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Sam Gagner vs James van Riemsdyk

View Poll Results: Sam Gagner vs James van Riemsdyk
Sam Gagner 48 27.12%
James van Riemsdyk 118 66.67%
Both suck too much 11 6.21%
Voters: 177. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-22-2012, 02:26 PM
  #76
Oilking83
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Originally Posted by RaskY View Post
How is it a stretch? It's called progression.

Valtteri Filppula "exploded" putting up 66 points after many years of producing in the 30-40 range.

Jordan Staal "exploded" with 50 points in 62 games after a few years of 40ish point seasons.

Claude Giroux on a more extreme scale did the same.

Van Riemsdyk has only had two complete seasons in the NHL as a twenty year old and a twenty one year old. You would have probably seen him keep up his (roughly) 20-20-40 average this season had he played the full year.

You could've and probably said the same things I'm saying right now after Gagner's second season (Some still say it today) on how he can "explode" next season, so don't give me this crap about a player who's career high is 40p won't all of a sudden progress and start producing more. Van Riemsdyk will get more ice time in Toronto than he ever did in Philadelphia. He averaged 12, 13, & 15 minutes a game in his three years in Philly. Not too mention he's only 23 years old and is still developing.

Unlike Gagner, who is yes also 23 years old, maybe still developing, but has had many more chances to prove himself. He'll be going into his sixth year in the NHL and if it wasn't for that ridiculous 8 point night, this past season would've marked his lowest amount of points in his career.
Last I checked scoring 8 points in a game was an impressive feat done by few in the history of the nhl only on hf is it considered something to look down on. Gagner's achievements are quickly dismissed yet JVR gets credit for some perceived potential he's yet to achieve 5 years after being drafted.

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08-22-2012, 02:29 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by BrimFullofAsham45 View Post
Haven't seen enough of Gagner but I've seen plenty of JVR. My instincts tell me to take JVR in this poll, but I'd have to say neither will live up close to their hype.

JVR is a perimeter player and a misfitting piece.
He never had any chemistry with any Flyer, which was puzzling because there were plenty of great playmakers and offensive guys in Philly over the last three seasons. There's just something missing in his hockey DNA, I credit it to coming from a non-traditional hockey market and always playing lesser competition (him not going to the OHL still puzzles me).

Flashes of brilliance, yes. There were times he looked like a legit power forward. But he's way too soft/not physical to instill confidence that could ever be a regular occurrence.
This perfectly describes JVR. I've never been impressed with him against the Rangers.

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08-22-2012, 02:36 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Moilers View Post
Last I checked scoring 8 points in a game was an impressive feat done by few in the history of the nhl only on hf is it considered something to look down on. Gagner's achievements are quickly dismissed yet JVR gets credit for some perceived potential he's yet to achieve 5 years after being drafted.
You just may be my hero.

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08-22-2012, 02:41 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Moilers View Post
Last I checked scoring 8 points in a game was an impressive feat done by few in the history of the nhl only on hf is it considered something to look down on. Gagner's achievements are quickly dismissed yet JVR gets credit for some perceived potential he's yet to achieve 5 years after being drafted.
It is a great accomplishment. But get real here. That eight point game should not weigh Gagner's value. If you read earlier, you would see that I did give credit for Gagner's eight point game. But just because of that game can you honestly deny that Gagner had a pretty mediocre season.

Gagner was also drafted 5 years ago, and unlike Van Riemsdyk, has also played 5 seasons in the NHL, and has shown no progression. Let's see where Van Riemsdyk is in three years when he's entering his sixth season in the NHL, see if he can barely score 20 goals or reach the 40 point plateau (As Gagner was this season until that eight point game)

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Old
08-22-2012, 03:21 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moilers View Post
Last I checked scoring 8 points in a game was an impressive feat done by few in the history of the nhl only on hf is it considered something to look down on. Gagner's achievements are quickly dismissed yet JVR gets credit for some perceived potential he's yet to achieve 5 years after being drafted.
That must mean the player with the most multi point games has the most potential.

Somebody get the scoresheets out.

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Old
08-22-2012, 07:39 PM
  #81
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Gagner has had the better career so far, but JVR will be more valuable in the future because of his goal scoring ability.

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Old
08-22-2012, 09:23 PM
  #82
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rasky's argument is actually true. While Gagner was given the chance to shine and play regular minutes...Jvr just hasnt. In the 2010-2011 there TOi differnce by over 3 minutes per game.

The previous season JVR saw a whopping 12ish minutes of ice time while gagner saw over 16 minutes pergame

So pretty much both seasons he had over 3 minues of ice time while playing in top roles where JVR was just thrown in to eat a few minutes here and there.

