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Sam Gagner vs James van Riemsdyk

View Poll Results: Sam Gagner vs James van Riemsdyk
Sam Gagner 48 27.12%
James van Riemsdyk 118 66.67%
Both suck too much 11 6.21%
Voters: 177. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-21-2012, 03:55 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Injuries are a considerable factor in determining who I'd rather take. Despite Gagner being soft, slow and small, he still goes to the net and tries to win puck battles. JVR does nothing of that ilk, all the talent, but no success. Gagner's had a better career thus far, his worst season is better than JVR's best season. I was also intrigued by JVR's speed and size at first, but it does nothing if he doesn't use those to his advantage. Doesn't hit, fight, or blow by defenders. You'd expect Gagner to be the one battling injuries, not JVR when considering their physical attributes. And before I'm called a Leaf hater, I had the same opinions on JVR for 2 yrs now.

Gagner's not as physically gifted, but he's a much better player offensively and has offensive instincts which I can see him lasting in the league for a long time. Stephen Weiss/Derek Roy type player.
lolwut? He hits nearly the same amount as guys like Bobby Ryan etc.

Check out his stats, he had over 100 hits in 75 games last year and this year he had nearly a PPG hit in his short season before getting injured.

To say he doesn't hit is ridiculous, especially when your comparing him to Gagner who barely hits at all.

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08-21-2012, 04:03 PM
  #52
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JVR probably has higher upside so I expect him to win this poll, but I'd rather have Gagner. His production is that of an average playoff 2C, and recently he's shown that he can display grit and toughness despite his small stature.

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08-21-2012, 04:16 PM
  #53
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JVR rather easily

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08-21-2012, 05:25 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Lupes View Post
lolwut? He hits nearly the same amount as guys like Bobby Ryan etc.

Check out his stats, he had over 100 hits in 75 games last year and this year he had nearly a PPG hit in his short season before getting injured.

To say he doesn't hit is ridiculous, especially when your comparing him to Gagner who barely hits at all.
You don't have to hit players to be physical. Brian Boyle is a prime example of this. He got 236 hits last season, but I wouldn't say he's a physical phenom. Physicality for me at least also includes working on the forecheck, going to the net and battling with defenders behind the net. Haven't seen any consistent physical play from JVR, despite his talents.

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08-21-2012, 06:21 PM
  #55
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You don't have to hit players to be physical. Brian Boyle is a prime example of this. He got 236 hits last season, but I wouldn't say he's a physical phenom. Physicality for me at least also includes working on the forecheck, going to the net and battling with defenders behind the net. Haven't seen any consistent physical play from JVR, despite his talents.
Well, then why did u say he doesn't hit? see the bolded.

And he definitely goes to the net, check back on page 2(I posted a video on his last season). Most of the times he stays in front of the net and does the dirty work. Driving to the net, getting in front of the net and scoring garbage is what he has shown so far.

He is certainly the better offensive player as a whole as well. The only thing Gagner has on him is his much better hockey sense or else JVR is the clear and obvious choice.


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08-21-2012, 06:23 PM
  #56
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Well, then why did u say he doesn't hit? see the bolded.

And he definitely goes to the net, check back on page 2. Most of the times he stays in front of the net and does the dirty work. Driving to the net, getting in front of the net and scoring garbage is what he has shown so far.
Because he doesn't do it consistently. He is wildly inconsistent and disappears for long stretches.

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08-21-2012, 06:25 PM
  #57
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I don't think either one has come close to reaching his potential yet.

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08-21-2012, 06:30 PM
  #58
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Hmmm... JVR's highest point total in the NHL is 40, and Gagner's lowest is 41.

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08-21-2012, 06:33 PM
  #59
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Because he doesn't do it consistently. He is wildly inconsistent and disappears for long stretches.
Then be more clear and precise in your post next-time. I would definitely call him decent in the physical department, though. whether or not he is inconsistent is another problem.

