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Your top 6 RW to the Devils

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Old
08-28-2012, 02:32 PM
  #176
handyj
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
On what teams would Henrik Tallinder and Andy Greene be #5 defensemen?

MacArthur is an extremely unspectacular player. Doesn't play PK, sheltered ES minutes, PP time, not very physical. He's a warm body. What does he have that David Clarkson and Dainius Zubrus don't? Because one of them is going to be playing top-6 minutes for us this year, and both had better seasons than MacArthur did.

Surplus D is a luxury that not many teams have, we're not just going to hand it out for guys that don't make us better. Guys like Tedenby and Butler will be given opportunities before we waste assets on guys that don't make our team better. MacArthur doesn't give us anything that we don't already have, and quite frankly, I think he's a mediocre hockey player to begin with.
Well I'm not going to go through the league team by team, but on the Leafs I would put Phaneuf, Gardiner, Gunnarson, and Liles all ahead of Tallinder and Greene, so they're #5's at best. They are the defensive version of how you described MacArthur, 'extremely unspectacular'. They play their positions and won't necessarily hurt you but those aren't the kind of players that bring in legit top six forwards. The only reason I would suggest a swap of Mac for one of those two is because we have more excess 'meh' forwards than defense and it would even out depth a bit for both teams.

I can understand if the Devils wouldn't want guys like MacArthur (or his caliber) as you probably are just as well off using Zubrus and Clarkson, but you're not going to get what you're looking for if all you want to give up is a 'meh' middling defenseman and whatever other random garbage you don't want. That's my point.

Leafs' fans on here are probably the worst offenders of this, but it goes for every fanbase. Everyone thinks they can package some average assets and spare pieces together and then delude themselves into thinking that some other team will give them a star, but this isn't NHL 2012 and that kind of thing doesn't work.

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08-28-2012, 02:49 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
You're underrating Tallinder and Greene here. They are much better than guys like Franson, Komisarek, and Holzer. Maybe not valuable enough to fetch a top 6 forward alone, but certainly middle pairing or better defencemen, and a decent starting point for a trade package that could return a guy like Franzen, especially when Detroit needs defencemen.
I wasn't trying to say Tallinder and Greene aren't better than Franson and Komisarek, I was just trying to show how ridiculous it seems for a fanbase to say "here's our 4-5-6 defenceman, give us a legit top six now please". I highly doubt any of the players discussed in this thread are anywhere close to a starting point for a package for Franzen. They may need d-men, but they aren't going to make a hole in their top six for bottom pairing guys (especially with Hudler gone as well).

The fact is you need to trade value for value. No team would rightfully think they will be better with a lineup with Tallinder and Tedenby as opposed to Commodore/Kindl and Franzen. Tallinder or Greene might be an upgrade but not anywhere near the downgrade from Franzen to whoever else.

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08-28-2012, 02:49 PM
  #178
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I had no idea the Leafs defense was so amazing.

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08-28-2012, 03:02 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by JerseyGuy276 View Post
I had no idea the Leafs defense was so amazing.
Haha, nobody said the Leafs' defense was amazing. But, would you trade Tallinder or Greene for Dion Phaneuf? Would you trade one for Gardiner? Liles? Gunnarson? You would, because they are all better (well Gunn may be more of a lateral move, but you get my point). And I'm sure almost every fanbase can name three or four d-men on their team better than Tallinder and Greene. That, my friend, makes them #4-5 d-men no matter how you slice it.

Whether you put down other teams' or not, it doesn't change the fact that Tallinder and Greene are about 20 min TOI guys that provide no offense and are decent in their own end while playing in front of a HHOF goalie, and that's not getting Franzen or any other top six forward.

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08-28-2012, 03:14 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by handyj View Post
Well I'm not going to go through the league team by team, but on the Leafs I would put Phaneuf, Gardiner, Gunnarson, and Liles all ahead of Tallinder and Greene, so they're #5's at best. They are the defensive version of how you described MacArthur, 'extremely unspectacular'. They play their positions and won't necessarily hurt you but those aren't the kind of players that bring in legit top six forwards. The only reason I would suggest a swap of Mac for one of those two is because we have more excess 'meh' forwards than defense and it would even out depth a bit for both teams.

