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Gorges to the Caps

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Old
08-22-2012, 03:01 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I would like to know how? He doesn't hit as much, block as many shots, play as many minutes against the toughest opponents, how is he better than Gorges "right now"? What has he done better than what Gorges is doing "right now"? I am truly curious.
Actually... he plays tougher minutes than Gorges. Had a much worse goalie behind him. And with all of this, was the #1 on a playoff team, while Gorges was... on the team that got the 3rd overall pick.

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08-22-2012, 03:09 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Is there something wrong with you? That 33 year old winger would have been 2nd on your team in goals and points right behind Ovechkin. As far as getting Alzner and a 1st for Gorges and Cole, I would laugh that off in an instant.

They both played 82 games last year. Alzner had one more point than Gorges, was +2 LESS than Gorges (in +/- category), Alzner had 57 LESS hits, Alzner had 111 LESS blocked shots, and Alzner had a WORSE giveaway to takeaway ratio than Gorges by 10! I would like someone to explain to me why Alzner is suddenly worth Gorges ++!! I could mention Gorges' intangibles, his Captaincy qualities, his constant push to go forward, his ability to play through pain, his willingness to stand up for team mates, but that might be a bit of overkill. Alzner IS 5 years younger, 2 inches taller, 13 pounds heavier, and has a better contract for now. What the heck else has Alzner done to even be worth Gorges, screw adding anything significant?!?! We have to give a veteran defensive defenceman in his prime, who is better in all aspects of the game except for points, weight, height, and age, and WE have to add?!?!? To get a younger version of what we have in the hopes that he will develop into what we already have.
Alzner is the only NHL defenseman to be in the top 20 in Corsi Rel QoC, while also being top 20 in Quality of Competition and bottom 20 in Quality of Teammates and Offensive Zone Start % (I'd link but I'm on my phone and I'm lazy). Despite being played in such a heavily defensive role, he led the Caps in +/-. He shut down Boston and New York's top lines in last years playoffs. And he did all of this in his second NHL season. Somehow, no one's noticed outside of DC.

(For reference, Gorges has a slight edge in Corsi Rel QoC and Quality of Competition, but has about 3% more offensive zone starts and significantly better teammates.)


Last edited by Zoidberg Jesus: 08-22-2012 at 03:20 PM.
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08-22-2012, 03:17 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
Actually... he plays tougher minutes than Gorges. Had a much worse goalie behind him. And with all of this, was the #1 on a playoff team, while Gorges was... on the team that got the 3rd overall pick.
No, Alzner doesn't play tougher minutes than Gorges. Gorges plays against the toughest opponents at ES and on the PK. He played 144 more minutes over the course of the season. Gorges does not draw the easy assignments.

By the way, trying to imply that Gorges is worse than Alzner because Alzner was on a playoff team and Gorges was on the 3rd worse team in the league is as childish and silly as me saying that Jeff Carter is better than Ovechkin because Carter has a Cup ring and Ovechkin doesn't.

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08-22-2012, 03:22 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
Alzner is the only NHL defenseman to be in the top 20 in Corsi Rel QoC, while also being top 20 in Quality of Competition and bottom 20 in Quality of Teammates and Offensive Zone Start % (I'd link but I'm on my phone and I'm lazy). Despite being played in such a heavily defensive role, he led the Caps in +/-. He shut down Boston and New York's top lines in last years playoffs. And he did all of this in his second NHL season. Somehow, no one's noticed outside of DC.
Do not get me wrong. I have noticed how well Alzner has played. He is a great young defenceman who would look great in a Habs jersey. He is not at Gorges' level, yet. He might become better than Gorges, he might exact Gorges, or end up worse. So, there is no real incentive to send Gorges AND Cole to the Caps for a late 1st round pick and a younger version of what Gorges already is.

By the way, if you could send that link to me at some point, I would love to read it. Seriously!

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08-22-2012, 03:22 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
Alzner is the only NHL defenseman to be in the top 20 in Corsi Rel QoC, while also being top 20 in Quality of Competition and bottom 20 in Quality of Teammates and Offensive Zone Start % (I'd link but I'm on my phone and I'm lazy). Despite being played in such a heavily defensive role, he led the Caps in +/-. He shut down Boston and New York's top lines in last years playoffs. And he did all of this in his second NHL season. Somehow, no one's noticed outside of DC.

(For reference, Gorges has a slight edge in Corsi Rel QoC and Quality of Competition, but has about 3% more offensive zone starts and significantly better teammates.)
So your argument is that Gorges has significantly better linemates? Sorry, but Alzner is not better than Gorges right now. Gorges has beaten Alzner across the board. Alzner may very well be better in the future, but not based on what we've seen right now.

And nobody realized Alzner is good player outside DC? He finished 42 on HFboards top 50 ranking of D. Gorges narrowly missed out on the list. Now who's being underrated?

