutes.

I do agree with the 1st and boyle leaving is where it went down hill for san jose... would be more interesting if those two pieces were left out.


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Old
08-17-2012, 11:27 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Orca Smash View Post
Seriously? I dont know many on here who would take niemi over roberto. I am no roberto fan, even though I am a canucks fan I am one of his harshest critics, but I take him over niemi any day. Niemi winning the cup had way more to do with the team in front of him.

Clowe for hansen I would say is fair as well, I actually dont think I would do that from a canucks perspective, hansen is great all around player, very fast, and plays physical, at 1.3 million. And I like clowe. Although it would be close. Clowe is considerably more expensive for someone who had similar numbers to hansen last season and hansen was playing 3rd line minutes.

I do agree with the 1st and boyle leaving is where it went down hill for san jose... would be more interesting if those two pieces were left out.
Can say the same about Lou in the Olympics.

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08-17-2012, 11:35 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Perhaps that was a bit wrong of me, but I stand by Luongo>Boyle, and Clowe>Hansen. Valuewis I think their fair. If Wilson doesn't want to acquire these contracts out of principle, then I guess there's not much else to talk about.
In general, a top end d-man is much more valuable than a top end goalie at this stage. Goalies are much easier to replace and replicate in terms of production than defensemen. In terms of age and contracts, they're a wash. In terms of what they bring to the team, Boyle trumps Luongo. Luongo is obviously replaceable as Schneider has pretty much unseated him as the man in Vancouver. Boyle has Burns right behind him and Boyle still gets the prime time minutes and opportunities. That should be good enough right there to refute your valuation with regards to Luongo and Boyle.

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08-17-2012, 11:38 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
Can say the same about Lou in the Olympics.
Okay. But the Gold isn't why Luongo's a great goalie(although that's why he was chosen to play for Canada)

It's because his career both on paper and to anyone whose watched them Luonho is obviously better.

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08-17-2012, 11:43 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
In general, a top end d-man is much more valuable than a top end goalie at this stage. Goalies are much easier to replace and replicate in terms of production than defensemen. In terms of age and contracts, they're a wash. In terms of what they bring to the team, Boyle trumps Luongo. Luongo is obviously replaceable as Schneider has pretty much unseated him as the man in Vancouver. Boyle has Burns right behind him and Boyle still gets the prime time minutes and opportunities. That should be good enough right there to refute your valuation with regards to Luongo and Boyle.
I believe one goaltender has a much bigger impact on a game than one defenseman.

Comparing Boyle not being unseated by Burns is absurd. Firstly, only one goalie can play at once, while I'd assume Burns and Boyle get fairly similar ice time. If the Sharks had to trade one of them, which would it be? Boyle, even though he's better now.

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08-17-2012, 11:47 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Patty Ice View Post
Then why don't you explain that comment because it seems a lot of us...myself included...seem to miss your point of calling Kadri a bust prospect.
hockeyball already took care of that...

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The Kadri bust comment was said by another poster in response to similar ridiculous statements made about the Sharks.

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08-17-2012, 11:56 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Comparing Boyle not being unseated by Burns is absurd. Firstly, only one goalie can play at once, while I'd assume Burns and Boyle get fairly similar ice time. If the Sharks had to trade one of them, which would it be? Boyle, even though he's better now.
You still need to find someone to take over Boyle's 25-26 minutes a game. You can shift some of that responsibility to Burns, but the next righties we have are Demers and Braun, who haven't proved themselves as consistent 2nd pairing puck movers yet. I really don't think you comprehend the impact Boyle makes.

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08-18-2012, 12:01 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
You still need to find someone to take over Boyle's 25-26 minutes a game. You can shift some of that responsibility to Burns, but the next righties we have are Demers and Braun, who haven't proved themselves as consistent 2nd pairing puck movers yet. I really don't think you comprehend the impact Boyle makes.
Yes, I did underestimate how much you need him. I had assumed that Boyle was on the block because you had some young defensemen ready to step up into a top 4 role, as well as adding Stuart. If that's not enough, and us adding, say Ballard or to help absorb minutes isn't enough, then I don't see how a trade can be worked out that includes Boyle.