I can understand if the Devils wouldn't want guys like MacArthur (or his caliber) as you probably are just as well off using Zubrus and Clarkson, but you're not going to get what you're looking for if all you want to give up is a 'meh' middling defenseman and whatever other random garbage you don't want. That's my point.

Leafs' fans on here are probably the worst offenders of this, but it goes for every fanbase. Everyone thinks they can package some average assets and spare pieces together and then delude themselves into thinking that some other team will give them a star, but this isn't NHL 2012 and that kind of thing doesn't work.


Believe it or not but Greene or Tallinder would be your #2 defence-man without any doubt. They're just not flashy but the job, eating minutes, facing tough comp etc, etc, they get it done. And pretty well.

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08-28-2012, 04:01 PM
  #181
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Greene. Best defenseman on a team that just lost the Stanley cup. He is def. not a 5-6 defenseman. He is a number 2 easily. Instead of looking at a players stats and judging how good he is by that watch a handful of games and analyze it. Many people can't or don't and just look at stats. If you look at phaneufs stats he I a pretty good defenseman. If you watch him play, you will see that he is horrible positionally and Is highly overrated. Many leaf fans were quick to judge goaltending last year bit faile to realize that phaneufs defensive game was more of a problem.

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08-28-2012, 04:46 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Yuri the Fury View Post
Believe it or not but Greene or Tallinder would be your #2 defence-man without any doubt. They're just not flashy but the job, eating minutes, facing tough comp etc, etc, they get it done. And pretty well.
I'm just curious if there are any post lockout examples of dmen leaving New Jersey and thriving elsewhere. I would just like to know how much is a result of quality dmen and how much is a result of a quality system. The only high profile example i can think of is Paul Martin, but he's not exactly thriving.

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08-28-2012, 04:54 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
I'm just curious if there are any post lockout examples of dmen leaving New Jersey and thriving elsewhere. I would just like to know how much is a result of quality dmen and how much is a result of a quality system. The only high profile example i can think of is Paul Martin, but he's not exactly thriving.
Rafalski and Niedermayer.

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08-28-2012, 05:04 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
I'm just curious if there are any post lockout examples of dmen leaving New Jersey and thriving elsewhere. I would just like to know how much is a result of quality dmen and how much is a result of a quality system. The only high profile example i can think of is Paul Martin, but he's not exactly thriving.
the 'system' has changed like 4 times in the past 5 years.

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08-28-2012, 05:09 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
I'm just curious if there are any post lockout examples of dmen leaving New Jersey and thriving elsewhere. I would just like to know how much is a result of quality dmen and how much is a result of a quality system. The only high profile example i can think of is Paul Martin, but he's not exactly thriving.
Paul Martin was just overrated. Plenty of Devils fans were happy he left for the money he was asking for.


In all honesty, Tallinder was fine with Buffalo, he's still with the Devils.

Then Greene is Devils' #1 defence-man, I think he'd do well with any system. Smart puck mover, good positionning, way stronger than you'd thought just by seeing his size, can play physical when needed (playoffs). You'll never hear a word about him during a game, but for a defenceman, that's a serious compliment.

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08-28-2012, 05:09 PM
  #186
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the 'system' has changed like 4 times in the past 5 years.
I wanted to point out this too.

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08-28-2012, 08:15 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
I'm just curious if there are any post lockout examples of dmen leaving New Jersey and thriving elsewhere. I would just like to know how much is a result of quality dmen and how much is a result of a quality system. The only high profile example i can think of is Paul Martin, but he's not exactly thriving.
Oduya and Martin are the only two higher profile guys that have left in the last few years.

