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Around the League 2012-12 I: Gary and Donald sitting in a tree

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Old
10-26-2012, 03:11 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I think that kind of shows how we view things. To me that article was all about Miller explaining that they are the only ones making concessions after record revenue, and future expansion fees coming that the players won't get a taste of. I don't see much calling out about Fehr, except the ego comment which I saw as more of a general comment that everyone is already thinking.

They gave the moon in the last negotiation. The league had 7 years of record revenue. They got a 10 year $2 billion deal from NBC. It's becoming more clear every day that the league will bing in two new expansion franchises, and probably relocate at least one team, all of which bring in about $100M each that the players don't get a penny of.

And the owners are asking the players to make all the concessions in the deal, that they recently pulled from the table, so now they are posturing like they are going to be asking for more even more. The only thing offered to the players in return for making all the concessions is that they will get a neutral 3rd party arbitrator to handle appeals on discipline, which should have been in place already to be honest.

Feel however you like about what percent you think is fair for the players to take, that is not the way to negotiate. You don't say, I know we've made the most money ever these last seven years, and I know we're not gonna share any of the $300 or so million in relocation fees with you, but this deal just isn't fair to us, you need to give us everything, and we're not gonna offer you any improvements in return. They're a month into the loockout, and the league still hasn't offered anything in return for the players making all the concessions.

How is that a negotiation? None of you guys would make a stand on the principle of not being treated like a complete b*tch? For the second time in a row?
And Fehr putting forth three proposals that don't have linkage to the cap, that are essentially out of the ballpark, is the way to go?

The players have seen their average salary rise greatly over the course of the previous CBA, one in which they didn't lose much of anything. That's being treated like a *****?

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10-26-2012, 04:04 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I think that kind of shows how we view things. To me that article was all about Miller explaining that they are the only ones making concessions after record revenue, and future expansion fees coming that the players won't get a taste of. I don't see much calling out about Fehr, except the ego comment which I saw as more of a general comment that everyone is already thinking.

They gave the moon in the last negotiation. The league had 7 years of record revenue. They got a 10 year $2 billion deal from NBC. It's becoming more clear every day that the league will bing in two new expansion franchises, and probably relocate at least one team, all of which bring in about $100M each that the players don't get a penny of.

And the owners are asking the players to make all the concessions in the deal, that they recently pulled from the table, so now they are posturing like they are going to be asking for more even more. The only thing offered to the players in return for making all the concessions is that they will get a neutral 3rd party arbitrator to handle appeals on discipline, which should have been in place already to be honest.

Feel however you like about what percent you think is fair for the players to take, that is not the way to negotiate. You don't say, I know we've made the most money ever these last seven years, and I know we're not gonna share any of the $300 or so million in relocation fees with you, but this deal just isn't fair to us, you need to give us everything, and we're not gonna offer you any improvements in return. They're a month into the loockout, and the league still hasn't offered anything in return for the players making all the concessions.

How is that a negotiation? None of you guys would make a stand on the principle of not being treated like a complete b*tch? For the second time in a row?
And what, exactly, are all these concessions that "screwed" them? They got earlier UFA status, higher minimum salary, ended up with 57% of HRR by the end, all while the average salary rose every year of the CBA. That's a pretty good deal from my POV.

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10-26-2012, 11:50 PM
  #278
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And Fehr putting forth three proposals that don't have linkage to the cap, that are essentially out of the ballpark, is the way to go?

The players have seen their average salary rise greatly over the course of the previous CBA, one in which they didn't lose much of anything. That's being treated like a *****?
All I'm saying is if the NHL wants the PA to accept the major aspects of their deal which is the 7% drop in revenue, and the contracts limited to five years, they have to offer something in return that benefits them. They can't expect the PA to concede on everything. That's ridiculous.

And this isn't even factoring in the obvious plan of the NHL expanding to Toronto and Quebec, and moving a struggling team to Seattle or somewhere else. That's one new team in the biggest market out there, and two in medium strength markets to help with revenue sharing, and they each are gonna bring in $100M+ in relocation fees that the players won't get any of.

The owners are gonna make out like crazy here. All Bettman has to do is stay in the room longer than 10 minutes to instantly reject three offers, and maybe he can get the PA to cave a little on honoring the contracts, for an extra percentage point or two, or vice versa. Or keep the UFA age the same, or maybe limit contracts to 6 or 7 years, or maybe make different limits for players over/under 30.