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08-22-2012, 03:45 PM
  #131
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I can't believe Habs fans actually think Alzner is worse than Gorges.

I guess they pay so little attention to players outside of their own team, they didn't even bother to watch Alzner in the playoffs.

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08-22-2012, 03:48 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Do not get me wrong. I have noticed how well Alzner has played. He is a great young defenceman who would look great in a Habs jersey. He is not at Gorges' level, yet. He might become better than Gorges, he might exact Gorges, or end up worse. So, there is no real incentive to send Gorges AND Cole to the Caps for a late 1st round pick and a younger version of what Gorges already is.

By the way, if you could send that link to me at some point, I would love to read it. Seriously!
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
So your argument is that Gorges has significantly better linemates? Sorry, but Alzner is not better than Gorges right now. Gorges has beaten Alzner across the board. Alzner may very well be better in the future, but not based on what we've seen right now.

And nobody realized Alzner is good player outside DC? He finished 42 on HFboards top 50 ranking of D. Gorges narrowly missed out on the list. Now who's being underrated?
My point was that they're both playing extremely difficult minutes and excelling in that role. Who's excelling better right now? That's impossible to say. But the fact that Alzner is doing it in his 2nd year in the NHL, when he still has some developing to do, suggests to me that he has the higher trade value.

I had no idea Gorges didn't make the top 50 in that poll. That's ridiculous, and just helps prove my point. Shutdown defensemen without a significant physical aspect to their game get severely underrated around here.

As for my source, the QoC, QoT, and Corsi Rel QoC can be found here, while the zone starts are here. BTN is a great resource for going beyond points in evaluating players.

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08-22-2012, 03:53 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
I can't believe Habs fans actually think Alzner is worse than Gorges.

I guess they pay so little attention to players outside of their own team, they didn't even bother to watch Alzner in the playoffs.
So much homerision in this post.Talk about paying so little attention to players outside of their own team .

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08-22-2012, 03:58 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Maybe if something better than crap was offered, he wouldn't be untouchable.

Gorges is the heart and soul of the team. He's become a fan favourite, plays hard minutes, and probably the most consistent player on the team. He's our best player, no doubt.
Bet Gorges was never captain of the Kelowna Rockets.

I would venture to say last year was the first year that Gorges played "hard minutes" all season. Because..............

# 1: He was out of the lineup for half of the 2010-2011 season along with Andrei Markov yet the Habs still made the playoffs.

# 2: There was another d-man playing the "hard minutes" all season in 2009 - 2010, again with Markov out.

# 3: Gorges was down further on the depth chart in 2008 - 2009.

# 4: Gorges was barely on the radar in 2007 - 2008.

He's evolved into a nice player but calling him the best player is farfetched IMHO. I consider Markov the Habs' best player. Cole, Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Desharnais deserve a mention. So that means Gorges (you say the team's best) and Markov (I say the team's best) were out in 2010 - 2011 but yet made the playoffs. This year the team on paper was actually improved offensively (Pacioretty returned and Cole acquired) and many would say the D was the same even without Markov. Many in the fanbase didn't care that Wiz and Hamr left.

Injuries are no longer an excuse for the Habs because they've been "injured" the last four years. As long as Markov is on the roster they fail to understand the importance of another top 4, two way d-man to compensate for Markov's missed time. That's why an Orlov looks good to me - because I honestly think he'll get there sooner rather than later.

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08-22-2012, 04:48 PM
  #135
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Oh please, don't be ridiculous. Alzner would not come close to getting you either of those guys.
Don't worry, we wouldn't trade Alzner for either of them. Just making a point of what "closer" value would be.

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08-22-2012, 04:58 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
They both played 82 games last year. Alzner had one more point than Gorges, was +2 LESS than Gorges (in +/- category), Alzner had 57 LESS hits, Alzner had 111 LESS blocked shots, and Alzner had a WORSE giveaway to takeaway ratio than Gorges by 10! I would like someone to explain to me why Alzner is suddenly worth Gorges ++!! I could mention Gorges' intangibles, his Captaincy qualities, his constant push to go forward, his ability to play through pain, his willingness to stand up for team mates, but that might be a bit of overkill. Alzner IS 5 years younger, 2 inches taller, 13 pounds heavier, and has a better contract for now. What the heck else has Alzner done to even be worth Gorges, screw adding anything significant?!?!
Your argument is +/- and "real time stats" from NHL.com? LOL.

+/- is pretty meaningless when taken out of context (and is still mediocre in context). The "real time stat" tracking is completely subjective and arbitrary and there's no league wide standardization. What one scorekeeper calls a hit, another might not. There are pretty wild swings in stat keeping in different arenas and blatant cases of home bias among some scorekeepers. Take any of those stats, especially for individual seasons, not with a grain of salt but with a massive dose of it.