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08-18-2012, 12:05 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Yes, I did underestimate how much you need him. I had assumed that Boyle was on the block because you had some young defensemen ready to step up into a top 4 role, as well as adding Stuart. If that's not enough, and us adding, say Ballard or to help absorb minutes isn't enough, then I don't see how a trade can be worked out that includes Boyle.
We have no interest in downgrading Boyle to another defenseman like Ballard unless we are getting a top-6 forward. We were 5th in the league in 5v5 GA with Colin White instead of Brad Stuart; we don't need help in goal or on defense.

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08-18-2012, 12:06 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I believe one goaltender has a much bigger impact on a game than one defenseman.

Comparing Boyle not being unseated by Burns is absurd. Firstly, only one goalie can play at once, while I'd assume Burns and Boyle get fairly similar ice time. If the Sharks had to trade one of them, which would it be? Boyle, even though he's better now.
That makes it even more obvious who is really more valuable. Burns gets many more opportunities to do the job than Schneider yet Schneider did it and Burns hasn't. A goalie CAN have a bigger impact but it doesn't do much for their trade value because there are limited spots and a decent amount of options to fill those spots. A goalie can also be very protected by the team in front of him. Antti Niemi, Michael Leighton, Chris Osgood, and Mike Smith are very good examples of how you don't need elite level goaltending to win in this league.

And the Sharks don't HAVE to trade Burns or Boyle. The Canucks are in a position where it is in their best interests to trade Luongo due to his request. A younger Luongo arguably didn't get as much as what you think he's worth now that he's been effectively replaced as a starter.

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08-18-2012, 12:10 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Okay. But the Gold isn't why Luongo's a great goalie(although that's why he was chosen to play for Canada)

It's because his career both on paper and to anyone whose watched them Luonho is obviously better.
I have watched both. Extensively at that. Living in Vancouver I see a lot of the games. But what I am saying the argument of Niemi's team was great in front of him is the reason he won the stanley cup is moot, because an equal argument can be made for the god-like team in front of Lou in the olympics. That is all.

Lou is a better goalie then Niemi, all day, everyday. No question. Is Lou enough of an upgrade to fill the hole of losing 2 core players? In my opinion no. All the Canuck fans point out valid points of why Lou's contract is friendly and ok, but those reasons only apply to teams who are sitting pretty financially. If I tried to sell you a car by telling you it is a 10 year lease, and the payments on the car would be $533 per month. But for the first 6 years though you would have pay more like $674 per month. But don't worry because for the last 4 years your payments would be less then average of your lease payments. If that sounds bad don't worry, because if you don't want to keep the car past 6 years you can just park it and it will barely cost you anything, or you can sell it because now that its actually cheaper someone will buy it. It will sound stupid. The point is even though 16 million dollars of the contract out, you are expecting a team in a non hockey market to take on 40 million for 6 years. And then if you don't want him at the end of the 6 years just pay him not to perform for you. It doesn't work for some teams. Teams like Toronto (not saying the want him) can afford to pay him, but teams like SJ can't and won't take a risk. All in my opinion.

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08-18-2012, 12:10 AM
  #214
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Apologies to Sharks fans.

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08-18-2012, 12:13 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
That makes it even more obvious who is really more valuable. Burns gets many more opportunities to do the job than Schneider yet Schneider did it and Burns hasn't. A goalie CAN have a bigger impact but it doesn't do much for their trade value because there are limited spots and a decent amount of options to fill those spots. A goalie can also be very protected by the team in front of him. Antti Niemi, Michael Leighton, Chris Osgood, and Mike Smith are very good examples of how you don't need elite level goaltending to win in this league.