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08-28-2012, 08:21 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Puckclektr View Post
Greene. Best defenseman on a team that just lost the Stanley cup. He is def. not a 5-6 defenseman. He is a number 2 easily. Instead of looking at a players stats and judging how good he is by that watch a handful of games and analyze it. Many people can't or don't and just look at stats. If you look at phaneufs stats he I a pretty good defenseman. If you watch him play, you will see that he is horrible positionally and Is highly overrated. Many leaf fans were quick to judge goaltending last year bit faile to realize that phaneufs defensive game was more of a problem.
Holy hell you guys are overrating Greene and Tallinder just as much as other guys are underrating, and yes, I'm a Devils fan.

Examples of number one defensemen: Weber, Suter, Keith, Pronger, Chara
Examples of number twos: Timonen, Campbell, Byfuglien, Edler, Phaneuf
Examples of 3/4 defensemen: Carle, B. Stuart (he was), Liles, Ohlund (same as B. Stuart), Coburn, Ference, Seidenberg

I wouldn't group any of our defensemen in the top two categories. I would however, say that Tallinder, Greene, Volchenkov, Zidlicky, Salvador all belong in the 3/4 group. Fayne could be there, but he has to prove himself, so too does Larsson.

Number two guy is a pretty big stretch there, not saying his bad, but I'd be hesitant to put him in that grouping.

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08-28-2012, 08:38 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy316 View Post
Holy hell you guys are overrating Greene and Tallinder just as much as other guys are underrating, and yes, I'm a Devils fan.

Examples of number one defensemen: Weber, Suter, Keith, Pronger, Chara
Examples of number twos: Timonen, Campbell, Byfuglien, Edler, Phaneuf
Examples of 3/4 defensemen: Carle, B. Stuart (he was), Liles, Ohlund (same as B. Stuart), Coburn, Ference, Seidenberg

I wouldn't group any of our defensemen in the top two categories. I would however, say that Tallinder, Greene, Volchenkov, Zidlicky, Salvador all belong in the 3/4 group. Fayne could be there, but he has to prove himself, so too does Larsson.

Number two guy is a pretty big stretch there, not saying his bad, but I'd be hesitant to put him in that grouping.
Greene is better than Byfuglien and Timonen.

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08-28-2012, 08:46 PM
  #190
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To Montreal:
Volchenkov

To Devils:
Gionta
3rd 2013
I'd do this in a heartbeat!

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08-28-2012, 08:47 PM
  #191
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Gionta for Fayne OR Tallinder + 2nd.
No to Fayne. Yes to Tallinder.

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08-28-2012, 08:47 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
Byfuglien is pushin 3 bills

Timonen will be 38 by season's end and just had back surgery

Greene is a better all around player than both of them, quite easily IMO
Timonen when healthy is better than Greene.

Byfuglien brings more to the table that Greene does.

When it comes down to it, Greene is a solid number three but a serviceable number two. I don't know what you see in Greene, but he is definitely not as good as you say he is.

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08-28-2012, 08:49 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Zippy316 View Post
Timonen when healthy is better than Greene.

Byfuglien brings more to the table that Greene does.

When it comes down to it, Greene is a solid number three but a serviceable number two. I don't know what you see in Greene, but he is definitely not as good as you say he is.
Greene is a solid player. He can definitely be a top pairing guy for sure. As far as being better than Timonen or Buff. Eh, I wouldn't be able to answer that. 3 different players.

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08-28-2012, 09:55 PM
  #194
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"Byfuglien brings more to the table than Greene does"

based on what?

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08-28-2012, 10:54 PM
  #195
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Don't think the Habs would trade their Captain. With all the hoopla that surrounds the position in this city, it would take a lot and most likely a high profile francophone player coming back. Or it would take a Gionta with his worst season start in his hole career.

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08-29-2012, 12:38 AM
  #196
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actually you could say that Big Buff TAKES more from the table than Greene does given his playing weight.....

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08-29-2012, 01:15 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Thee GM View Post
New Jersey: Evander Kane

Winnipeg: Mark Fayne, Bryce Salvador + 1st/2nd Round pick

Devils get a top right winger to compliment Kovalchuk.