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08-21-2012, 07:45 PM
  #60
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Then be more clear and precise in your post next-time. I would definitely call him decent in the physical department, though. whether or not he is inconsistent is another problem.
Obviously saying he doesn't hit is hyperbole. But he isn't a great physical player. Which isn't the end of the world. Max Paccioretty is a guy who doesn't run guys over, but he uses his size to his advantage. If JVR figures that out, he'll be a dominant player.

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08-21-2012, 07:49 PM
  #61
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JVR easily.AINEC

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08-21-2012, 09:17 PM
  #62
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JVR, I think he will have a great year in Toronto
this

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08-21-2012, 09:23 PM
  #63
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Hmmm... JVR's highest point total in the NHL is 40, and Gagner's lowest is 41.
Must be a result of hfboards never-ending Leafs love.

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08-21-2012, 09:52 PM
  #64
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Anyone who dissagrees with oiler fans , no matter how sane their argument is automatically labeled a troll,

They have the best players in the nhl, as seen by their fanbases vehement defense of any oiler, in there minds they have finished first overall for three straight years not 30th ,

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08-22-2012, 12:38 AM
  #65
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Anyone who dissagrees with oiler fans , no matter how sane their argument is automatically labeled a troll,

They have the best players in the nhl, as seen by their fanbases vehement defense of any oiler, in there minds they have finished first overall for three straight years not 30th ,
No they're saying you're a troll since you have a big history of trolling everything Oiler related on these boards. It's getting very tiring and I'm not sure why a Senators fan in the first place has the irrational obsession with the Oilers and their fanbase.

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08-22-2012, 05:38 AM
  #66
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If JVR can stay healthy, he wins this by far

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08-22-2012, 10:56 AM
  #67
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No they're saying you're a troll since you have a big history of trolling everything Oiler related on these boards. It's getting very tiring and I'm not sure why a Senators fan in the first place has the irrational obsession with the Oilers and their fanbase.
Excellent post. And, Immanuel, before you call him a troll as well, he's a Rangers fan.

Finishing near the bottom of the league 3 years in a row doesn't automatically mean that all your players are poor quality. Gagner is actually an average 2C on a playoff team. He has better production than most, more grit that most (at least recently), but does lack in size/faceoffs/defense relative to playoff 2Cs. The reason he's brought up in trades is not because of his ability as a player - it's because he just isn't a great fit (apparently) for the Oilers with all the other undersized offensive talent that we have in the top6.

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08-22-2012, 11:09 AM
  #68
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Haven't seen enough of Gagner but I've seen plenty of JVR. My instincts tell me to take JVR in this poll, but I'd have to say neither will live up close to their hype.

JVR is a perimeter player and a misfitting piece. He never had any chemistry with any Flyer, which was puzzling because there were plenty of great playmakers and offensive guys in Philly over the last three seasons. There's just something missing in his hockey DNA, I credit it to coming from a non-traditional hockey market and always playing lesser competition (him not going to the OHL still puzzles me).

Flashes of brilliance, yes. There were times he looked like a legit power forward. But he's way too soft/not physical to instill confidence that could ever be a regular occurrence.

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08-22-2012, 12:06 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Fearless Leaf View Post
He is certainly the better offensive player as a whole as well. The only thing Gagner has on him is his much better hockey sense or else JVR is the clear and obvious choice.
Yes. Clearly JVR is the better offensive player.

Gagner - 220p, 366GP, 0.60PPG (on the Oilers)
JVR - 99p, 196GP, 0.51PPG (on the Flyers)

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08-22-2012, 12:35 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Yes. Clearly JVR is the better offensive player.

Gagner - 220p, 366GP, 0.60PPG (on the Oilers)
JVR - 99p, 196GP, 0.51PPG (on the Flyers)
Yes clearly playing on a team with a lot of depth you don't get the minutes you need to be effective. Your data actually proves why JvR is a better player.

He played behind studs and still managed .50PPG. Gagner over the years with the Oilers wasn't on a stacked team, got enough time to break out of 40-50 points and hasn't done that.