And thats why folks sometimes stats can win an argument.

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08-22-2012, 10:27 PM
  #83
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Rather have JVR

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Old
08-23-2012, 08:29 AM
  #84
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People pretending Gagner's 8 point night never happened are so mad they're hilarious. Sure, as an entity the 8 point night doesn't make or break his value but to suggest that it shouldn't count to his year totals is foolish. Do we dog players for having hat tricks? Or 5 point nights? I guess Malkin only scored 89 points because his four 5 point nights don't count.

But let's stop with the "I feel" BS. This isn't a music class, we have hard facts to examine.

Even strength Points per game

07-08 season
Gagner: 0.47
JVR: 0.00

08-09 season
Gagner: 0.41
JVR: 0.00

09-10 season
Gagner: 0.35, Oilers finish 30th
JVR: 0.36, Flyers finish 15th

10-11 season
Gagner: 0.49, Oilers finish 30th
JVR: 0.48, Flyers finish 3rd

11-12 season
Gagner: 0.47, Oilers finish 29th
JVR: 0.44, Flyers finish 6th

The only season JVR out produced Gagner was 09-10, the worst year the Oilers have ever had. JVR meanwhile plays on a much better team yet produces less. Sure, icetime is a factor. Here are their even strength points per 60 this year.

Gagner: 1.96
JVR: 1.90

And the year before:
Gagner: 1.90
JVR: 1.88

JVR could still become better, but Gagner is currently the better player.

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08-23-2012, 10:27 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hynh View Post
People pretending Gagner's 8 point night never happened are so mad they're hilarious. Sure, as an entity the 8 point night doesn't make or break his value but to suggest that it shouldn't count to his year totals is foolish. Do we dog players for having hat tricks? Or 5 point nights? I guess Malkin only scored 89 points because his four 5 point nights don't count.

But let's stop with the "I feel" BS. This isn't a music class, we have hard facts to examine.

Even strength Points per game

07-08 season
Gagner: 0.47
JVR: 0.00

08-09 season
Gagner: 0.41
JVR: 0.00

09-10 season
Gagner: 0.35, Oilers finish 30th
JVR: 0.36, Flyers finish 15th

10-11 season
Gagner: 0.49, Oilers finish 30th
JVR: 0.48, Flyers finish 3rd

11-12 season
Gagner: 0.47, Oilers finish 29th
JVR: 0.44, Flyers finish 6th

The only season JVR out produced Gagner was 09-10, the worst year the Oilers have ever had. JVR meanwhile plays on a much better team yet produces less. Sure, icetime is a factor. Here are their even strength points per 60 this year.

Gagner: 1.96
JVR: 1.90

And the year before:
Gagner: 1.90
JVR: 1.88

JVR could still become better, but Gagner is currently the better player.
It's debatable IMO who is currently better. The best we can say is that Gagner has been very slightly better offensively so far but JVR had the great playoff as well. I think JVR's size and more physical play makes him a more attractive player for most teams. Gagner so far looks like the classic tweener. Not good enough for a top 6 role and too small to be a bottom 6 player. Of course, that can all change if he takes another step offensively.


Last edited by vanwest: 08-23-2012 at 10:45 AM.
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Old
08-23-2012, 10:36 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by RaskY View Post
It is a great accomplishment. But get real here. That eight point game should not weigh Gagner's value. If you read earlier, you would see that I did give credit for Gagner's eight point game. But just because of that game can you honestly deny that Gagner had a pretty mediocre season.

Gagner was also drafted 5 years ago, and unlike Van Riemsdyk, has also played 5 seasons in the NHL, and has shown no progression. Let's see where Van Riemsdyk is in three years when he's entering his sixth season in the NHL, see if he can barely score 20 goals or reach the 40 point plateau (As Gagner was this season until that eight point game)
Now that's just patently false.
Progression comes in many forms, not just points. Sam was a plus player for the first time last season, continued to improve his FO% and put up his second highest point totals despite being saddled for the first part of the season on a line with Belanger.
Gagner will never stir the drink offensively, but in the five seasons he's played in the NHL, he's made progression as a complete hockey player. He's still not there yet, but to say there's been no signs of improvement is just very dumb.

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08-23-2012, 10:47 AM
  #87
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how am i trolling ? honest question
Your use of punctuation could be considered trolling.