Jets get a good young D-Man and a solid veteran. Winnipeg's defense would look like:

Byfuglien - Enstrom
Bogosian - Hainsey
Fayne - Salvador
Stuart - Clitsome
The Devils would do that, the Jets would not.

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I wasn't trying to say Tallinder and Greene aren't better than Franson and Komisarek, I was just trying to show how ridiculous it seems for a fanbase to say "here's our 4-5-6 defenceman, give us a legit top six now please". I highly doubt any of the players discussed in this thread are anywhere close to a starting point for a package for Franzen. They may need d-men, but they aren't going to make a hole in their top six for bottom pairing guys (especially with Hudler gone as well).
Except Tallinder, Volchenkov, and Greene aren't "4-5-6" guys. More like "2-3-4". The Devils' defence in the Cup Final essentially had three middle pairings, that's why it worked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
the 'system' has changed like 4 times in the past 5 years.
By "Devils system", they mean "Marty". Except when they want to put down Marty, then the "system" changes in meaning to become "Hall of Fame defencemen". Except when they want to impugn our recently ramshackle defence, then the "system" means "Lemaire's trap". Except when they want to lampoon our frequent coaching changes, then the "system" becomes "Lou". I can't keep all these disparate meanings of "system" straight.

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08-29-2012, 07:20 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Yuri the Fury View Post
Believe it or not but Greene or Tallinder would be your #2 defence-man without any doubt. They're just not flashy but the job, eating minutes, facing tough comp etc, etc, they get it done. And pretty well.
OK, I may be underrating these guys a little bit, but no chance they would break up our top pairing of Phaneuf and Gunnarsson. Everyone likes to bash Phaneuf, but if you wanna talk about tough competition he faced tougher minutes than any NJ defender by a wide margin. If you want some statistical evidence take a look at Corsi's, Dion and Gunn were 1.399 and 1.145, while Tallinder and Greene were 0.701 and 0.644. As another poster pointed out, NJ seemed to use their pairings more spread out against the competition, and TOR gave Dion and Gunn all the tough assignments.

That being said though, one of those guys might be nice to pair as a #4 with Gardiner, but certainly not at the asking price. They are good guys to pair with a PMD if you don't have any better shutdown options, but they're not #2's on most teams.

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08-29-2012, 07:31 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
Except Tallinder, Volchenkov, and Greene aren't "4-5-6" guys. More like "2-3-4". The Devils' defence in the Cup Final essentially had three middle pairings, that's why it worked.
I guess where you rate them is all relative to the players around them. I'm not trying to call them junk by any means, but on most teams they would be guys in the middle pairing playing responsibly with a PMD. On teams with deeper defenses they'd be in the third pairing.

I've seen a few Devils' fans in here mentioning their position on the depth chart of a "Cup Finals defense" as if that should make them more valuable, but it doesn't change their talent levels as individual players. They all played well in the playoffs and the team got hot at the right time, but it was also a team that was very unexceptional for the regular season. And just because someone like Greene played the minutes of a #2 for a Cup run doesn't mean he is now and forever a #2 d-man to every other team in the league.

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08-29-2012, 08:36 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by handyj View Post
OK, I may be underrating these guys a little bit, but no chance they would break up our top pairing of Phaneuf and Gunnarsson. Everyone likes to bash Phaneuf, but if you wanna talk about tough competition he faced tougher minutes than any NJ defender by a wide margin. If you want some statistical evidence take a look at Corsi's, Dion and Gunn were 1.399 and 1.145, while Tallinder and Greene were 0.701 and 0.644. As another poster pointed out, NJ seemed to use their pairings more spread out against the competition, and TOR gave Dion and Gunn all the tough assignments.

That being said though, one of those guys might be nice to pair as a #4 with Gardiner, but certainly not at the asking price. They are good guys to pair with a PMD if you don't have any better shutdown options, but they're not #2's on most teams.

Greene was #1 defence-man on a team that was 2 games away from the Stanley Cup and he'd #4 with Toronto. Yeah that's right.

I'm all for advanced stats, but you need to watch some Devils obviously. Phaneuf-Greene would easily be your top pairing.

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