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08-22-2012, 05:02 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Is there something wrong with you? That 33 year old winger would have been 2nd on your team in goals and points right behind Ovechkin. As far as getting Alzner and a 1st for Gorges and Cole, I would laugh that off in an instant.
Last year's caps team was probably the 2nd worst offensive team in the NHL after the Kings, definitely bottom 5. Cole doesn't sniff 30 goals on that. Last year was the first time since the post lockout year when everyone's numbers were through the roof that Cole scored 30+ goals. Career wise he's much more of a 25-25 player with outliers here and there.

Quote:
They both played 82 games last year. Alzner had one more point than Gorges, was +2 LESS than Gorges (in +/- category), Alzner had 57 LESS hits, Alzner had 111 LESS blocked shots, and Alzner had a WORSE giveaway to takeaway ratio than Gorges by 10! I would like someone to explain to me why Alzner is suddenly worth Gorges ++!! I could mention Gorges' intangibles, his Captaincy qualities, his constant push to go forward, his ability to play through pain, his willingness to stand up for team mates, but that might be a bit of overkill. Alzner IS 5 years younger, 2 inches taller, 13 pounds heavier, and has a better contract for now. What the heck else has Alzner done to even be worth Gorges, screw adding anything significant?!?! We have to give a veteran defensive defenceman in his prime, who is better in all aspects of the game except for points, weight, height, and age, and WE have to add?!?!? To get a younger version of what we have in the hopes that he will develop into what we already have???
If that's how you're gonna judge defensemen then I guess Lidstrom and Suter are crap, and the hitting/shot blocking machine Luke Schenn is one of the best D in the league. Alzner's game isn't predicated upon hitting or blocking shots, even though he never shies away from doing either when the situation calls from it. You don't watch Alzner play and think that he bailed out of making a hit or blocking a shot somewhere, since his play limits a lot of the chances that lead to those situations, and when the situations do arise he doesn't bail on them. Gorges is a warrior willing to sacrifice his body, but he's much more likely to get walked than Alzner (and then have to cover for it by blocking shots/playing zone defense). Alzner's game is predicated upon not making mistakes. He's pure defensive effectiveness. Closest player I can think of out there is Marc Staal. He's pretty much the ideal partner for all the Doughtys/Karlssons/Pietrangelos/Subbans/EJs/Myers of the league that their teams are desperate for.


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08-22-2012, 05:08 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Josh Gorges is better than Craig Rivet ever was.

And better? Okay.
At the time of the trade Gorges was more or less throw in.

Orlov is better right now than Gorges was at the time. He has dimensions to his game Gorges does not that he can get better at. Johansson has a good chance of becoming about as good as Pacioretty, who was a question mark prior to last year, though I'd probably take Pacioretty since PFs are rare. Still, he has very realistic chance at being a 25g 70p center who is good defensively and blazingly fast.

If the Canadiens do the original trade proposed there's a very good chance they make out as much 3-4 years from now as they had 3-4 years after the Rivet trade.

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08-22-2012, 05:12 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
At the time of the trade Gorges was more or less throw in.

Orlov is better right now than Gorges was at the time. He has dimensions to his game Gorges does not that he can get better at. Johansson has a good chance of becoming about as good as Pacioretty, who was a question mark prior to last year, though I'd probably take Pacioretty since PFs are rare. Still, he has very realistic chance at being a 25g 70p center who is good defensively and blazingly fast.

If the Canadiens do the original trade proposed there's a very good chance they make out as much 3-4 years from now as they had 3-4 years after the Rivet trade.
Value-wise yes. Ofcourse. But neither of those players help our team. The last thing we need is a physically weak centreman and an offensive defenseman (who is a favourite of mine).

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08-22-2012, 06:56 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
I can't believe Habs fans actually think Alzner is worse than Gorges.

I guess they pay so little attention to players outside of their own team, they didn't even bother to watch Alzner in the playoffs.
As of today, yes, Gorges is better.

I'd bet 95% of NHL GMs would take Gorges on their team for a playoff run over Alzner, AT THIS POINT. Alzner certainly has the potential to one day pass Gorges. I'd say he's likely to do so and for that he does hold more value.

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08-22-2012, 07:00 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
As of today, yes, Gorges is better.

I'd bet 95% of NHL GMs would take Gorges on their team for a playoff run over Alzner, AT THIS POINT. Alzner certainly has the potential to one day pass Gorges. I'd say he's likely to do so and for that he does hold more value.
After Alzner's playoff run this spring I doubt that would be the case.

GMs also overvalue experience astronomically, but Alzner doesn't really have any drawbacks you'd associate with being inexperienced.

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08-22-2012, 08:21 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
As of today, yes, Gorges is better.