But what does he do? He asks the players to give on every issue, without giving anything in return, and storms out the room in 10 minutes like a 5 year old, and then pulls the deal on the table. And people keep wondering why the PA isn't making huge strides in each offer. If they did, they'd get eaten alive because of Bettman's negotiating approach, especially when he set the whole thing in motion that way with his first offer.

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And what, exactly, are all these concessions that "screwed" them? They got earlier UFA status, higher minimum salary, ended up with 57% of HRR by the end, all while the average salary rose every year of the CBA. That's a pretty good deal from my POV.
Exactly, at least last time they offered the PA some incentives to taking a 25% rollback in salaries, and a brand new hard $39M cap system. They're not offering anything this time, except the 3rd party discipline arbitrator.

They're asking for a drop from 57% to 50%. UFA ages goes up from 27 or 7 seasons, to 28 or 8 seasons. Can't sign a deal longer than 5 years. Teams don't have to sign European players for four years, instead of the two it is now. No more re-entry waivers, so teams can keep players down for as long as they want, and they don't get a chance to go to a team that may want them more.

All the nuances don't get discussed much in the CBA offers, but all the PA has been saying is that they'd be willing to take 50/50 if the current contracts they were promised are honored. I would assume that this means something in the NHL's 50/50 offers amount to a rollback, and this report claims it's about 10%. Not sure where they get that info as they don't explain it in detail.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...backs-be-legal

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10-27-2012, 12:11 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post

But what does he do? He asks the players to give on every issue, without giving anything in return, and storms out the room in 10 minutes like a 5 year old, and then pulls the deal on the table. And people keep wondering why the PA isn't making huge strides in each offer. If they did, they'd get eaten alive because of Bettman's negotiating approach, especially when he set the whole thing in motion that way with his first offer.
The owners are never going to give up linkage. Any offer made by the PA without linkage is a non-starter plain and simple. There is no point in wasting anymore than 10 minutes on offers that lack that mechanism. What other reaction is Bettman going to have when Fehr brings that to the table? Furthermore Bill Daly has indicated more than once that the NHL was more than willing to negotiate further on the non-economic factors such as UFA status, ELCs, etc.

As far as the NHL's first offer is concerned I find it funny that the players making 57% of revenues is reasonable, but the NHL suggesting that they are the ones deserving that amount is simply unconscionable. Quite the hypocrisy considering the investments the owners make.

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10-27-2012, 03:42 PM
  #280
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Exactly, at least last time they offered the PA some incentives to taking a 25% rollback in salaries, and a brand new hard $39M cap system. They're not offering anything this time, except the 3rd party discipline arbitrator.

They're asking for a drop from 57% to 50%. UFA ages goes up from 27 or 7 seasons, to 28 or 8 seasons. Can't sign a deal longer than 5 years. Teams don't have to sign European players for four years, instead of the two it is now. No more re-entry waivers, so teams can keep players down for as long as they want, and they don't get a chance to go to a team that may want them more.

All the nuances don't get discussed much in the CBA offers, but all the PA has been saying is that they'd be willing to take 50/50 if the current contracts they were promised are honored. I would assume that this means something in the NHL's 50/50 offers amount to a rollback, and this report claims it's about 10%. Not sure where they get that info as they don't explain it in detail.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...backs-be-legal
Wasn't that part of a proposal that said contracts count against the cap regardless of where the player is playing, meaning teams can't bury bad contracts in the AHL anymore? That seems like a pretty big concession, though I don't think guys like Redden care since they're raking in the big bucks either way.

As for the other issues, I don't see them as a problem as they're proposals to fix issues that most people recognize as problems. Contract lengths and structure is something everyone knew needed attention, and I believe the NHL's proposal is mutually beneficial: the players don't lose any earning power, and the contract structure levels the playing field more and allows smaller markets a better chance to keep their players. Also, I think I saw something that said without the wild front-loading that the players would get a more consistent share of their HRR split.

As for the 50/50 issue, I actually think the owners have been more willing to work out details than the PA has. The make it whole provisions, while not perfect, at least attempt to make up the difference and give the PA reason to accept. The PA has repeatedly proposed multiple years of a de-linked system, then gradually going down to a 51/49 split if and only if the league sees historic growth in all the preceding years. Their presentation and creative writing makes it seem fair, but when you work out the math they're getting more money and a larger percentage of HRR than they currently are, which is why the NHL declined so fast.

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11-03-2012, 09:32 PM
  #281
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Not sure where else to put it...

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=58058

I'm keeping an eye on the NHL Network airings and trying to find some more hockey to record/watch.