JvR has the potential to be a 65-70 point guy on the Leafs as a top 6 forward.

On the Flyers....over the years they had:

Giroux
Briere
Richards
Carter
Gagne
Hartnell

Now you tell me how JvR was supposed to show what he can do when each of those forwards are clearly better in what they do and deserve top 6 minutes?

With Gagner, you already know, he's a 45-50 point player. He may have a few better years but I don't think he's going to get better. If not for the game of his life in that 8 point game..he wouldn't even break 40 points this year.

With JvR, you know that he hasn't produced offensively on a STACKED Flyers team...can't blame him for that. I don't see how JvR isn't the guy you pick.

Gagner is great but if he was as great as you guys think he is, he would be signed to a long term deal and not be given a 1 year deal.


Last edited by Pi: 08-22-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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08-22-2012, 12:38 PM
  #71
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Gagner pretty easily. He's the better player, regardless of his height or weight.

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08-22-2012, 01:32 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Yes clearly playing on a team with a lot of depth you don't get the minutes you need to be effective. Your data actually proves why JvR is a better player.

He played behind studs and still managed .50PPG. Gagner over the years with the Oilers wasn't on a stacked team, got enough time to break out of 40-50 points and hasn't done that.

JvR has the potential to be a 65-70 point guy on the Leafs as a top 6 forward.

On the Flyers....over the years they had:

Giroux
Briere
Richards
Carter
Gagne
Hartnell

Now you tell me how JvR was supposed to show what he can do when each of those forwards are clearly better in what they do and deserve top 6 minutes?

With Gagner, you already know, he's a 45-50 point player. He may have a few better years but I don't think he's going to get better. If not for the game of his life in that 8 point game..he wouldn't even break 40 points this year.

With JvR, you know that he hasn't produced offensively on a STACKED Flyers team...can't blame him for that. I don't see how JvR isn't the guy you pick.

Gagner is great but if he was as great as you guys think he is, he would be signed to a long term deal and not be given a 1 year deal.
Only on HF do less points and a lower ppg = a better offensive player.

I hope JVR works out well for you. But just assuming that a guy whose career high is 40p is going to explode just because he's now on your team seems like a bit of a stretch doesn't it?

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08-22-2012, 01:34 PM
  #73
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Don't like either player, but I'd take the bigger, more aggressive JVR over Gagner.

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08-22-2012, 01:45 PM
  #74
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Not a huge fan of either, but you have to go with JVR. If he's not scoring, he'll still be a valuable player by crashing the net and playing a physical type of game. When Gagner isn't scoring he's not doing much.

I find Gagner a little overrated after his eight point game but that's just me. It was a great game, although poor goaltending.

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08-22-2012, 01:46 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Only on HF do less points and a lower ppg = a better offensive player.

I hope JVR works out well for you. But just assuming that a guy whose career high is 40p is going to explode just because he's now on your team seems like a bit of a stretch doesn't it?
How is it a stretch? It's called progression.

Valtteri Filppula "exploded" putting up 66 points after many years of producing in the 30-40 range.

Jordan Staal "exploded" with 50 points in 62 games after a few years of 40ish point seasons.

Claude Giroux on a more extreme scale did the same.

Van Riemsdyk has only had two complete seasons in the NHL as a twenty year old and a twenty one year old. You would have probably seen him keep up his (roughly) 20-20-40 average this season had he played the full year.

You could've and probably said the same things I'm saying right now after Gagner's second season (Some still say it today) on how he can "explode" next season, so don't give me this crap about a player who's career high is 40p won't all of a sudden progress and start producing more. Van Riemsdyk will get more ice time in Toronto than he ever did in Philadelphia. He averaged 12, 13, & 15 minutes a game in his three years in Philly. Not too mention he's only 23 years old and is still developing.

Unlike Gagner, who is yes also 23 years old, maybe still developing, but has had many more chances to prove himself. He'll be going into his sixth year in the NHL and if it wasn't for that ridiculous 8 point night, this past season would've marked his lowest amount of points in his career.

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