I'd bet 95% of NHL GMs would take Gorges on their team for a playoff run over Alzner, AT THIS POINT. Alzner certainly has the potential to one day pass Gorges. I'd say he's likely to do so and for that he does hold more value.
I'd bet otherwise. Alzner is already better, and the Capitals certainly wouldn't have gotten past the Bruins with Gorges in his spot.

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08-22-2012, 08:28 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
As of today, yes, Gorges is better.

I'd bet 95% of NHL GMs would take Gorges on their team for a playoff run over Alzner, AT THIS POINT. Alzner certainly has the potential to one day pass Gorges. I'd say he's likely to do so and for that he does hold more value.
Hmmm... no Alzner is on par with Gorges right now. And a lot younger.

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08-22-2012, 09:14 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
As of today, yes, Gorges is better.

I'd bet 95% of NHL GMs would take Gorges on their team for a playoff run over Alzner, AT THIS POINT. Alzner certainly has the potential to one day pass Gorges. I'd say he's likely to do so and for that he does hold more value.
Take a look here at the point totals for Seguin, Bergeron, Lucic, and Krejci, then reconsider your previous post.

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08-22-2012, 09:54 PM
  #145
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a) That wasn't just Alzner, it was the entire team. Alzner was a key cog, no doubt.

b) Its not like Gorges hasn't also demonstrated skill in shutting down elite players in the playoffs. He helped Montreal hold 1 goal and 4 assists and Malkin to 1 goal and 2 assists in 2010. Alzner just isn't as proven as Gorges is. He can and probably will surpass him, but there isn't any argument that can be made that doesn't rely heavily on personal opinion to say that Alzner is better Gorges right now.

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08-22-2012, 10:23 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
a) That wasn't just Alzner, it was the entire team. Alzner was a key cog, no doubt.

b) Its not like Gorges hasn't also demonstrated skill in shutting down elite players in the playoffs. He helped Montreal hold 1 goal and 4 assists and Malkin to 1 goal and 2 assists in 2010. Alzner just isn't as proven as Gorges is. He can and probably will surpass him, but there isn't any argument that can be made that doesn't rely heavily on personal opinion to say that Alzner is better Gorges right now.
a) It was mostly Alzner.

b) Haha, don't try to fool us. That was all Gill, Hamrlik, and Halak. You guys went through us first.

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08-22-2012, 10:39 PM
  #147
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What does your link show exactly? That Karl Alzner played against the Bruins top line, and when they changed in favour of the second line, Karl Alzner stayed out there and played against that line too (this is considering we were instructed to examine the stats of 4 forwards, from two lines)? Is Karl Alzner's time too important for Rich Peverley? [these were all rhetorical - don't dignify me with a response, please]

Might you reconsider the fact that a much better Bruins team the previous year (against a much worse Canadiens team, with a Gill-Subban, Hamrlik-Wiz top-4) scored 17 goals in 7 first round games (they only managed 11 vs. the Caps this season). Krejci - the eventual playoff scoring leader - tallied 1 goal and 0 assists. Milan Lucic tallied 0 goals and 2 assists. Tyler Seguin must have begged out of the lineup for fear of embarrassing himself because he didn't appear for the Bruins until the Lightning series. Bergeron (2nd line) took Roman Hamrlik (2nd pair and terribad that series) to the woodshed to the tune of 2 goals and 5 assists.

So, yeah, this Karl Alzner did okay I guess, but the only thing I got from your link is that he's no Hal Gill.

Clearly Josh Gorges has nothing at all to do with this post, and he is the subject of this thread, and I am having second thoughts about posting this snark, but it took me a long time to figure out how to isolate a single round of stats from nhl.com, so I'm going to go ahead and click submit. Forgive me.

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08-22-2012, 11:15 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
a) That wasn't just Alzner, it was the entire team. Alzner was a key cog, no doubt.

b) Its not like Gorges hasn't also demonstrated skill in shutting down elite players in the playoffs. He helped Montreal hold 1 goal and 4 assists and Malkin to 1 goal and 2 assists in 2010. Alzner just isn't as proven as Gorges is. He can and probably will surpass him, but there isn't any argument that can be made that doesn't rely heavily on personal opinion to say that Alzner is better Gorges right now.
The difference is that Alzner was (and is) our only true shutdown guy. Gorges that year had a cadre of savvy veterans to help him out in Gill, Hamrlik, and Spacek, while Alzner had Carlson coming off a bad sophomore slump, a visibly older Hamrlik, and Green recovering from surgery and well below 100%. And he still shut down their top scorers not only at evens, but on the PP as well, where Boston was 1 for 12 for the series. I think it's clear that the choice between Alzner and Gorges for a playoff series right now would not be a unanimous one, as that poster suggested.

To Deaner: Boston switched up their lines to try to spark their offense, so there was no consistent first line. Alzner also faced all four of them on the PK.

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08-23-2012, 02:11 AM
  #149
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this thread: battle of the homers!

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