This Oshawa v Guelph game is entertaining for me, some others coming up soon are listed on the website but also below.

11/05/2012 - 2012 Super Series: Russia at Qmjhl from 11/05/12 - NHL Network USA
11/07/2012 - 2012 Super Series: Russia at Qmjhl from 11/07/12 - NHL Network USA
11/08/2012 - 2012 Super Series: Russia at Ohl from 11/08/12 - NHL Network USA
11/09/2012 - Halifax at Gatineau from 11/9/12 - NHL Network USA

If you find some more games which everyone can watch, please post em.

Perhaps someone could make a thread if everyone is interested enough.

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11-04-2012, 12:54 PM
  #282
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Loanwolfe check out the sportsnet schedule, because they are the ones who show the junior games being broadcasted on NHL Network. Also espn was showing KHL action, but that was a utter failure. CBS sports is the college network that will start showing college hockey games and the same with NBC sports.

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11-04-2012, 02:05 PM
  #283
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So with a 60-something game schedule, odds are we won't have any eastern conference games while getting most of our division games.

aka we're screwed

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11-04-2012, 03:27 PM
  #284
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Need to start beating divisional teams at some point. I look forward to it, should it happen.

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11-04-2012, 03:30 PM
  #285
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Need to start beating divisional teams at some point. I look forward to it, should it happen.
That's not going to happen. We can barely beat Edmonton so I don't see it happening.

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11-04-2012, 04:11 PM
  #286
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Need to start beating divisional teams at some point. I look forward to it, should it happen.
Yeah.....no. We could barely beat an often injured Wild team and the ****ing Oilers.

Seth Jones 2013

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11-04-2012, 04:13 PM
  #287
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Well I guess we'll just lose all divisional games and never improve. Silly me.

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11-04-2012, 04:18 PM
  #288
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Well I guess we'll just lose all divisional games and never improve. Silly me.
There's the right attitude


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11-04-2012, 05:52 PM
  #289
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What rules are there for junior players if the season starts? Those that are assigned to their junior teams can't play in the NHL?

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11-04-2012, 08:50 PM
  #290
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That's not going to happen. We can barely beat Edmonton so I don't see it happening.
yeah... but they have Petry

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11-05-2012, 04:04 PM
  #291
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Is there a tiny chance that they could agree on a deal , this time or they are playing with us once again ?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=408889

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NEW YORK -- The NHL and the players' association stuck to their word and made quick plans to get back to the bargaining table.

After all-day negotiations Saturday, the sides agreed Monday to resume talks on Tuesday in New York. Both sides said the discussions over the weekend were good, creating some optimism that perhaps a deal could soon be reached to save the already truncated hockey season....

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11-05-2012, 04:57 PM
  #292
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Is there a tiny chance that they could agree on a deal , this time or they are playing with us once again ?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=408889
Not buying in this time. We are dealing with ego driven greedy men, who have to win no matter the collatoral damage. Zero faith.

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11-05-2012, 10:45 PM
  #293
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I tell ya...I read a couple of articles today and can now say from the tone of those I for one am optimistic that a labor deal can now be reached. I am also optimistic that I won't spend a dime on the NHL this season or next...or even the one after that.

One thing that I've learned this season is that there is always other stuff you can fill your time with. Sometimes it is even important stuff...like going to bed at a reasonable hour. Last lockout, I learned that watching folks drive around a circle and turning only left was a not-suitable replacement for hockey. I also learned that Jerry Jones still owned the Dallas Cowboys and Tom Landry was still dead...so the NFL still offered me nothing.

This season I've started ignoring TV all-together and started reading more. I've also started enjoying cooking more...more than just following some recipe...actually creating. Tequila cheesy chicken was a huge hit with the wife. The pancetta-wrapped scallops weren't received poorly either.

This season I've learned that I really don't mind being not having NHL hockey. I was constantly checking websites for news last time and this time...well, I haven't even been around this place for a couple of weeks, even as a lurker. I've made my peace...the NHL will do fine when it comes back, but I'm also going to do fine if it doesn't. It wasn't them...it was me. I'm watching less hockey...a couple of UAF games a month but those are live and in person. The atmosphere around the Carlson Center is kinda like the waiting room in a mortuary though...Thinking of applying for a job that is not currently available but just walking in and telling them they need to make a change and I'm the guy to help...but even with the dead atmosphere, it's not worse than listening to Peter and Mike try and make rainbow stew out of everything.