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Old
08-23-2012, 11:09 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
It's debatable IMO who is currently better. The best we can say is that Gagner has been better offensively so far. I think JVR's size and more physical play makes him a more attractive player for most teams. Gagner so far looks like the classic tweener. Not good enough for a top 6 role and too small to be a bottom 6 player. Of course, that can all change if he takes another step offensively.
But Gagner is a 2C. Among players listed as centers he scored the 43rd most points this year. By definition that is an offensive 2C. Consider how poor the Oilers defense was at moving the puck up ice (the only capable ones were Petry, Gilbert and Whitney. A player with 35 games before this season, hurt/traded midseason and hurt/immobile, respectively). That position will be easy to drastically improve in the years ahead (in the sense that going from 1 to 2 is easier than going from 2 to 4).

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08-23-2012, 11:17 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Hynh View Post
But Gagner is a 2C. Among players listed as centers he scored the 43rd most points this year. By definition that is an offensive 2C. Consider how poor the Oilers defense was at moving the puck up ice (the only capable ones were Petry, Gilbert and Whitney. A player with 35 games before this season, hurt/traded midseason and hurt/immobile, respectively). That position will be easy to drastically improve in the years ahead (in the sense that going from 1 to 2 is easier than going from 2 to 4).
I see him as a tweener in that his offensive production puts him in the middle of the pack for 2nd line centers. Given his size though he needs to improve his offensive numbers by quite a bit if he wants to stick on a contending team as he will likely never bring the physical element that many other middle of the pack second line centers bring. In other words, given his size he needs to be better than a middle of the pack second line center to stick on a contending team. Unless he does I think that the Oilers will probably move him as their younger guys progress.


Last edited by vanwest: 08-23-2012 at 11:51 AM.
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08-23-2012, 11:38 AM
  #90
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I take JVR without thinking twice. Gagner is what he is, he's fully developed and i don't see him progressing anymore. JVR is power forward and those tend to progress slower. I really feel in 2 years JVR will be mentioned in the top 5 Power Forwards in the league. I see him as a 35-35 guy.

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Old
08-23-2012, 12:03 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Hynh View Post
People pretending Gagner's 8 point night never happened are so mad they're hilarious. Sure, as an entity the 8 point night doesn't make or break his value but to suggest that it shouldn't count to his year totals is foolish. Do we dog players for having hat tricks? Or 5 point nights? I guess Malkin only scored 89 points because his four 5 point nights don't count.

But let's stop with the "I feel" BS. This isn't a music class, we have hard facts to examine.

Even strength Points per game

07-08 season
Gagner: 0.47
JVR: 0.00

08-09 season
Gagner: 0.41
JVR: 0.00

09-10 season
Gagner: 0.35, Oilers finish 30th
JVR: 0.36, Flyers finish 15th

10-11 season
Gagner: 0.49, Oilers finish 30th
JVR: 0.48, Flyers finish 3rd

11-12 season
Gagner: 0.47, Oilers finish 29th
JVR: 0.44, Flyers finish 6th

The only season JVR out produced Gagner was 09-10, the worst year the Oilers have ever had. JVR meanwhile plays on a much better team yet produces less. Sure, icetime is a factor. Here are their even strength points per 60 this year.

Gagner: 1.96
JVR: 1.90

And the year before:
Gagner: 1.90
JVR: 1.88

JVR could still become better, but Gagner is currently the better player.
Why don't you compare their stats with the stats their linemates have instead of where their respective teams finish in the standings. It's not exactly a secret that the Flyers have twice the team the Oilers have.

Over the last 3 years heres their ice-time totals:
JVR: ~2,752 minutes (~328 of those minutes were on the PP)
Gagner: ~3,602 minutes (~562 of those minutes were on the PP)

Over the last 3 years heres their total production:
JVR: 99PTS
Gagner: 130PTS

Therefore, over the last 3 years Sam Gagner has produced 1.31 as many points as JVR while playing 1.31 times more minutes (1.71 more on the PP). Today, had all things been equal they would likely have scored about the same amount of points. The only difference is size and weight. Any of these 'AINEC' posts are absurd. I'd still take JVR based on preference.

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Old
08-23-2012, 12:18 PM
  #92
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If Gagne, JVR and myself were in a room together with only a gun and two bullets and just one could walk out alive... I'd shoot Gagne twice.

I kid I kid. I don't like either of them; but I'd take JVR for sure.

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08-23-2012, 12:46 PM
  #93
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If Gagne, JVR and myself were in a room together with only a gun and two bullets and just one could walk out alive... I'd shoot Gagne twice.

I kid I kid. I don't like either of them; but I'd take JVR for sure.
Who said anything about Simon Gagne?

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08-23-2012, 12:54 PM
  #94
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Who said anything about Simon Gagne?
Arrgh. I hate autocorrect.