And the Sharks don't HAVE to trade Burns or Boyle. The Canucks are in a position where it is in their best interests to trade Luongo due to his request. A younger Luongo arguably didn't get as much as what you think he's worth now that he's been effectively replaced as a starter.
I still don't see how Boyle-Burns is a valid comparison. For all you know, Luongo>Boyle and Schneider>>Burns. And Luongo plays on a very offense-oriented team. Hamhuis and maybe Tanev are our only defensive dmen, yet we still have a low GAA.

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08-18-2012, 12:19 AM
  #216
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I have watched both. Extensively at that. Living in Vancouver I see a lot of the games. But what I am saying the argument of Niemi's team was great in front of him is the reason he won the stanley cup is moot, because an equal argument can be made for the god-like team in front of Lou in the olympics. That is all.

Lou is a better goalie then Niemi, all day, everyday. No question. Is Lou enough of an upgrade to fill the hole of losing 2 core players? In my opinion no. All the Canuck fans point out valid points of why Lou's contract is friendly and ok, but those reasons only apply to teams who are sitting pretty financially. If I tried to sell you a car by telling you it is a 10 year lease, and the payments on the car would be $533 per month. But for the first 6 years though you would have pay more like $674 per month. But don't worry because for the last 4 years your payments would be less then average of your lease payments. If that sounds bad don't worry, because if you don't want to keep the car past 6 years you can just park it and it will barely cost you anything, or you can sell it because now that its actually cheaper someone will buy it. It will sound stupid. The point is even though 16 million dollars of the contract out, you are expecting a team in a non hockey market to take on 40 million for 6 years. And then if you don't want him at the end of the 6 years just pay him not to perform for you. It doesn't work for some teams. Teams like Toronto (not saying the want him) can afford to pay him, but teams like SJ can't and won't take a risk. All in my opinion.
The car comparison doesn't really make sense, as it fails to take into account the value of having an elite goalie ar a discount, or that cap floor teams may want Luongo's contract if he refuses to retire and the Sharks can't afford 1 mil a year(after factoring in the rise in revenues and the ver likely impact of revenue sharing).

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08-18-2012, 12:30 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I still don't see how Boyle-Burns is a valid comparison. For all you know, Luongo>Boyle and Schneider>>Burns. And Luongo plays on a very offense-oriented team. Hamhuis and maybe Tanev are our only defensive dmen, yet we still have a low GAA.
"For all you know" assumes that I don't know about the players being discussed. If you fail to see the validity of the comparison then your comparison, for all you know, is equally invalid. The only good defensive defenseman that the Sharks had last year was Vlasic and yet the Sharks had a low GAA too.

A goalie that is on the block because someone else is now seen as the guy going forward hurts the goalie's trade value...plain and simple. That is not an issue with Dan Boyle. That is the issue with Luongo who also has the caveat of requesting a trade which never helps trade value either. Add on to it that we are halfway through August and there are limited trade partners for Vancouver to move Luongo and his unfriendly contract, and your value argument is sunk.

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08-18-2012, 12:35 AM
  #218
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The car comparison doesn't really make sense, as it fails to take into account the value of having an elite goalie ar a discount, or that cap floor teams may want Luongo's contract if he refuses to retire and the Sharks can't afford 1 mil a year(after factoring in the rise in revenues and the ver likely impact of revenue sharing).
The main point is a cap floor team MAY want him. Risk reward is what your trying to say. But at this juncture SJ is not willing to take the risk.

The car analogy makes the point that no matter how good the car is, if you have to pay more with the possibility of it working out or if it doesn't parking it doesn't make financial sense. You are expecting a team to pay out more than 2/3 the contract just to trade him or bury him at the point where he makes less money. Regardless of wins or stanley cups, if it financially doesn't make sense that is the most important thing. Regardless of what the us the fans think.

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08-18-2012, 12:45 AM
  #219
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Goalie is the most overrated position, Canucks should just give away Luongo for the cap space it would save them.

