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Kadri vs. Bozak

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Old
08-24-2012, 08:35 AM
  #101
ULF_55
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
I think your proposal of letting him play in the third line center is okay, but no to keep him there, I'd imagine if he continues to strive under Carlyle's tutelage, he could really steal that spot from Bozak.
"I'd imagine if he continues to strive ..." Do you mean if he can strive in the NHL under Carlyle's tutelage?

Before he steals anything from anyone he has to become a NHL player.

Leafs' fans have to show some patience, and allow the process to take place. Juniors, minors leagues than the big leagues is the correct process for all but the best prospects. By best prospects, I mean league wide, players like Skinner, who show they understand what it takes and don't come to camp expecting they're the best thing since sliced bread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Simpson_(ice_hockey)

Dave was too high on himself, and came across as saying (in an interview not sure it would be anywhere online) he was better than some NHL players on the Islanders. Dave never really did get his career on track, even though he was one of the best junior players in Canada.

Let's let Kadri grow into his NHL career, without setting him up for failure by expecting him to go from being a good AHL player to a 1st. line NHL center over a summer of no hockey.

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08-24-2012, 09:35 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
They aren't this year and next for Kessel, JVR and Bozie.

When Grabo hits one of his 1 goal in 15 game slumps or is perhaps 5th in team scoring, can I quote this post? I'll save it to my notepad.
Go ahead, I don't see what it proves. Like I said, if he plays with the same intensity and puts up 50+ points he'll be worth it - whether or not he's 5th on the team in scoring or 1st

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08-24-2012, 11:49 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Go ahead, I don't see what it proves. Like I said, if he plays with the same intensity and puts up 50+ points he'll be worth it - whether or not he's 5th on the team in scoring or 1st
The overwhelming evidence of Grabovski's importance to this team has been shown to him many times, so he knows. He just refuses to admit it.

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08-24-2012, 11:57 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
The overwhelming evidence of Grabovski's importance to this team has been shown to him many times, so he knows. He just refuses to admit it.
The guys an absolute workhorse and (imo) deserves to be overpaid by the 500K he currently is. My only concern is that his style of play may lead to injuries

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08-24-2012, 12:57 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
The overwhelming evidence of Grabovski's importance to this team has been shown to him many times, so he knows. He just refuses to admit it.
Yeah, he's so important that even when he takes his months long breaks (Oct-Dec, Feb-Apr), the team still keeps chugging along on the backs of the first line. Only when Lupul goes down, and Grabo line is still out for lunch does the team begin to splutter.

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08-24-2012, 01:07 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
"I'd imagine if he continues to strive ..." Do you mean if he can strive in the NHL under Carlyle's tutelage?

Before he steals anything from anyone he has to become a NHL player.

Leafs' fans have to show some patience, and allow the process to take place. Juniors, minors leagues than the big leagues is the correct process for all but the best prospects. By best prospects, I mean league wide, players like Skinner, who show they understand what it takes and don't come to camp expecting they're the best thing since sliced bread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Simpson_(ice_hockey)

Dave was too high on himself, and came across as saying (in an interview not sure it would be anywhere online) he was better than some NHL players on the Islanders. Dave never really did get his career on track, even though he was one of the best junior players in Canada.

Let's let Kadri grow into his NHL career, without setting him up for failure by expecting him to go from being a good AHL player to a 1st. line NHL center over a summer of no hockey.
I agree ULF. A first line role is probably too much to ask of him.

2nd line winger-prove you can play
3rd line center-prove you can play center, and defence
2nd line center-time for top 6
1st line center-only if everything else goes well.

In that order will be fine for Naz.

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08-24-2012, 01:17 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
I agree ULF. A first line role is probably too much to ask of him.

2nd line winger-prove you can play
3rd line center-prove you can play center, and defence
2nd line center-time for top 6
1st line center-only if everything else goes well.

In that order will be fine for Naz.
I suspect he'd be an ideal candidate to get extra ice time on the PP, and would think if they have any plans for moving him to center, 3rd. line center would be an ideal launching pad. Max Talbot scored 19 goals for the Flyers as a center getting 16 minutes a night.

Leafs don't have a shortage of questionable centers.

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08-24-2012, 02:03 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I suspect he'd be an ideal candidate to get extra ice time on the PP, and would think if they have any plans for moving him to center, 3rd. line center would be an ideal launching pad. Max Talbot scored 19 goals for the Flyers as a center getting 16 minutes a night.

Leafs don't have a shortage of questionable centers.
I'd be very happy watching Kadri centering Biggs and Ross on the 3rd line a few years from now.

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08-24-2012, 02:59 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
I'd be very happy watching Kadri centering Biggs and Ross on the 3rd line a few years from now.
As long as we can upgrade #1C and #2C by then, it wouldn't be a bad line.

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08-24-2012, 03:34 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
As long as we can upgrade #1C and #2C by then, it wouldn't be a bad line.
Colborne at 2C with JVR and Frattin. But yes, we need to upgrade the #1C.