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08-23-2012, 01:02 PM
  #95
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if the questions asking about a hockey fight, Sam Gagner all day son

some power forward eh

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08-23-2012, 01:47 PM
  #96
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JVR easily for me. Gagner has scored at a slightly higher pace so far, but he's been spoon fed major offensive responsibility on a bad Oilers team. He's tiny, poor defensively, bad on draws, he just has way too many drawbacks to his game. He's a Kyle Wellwood type of player, a guy who can put up a decent number of points on a bad team, but not someone who is going to contribute much on a good team.

JVR is no stud either, but he's got a lot of potential in terms of his size, speed and skill level. He put up 35 points in his rookie season (in just 12:58 mins/game, with very little PP time), 40 points his second season (14:32 mpg, little PP time), and was on pace for 46 points per 82 games last year (15:10 mpg, little PP time). He has been producing points only slightly slower than Gagner despite receiving less minutes, less PP time and less offensive responsibility because he's on a much deeper/better team. I expect the two to produce at similar levels next season, but JVR brings size and speed, while Gagner brings pretty much nothing but points. Long term I think JVR is at a minimum a solid 2nd liner on a good team, with the potential to be a solid 1st liner on a good team, while Gagner will IMO always be an offensive specialist, a Kyle Wellwood type with a questionable role on a good team.

Long term, let's say JVR becomes a 25 goal/50 point player (best season so far is 21 goals/40 points), while Gagner becomes a 20 goal/60 point player (best season so far is either 13 goals/49 points or 18 goals/47 points). Gagner would still be small, soft, bad defensively, poor on faceoffs, and generally not good for much except scoring, while JVR would bring size, speed, decent physicality, and a better 2-way game. I would easily take JVR, even if Gagner was outscoring him by 10 points per season.


Last edited by ponder: 08-23-2012 at 01:57 PM.
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08-23-2012, 02:51 PM
  #97
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JVR easily for me. Gagner has scored at a slightly higher pace so far, but he's been spoon fed major offensive responsibility on a bad Oilers team.
Except for when he hasn't been.

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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
He's tiny, poor defensively, bad on draws, he just has way too many drawbacks to his game. He's a Kyle Wellwood type of player, a guy who can put up a decent number of points on a bad team, but not someone who is going to contribute much on a good team.
Plus-5 on a near-last place Oilers team. I'd suggest defensive improvement.

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08-23-2012, 03:01 PM
  #98
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JVR easily for me. Gagner has scored at a slightly higher pace so far, but he's been spoon fed major offensive responsibility on a bad Oilers team. He's tiny, poor defensively, bad on draws, he just has way too many drawbacks to his game. He's a Kyle Wellwood type of player, a guy who can put up a decent number of points on a bad team, but not someone who is going to contribute much on a good team.

JVR is no stud either, but he's got a lot of potential in terms of his size, speed and skill level. He put up 35 points in his rookie season (in just 12:58 mins/game, with very little PP time), 40 points his second season (14:32 mpg, little PP time), and was on pace for 46 points per 82 games last year (15:10 mpg, little PP time). He has been producing points only slightly slower than Gagner despite receiving less minutes, less PP time and less offensive responsibility because he's on a much deeper/better team. I expect the two to produce at similar levels next season, but JVR brings size and speed, while Gagner brings pretty much nothing but points. Long term I think JVR is at a minimum a solid 2nd liner on a good team, with the potential to be a solid 1st liner on a good team, while Gagner will IMO always be an offensive specialist, a Kyle Wellwood type with a questionable role on a good team.

Long term, let's say JVR becomes a 25 goal/50 point player (best season so far is 21 goals/40 points), while Gagner becomes a 20 goal/60 point player (best season so far is either 13 goals/49 points or 18 goals/47 points). Gagner would still be small, soft, bad defensively, poor on faceoffs, and generally not good for much except scoring, while JVR would bring size, speed, decent physicality, and a better 2-way game. I would easily take JVR, even if Gagner was outscoring him by 10 points per season.
My first thought was Kyle Wellwood as well given Gagner's stature. But, on reflection, I think it's an unfair comparison (although I suspect you meant the comparison more for his size and offensive ability). Gagner is a dedicated hockey player who clearly works hard at improving and has tried to improve his physical and defensive game. He's become more feisty and initiates some physical play. I think that he will continue to improve but I just see him as not having such a high ceiling given his size and skating speed. He also really needs to work on his consistency as he can disappear offensively for long stretches.

I agree with your conclusion that JVR would be the preferred player even if Gagner had 10 points more.


Last edited by vanwest: 08-23-2012 at 03:07 PM.
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