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08-18-2012, 12:55 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
The car comparison doesn't really make sense, as it fails to take into account the value of having an elite goalie ar a discount, or that cap floor teams may want Luongo's contract if he refuses to retire and the Sharks can't afford 1 mil a year(after factoring in the rise in revenues and the ver likely impact of revenue sharing).
What your not getting is this was a contract specifically designed to benefit Vancouver and keep Luongo in Vancouver a long time. Nobody really wants to touch his contract. It scares the **** out of us.

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08-18-2012, 01:00 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I still don't see how Boyle-Burns is a valid comparison. For all you know, Luongo>Boyle and Schneider>>Burns. And Luongo plays on a very offense-oriented team. Hamhuis and maybe Tanev are our only defensive dmen, yet we still have a low GAA.
Boyle will makes our team better than what it would be if we lost him and got Luongo. Burns>>>Schnieder. Burns is a proven #1/2 dman, while Schnieder hasn't proved to be a starter. Anyway, we don't need a goal. We were very good defensively last year. We need to improve our scoring.

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08-18-2012, 02:40 AM
  #222
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I'm not too familiar with the Sharks defense, but surely there's more than one puck mover on your team?
Puck-mover from the back end, ready to play 25 minutes, right-handed shot? Nope, can't say the Sharks have a backup. There's potential, but no one has shown enough to make Boyle the least bit expendable at this point.

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08-18-2012, 02:48 AM
  #223
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Really Niemi has been pretty good with the sharks and hasn't been the reason we have been knocked out these past two seasons.

Against van in 2011 being undisciplined and making too many mental mistakes was the biggest problem (along with playing a very good team that took advantage of their chances). Game 4 where Niemi had a horrible save percentage is the best example of this. Van only got 13 shots in the game but scored 3 5-3 goals all with goals within 16 seconds of the sharks taking the second penalty. Our passive PK was picked apart and Niemi got beat. If the sharks didn't march into the penalty box or help Niemi that game may have gone differently.

The other thing that changed the series was vancouver was clutch when it mattered in the series. Most of the games were close going into the third period. Van game back in game 1, Sharks were morons in game 2, Van made it close in game 3 after the sharks started well, game 4 the sharks played well but 4 bad minutes killed us, and game 5 had the stanchion bounce in overtime. If the little things were done differently it may have been a different series. Overall Niemi while not stealing the series gave the sharks a chance to win.


Against St. Louis the main problem was our offense getting shut down and a passive pk that the Blues beat easily. Niemi played well but the thing we needed was better coaching. Mentally the blues were better.

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08-18-2012, 10:13 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Yes, I did underestimate how much you need him. I had assumed that Boyle was on the block because you had some young defensemen ready to step up into a top 4 role, as well as adding Stuart. If that's not enough, and us adding, say Ballard or to help absorb minutes isn't enough, then I don't see how a trade can be worked out that includes Boyle.
oh no, what a shame, we'll have to keep boyle instead of dealing him to a rival...


i'll offer couture+clowe+boyle+5 1sts to make sure that we get Luongo and include Boyle, because we know longer want him...




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08-18-2012, 11:19 AM
  #225
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To San Jose:
Roberto Luongo
Jannik Hansen
Nazem Kadri

To Toronto:
Antti Niemi

To Vancouver:
Ryan Clowe
Dan Boyle
San Jose 1st

Vancouver gets tougher and adds a legit number 1 dman, as well as getting a 1st to help stovk up on prospects.(It stinks to lose Hansen, but I doubt it would fly if we used Raymond)

San Jose gets an upgrade in goal and an infusion of youth/skill/speed.

Toronto gets a starting goaltender.

Thoughts?
Lol if burke traded kadri for anything less than a bonifide #1 starter I would be dissapointed. Niemi isn't much of an upgrade if at all over Reimer, + his chicago team wqas amazing...

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