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08-24-2012, 05:39 PM
  #111
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I like these lines:

LUPUL - BOZAK - KESSEL
JVR - KADRI - GRABOVSKI

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08-24-2012, 05:53 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by tmlhockeyfan View Post
Strictly between these two, who would you rather see as the Leafs first line centre? In the Toronto Maple Leafs facebooks page, many people post line combos and it's usually one or the other that they put as first line centre.
Can we trade both of them for a decent center

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08-24-2012, 06:35 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Yeah, he's so important that even when he takes his months long breaks (Oct-Dec, Feb-Apr), the team still keeps chugging along on the backs of the first line. Only when Lupul goes down, and Grabo line is still out for lunch does the team begin to splutter.
Scoring is far from the only thing Grabovski does, which makes him so important.

Also, did you seriously just say that Grabovski only played well and got all his points in January? Might want to double-check that, assuming you aren't just trolling.

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08-24-2012, 06:44 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Mojo19 View Post
I like these lines:

LUPUL - BOZAK - KESSEL
JVR - KADRI - GRABOVSKI
Why take Kadri off the wing and put Grabo there? Why not just keep Kadri on the wing and Grabo at centre?

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08-24-2012, 09:09 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
The overwhelming evidence of Grabovski's importance to this team has been shown to him many times, so he knows. He just refuses to admit it.
You speak of the supposed overwhelming evidence of the IMPORTANCE of a player to a team that 2 out of 4 years has been a lottery team finishing as bad as 2nd worst in the League. What's your point he is an important member of making us a lottery team? This is supposed to be a good thing? Or this is your way of telling us we would have been even worse without Grabo. 26th is pretty bad in my books, maybe your standards are that much lower than mine. To each is own.

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08-24-2012, 09:40 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by tmlhockeyfan View Post
Strictly between these two, who would you rather see as the Leafs first line centre? In the Toronto Maple Leafs facebooks page, many people post line combos and it's usually one or the other that they put as first line centre.
Alternate between the two until Kadri becomes comfortable playing two way hockey as our #1.

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08-24-2012, 09:56 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Scoring is far from the only thing Grabovski does, which makes him so important.

Also, did you seriously just say that Grabovski only played well and got all his points in January? Might want to double-check that, assuming you aren't just trolling.
Yes, yes, all the heart of the team, fighting Neil and the likes, blah blah. He's our version of Toews to hear some fans talk about him. Mr. Intangibles, defensive force, grittest player on our team, one of our best PKers, and I'm sure you can come up with a few other ones, as well. That'd be fine (if it was true) for a $3M player, but at $5.5M, production on the scoreboard (on at least a semi consistent basis) should be expected. Some people are content with mediocrity, though.

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08-25-2012, 03:33 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You speak of the supposed overwhelming evidence of the IMPORTANCE of a player to a team that 2 out of 4 years has been a lottery team finishing as bad as 2nd worst in the League. What's your point he is an important member of making us a lottery team? This is supposed to be a good thing? Or this is your way of telling us we would have been even worse without Grabo. 26th is pretty bad in my books, maybe your standards are that much lower than mine. To each is own.
Ah, the old "one man makes a team" argument. Classically stupid. Even more-so when you expect the 2nd-line center to do it.

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Yes, yes, all the heart of the team, fighting Neil and the likes, blah blah. He's our version of Toews to hear some fans talk about him. Mr. Intangibles, defensive force, grittest player on our team, one of our best PKers, and I'm sure you can come up with a few other ones, as well. That'd be fine (if it was true) for a $3M player, but at $5.5M, production on the scoreboard (on at least a semi consistent basis) should be expected. Some people are content with mediocrity, though.
And he does produce on a consistent basis, so I am not sure what your point is. Yes, he has had some slow stretches, like essentially every player in the NHL, but he has also had stretches where he has won us games almost single-handedly. Just because the points aren't going up in the games that you decide you want them to, doesn't mean they aren't going up, or aren't as important to the team.

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08-25-2012, 03:56 AM
  #119
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And he does produce on a consistent basis, so I am not sure what your point is. Yes, he has had some slow stretches, like essentially every player in the NHL, but he has also had stretches where he has won us games almost single-handedly. Just because the points aren't going up in the games that you decide you want them to, doesn't mean they aren't going up, or aren't as important to the team.
Most NHL players' "slow stretches" don't span over the course of 4-5 months. 0.5 PPG isn't going to cut it even if he does have a PPG+ month. If we're just looking to get a 0.5 PPG #2C, we could have found one for a lot cheaper than $5.5M. Heck, I'd rather have Colborne playing, as I'm fairly confident he can manage that much right now, and he has some size that's desperately lacking in our top 6.

Just because the points are going up in the games you decide you want them to (in January) doesn't mean it's an "overwhelming evidence" of Grabo's importance to the team. Given the amount of attention oppositions are paying to shut the Kessel line down, the Grabo line should essentially get a free ride in terms of coverage.