I didn't want to make a stupid poll out of this but was just curious...you are all hockey fans (I assume) but what are y'all filling your "free-time" with now and how happy are you with it as a replacement? On a scale of 1-10 (10 being the happiest) I'm a solid 7. That might seem less than enthusiastic but if the NHL was playing a full season and the AVs were losing left and right my happiness index would've been around a 2 or 3.

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11-06-2012, 06:34 AM
  #294
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I've been spending my hockey time reading "Song of Ice and Fire".
I miss NHL hockey, though, and will be watching whenever they get this CBA resolved.
Scale of 1-10? Well, the books are about an 8/10 to me, so I am enjoying the time I spend on them.
(They keep my mind off of smoking, too, so that's a plus.)

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11-06-2012, 07:02 AM
  #295
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I'm using my time in the gym, but since games are later on the east coast a lot of what I'd be spending watching games I'm using for sleep.

Indifferent to it really, but I can firmly say I'd rather lose this year to get a solid CBA than to go through another lockout situation in 5-6 years.

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11-06-2012, 01:30 PM
  #296
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I use my time sleeping instead of waking up in the middle of the night.

What has happened because of this is that I'm less asleep at lectures. So that's good.

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11-06-2012, 02:19 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by expatriated_texan View Post
I tell ya...I read a couple of articles today and can now say from the tone of those I for one am optimistic that a labor deal can now be reached. I am also optimistic that I won't spend a dime on the NHL this season or next...or even the one after that.

One thing that I've learned this season is that there is always other stuff you can fill your time with. Sometimes it is even important stuff...like going to bed at a reasonable hour. Last lockout, I learned that watching folks drive around a circle and turning only left was a not-suitable replacement for hockey. I also learned that Jerry Jones still owned the Dallas Cowboys and Tom Landry was still dead...so the NFL still offered me nothing.

This season I've started ignoring TV all-together and started reading more. I've also started enjoying cooking more...more than just following some recipe...actually creating. Tequila cheesy chicken was a huge hit with the wife. The pancetta-wrapped scallops weren't received poorly either.

This season I've learned that I really don't mind being not having NHL hockey. I was constantly checking websites for news last time and this time...well, I haven't even been around this place for a couple of weeks, even as a lurker. I've made my peace...the NHL will do fine when it comes back, but I'm also going to do fine if it doesn't. It wasn't them...it was me. I'm watching less hockey...a couple of UAF games a month but those are live and in person. The atmosphere around the Carlson Center is kinda like the waiting room in a mortuary though...Thinking of applying for a job that is not currently available but just walking in and telling them they need to make a change and I'm the guy to help...but even with the dead atmosphere, it's not worse than listening to Peter and Mike try and make rainbow stew out of everything.

I didn't want to make a stupid poll out of this but was just curious...you are all hockey fans (I assume) but what are y'all filling your "free-time" with now and how happy are you with it as a replacement? On a scale of 1-10 (10 being the happiest) I'm a solid 7. That might seem less than enthusiastic but if the NHL was playing a full season and the AVs were losing left and right my happiness index would've been around a 2 or 3.
I've been writing a game-by-game, period-by-period 'simulation' of the NHL season.

Since you've been reading more, are you interested in purchasing it?

The Avs are only .500 so far. (wow, even in my imagination, Joe Sacco can't coach the Avs to a winning record )

I'll make you a great deal at half the cost of NHL Center Ice.

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11-09-2012, 07:03 PM
  #298
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@FriedgeHNIC: NHL is very frustrated by Fehr...they are going after him. The gloves are off now.
I see Fehr is trolling everyone once again.

Everyone needs to stop getting so optimistic when the two sides meet. This is what Fehr does. Just go back and read the articles about the MLB strike when Fehr was the leader for the players. Until the players tell Fehr to stop ****ing around, there will be no deal.

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11-09-2012, 07:23 PM
  #299
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I see Fehr is trolling everyone once again.

Everyone needs to stop getting so optimistic when the two sides meet. This is what Fehr does. Just go back and read the articles about the MLB strike when Fehr was the leader for the players. Until the players tell Fehr to stop ****ing around, there will be no deal.
I would be very surprised to learn that the players are ok with Fehr NOT giving them all the information on proposals made by the NHL. Unless you're suggesting that players who wanted to have their contracts honored, which they now would be getting with interest, by Year 3, prefer to keep screwing around on purpose to keep the lockout going in a futile attempt to eliminate the salary cap or something?? That's not gonna happen.

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11-09-2012, 08:57 PM
  #300
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I just have no idea why the players would hire a non-hockey person as the head of their organization.

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