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08-25-2012, 06:27 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
Why take Kadri off the wing and put Grabo there? Why not just keep Kadri on the wing and Grabo at centre?
Because Kadri is a natural centre, and we should be grooming him to be a #1 centre some day. He is the best forward prospect Toronto has had in over a decade.

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08-25-2012, 08:22 AM
  #121
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Ah, the old "one man makes a team" argument. Classically stupid. Even more-so when you expect the 2nd-line center to do it.
After saying he is overwhelmingly important to the team, you now make a convenient ready made excuse for Grabo because he is only a 5.5M 2nd line C so he absolved of any blame for this team's absymal record these past 4 years? Make up your mind either he is a valuable core piece to the team or he is not.

BTW, Leafs were in first place in October last year with Grabo off to one of his usual slow starts, that's how important he is to the team. They did it without him.

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08-25-2012, 08:33 AM
  #122
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Most NHL players' "slow stretches" don't span over the course of 4-5 months. 0.5 PPG isn't going to cut it even if he does have a PPG+ month. If we're just looking to get a 0.5 PPG #2C, we could have found one for a lot cheaper than $5.5M. Heck, I'd rather have Colborne playing, as I'm fairly confident he can manage that much right now, and he has some size that's desperately lacking in our top 6.

Just because the points are going up in the games you decide you want them to (in January) doesn't mean it's an "overwhelming evidence" of Grabo's importance to the team. Given the amount of attention oppositions are paying to shut the Kessel line down, the Grabo line should essentially get a free ride in terms of coverage.
At some point this season I would like to see Bozak, Kadri and Colborne get the reigns to this team. Bozak already is only 4 pts shy of 51 points, Grabo's standard. I am sure in a year or 2 Kadri and or Colborne could easily match that moderate standard. This team's culture needs a shake up, and like it or not the Center that has been here the longest is part of the culture of mediocrity. At 5.5M for the on and off secondary scoring he is supposed to produce, he is a player of little value with the lack of intangibles he brings to the team. I'm all for turning over the reigns to Bozie, Kadri, and Joe and see what they can collectively. There's nowhere to go but higher than the lotto team we have been.

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08-25-2012, 10:30 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Most NHL players' "slow stretches" don't span over the course of 4-5 months. 0.5 PPG isn't going to cut it even if he does have a PPG+ month. If we're just looking to get a 0.5 PPG #2C, we could have found one for a lot cheaper than $5.5M. Heck, I'd rather have Colborne playing, as I'm fairly confident he can manage that much right now, and he has some size that's desperately lacking in our top 6.
games 1 - 11 (October)
grabo: 11 games: 8 points
mac: 8 games: 6 points
kule: 11 games: 5 points

games 12 - 25 (November)
grabo: 9 games: 3 points (20 games: 11p)
mac: 11 games: 6 points (19 games: 12p)
kule: 14 games: 6 points (25 games: 11p)

In the month of November Grabo didn't produce that well but was injured for a few games midway and when he was ready to play the last few games, he was slotted to center the 4th line.

games 26 - 38 (Decemeber)
grabo: 12 games: 8 points (32 games: 19p)
mac: 12 games: 7 points (31 games: 19p)
kule: 13 games: 4 points (38 games: 15p)

These 3 didn't play together throughout December as a mix of crabb, kadri, lombardi were put in.

games 39 - 50 (January)
grabo: 12 games: 16 points (44 games: 35p)
mac: 12 games: 7 points (43 games: 26p)
kule: 12 games: 7 points (50 games: 22p)

games 51 - 64 (February)
grabo: 14 games: 7 points (58 games: 42p)
mac: 14 games: 8 points (57 games: 34p)
kule: 14 games: 5 points (64 games: 27p)

These 3 played together all but 2 games if I'm not mistaken where connolly replaced kulemin for 2 games. This month was meh for the trio, not much disparity tho except kulemin kinda.

games 65 - 82 (March&April)
grabo: 16 games: 9points (74games: 51p)
mac: 16 games: 9 points (73 games: 41p)
kule: injury; 6 games: 1 point (70 games: 28p)

the last 2 months, Grabo got 9p in 16 which isn't too bad considering his linemates were:
ashton - grabo - mac (final game)
- (Grabo did not play I believe)
MacArthur-Grabo-Crabb
Connolly - Grabo - Crabb
MacArthur-Grabovski-Frattin
Ryan Hamilton-Mikhail Grabovski-Nazem Kadri
ashton - grabo - connolly
ashton - grabo - frattin
ashton - grabo - frattin
ashton - grabo - frattin
- (don't know the line)
MacArthur - Grabovski - Kulemin
MacArthur - Grabovski - Kulemin
MacArthur - Grabovski - Kulemin
MacArthur - Grabovski - frattin
MacArthur - Grabovski - frattin
MacArthur - Grabovski - frattin (game 66)

I don't think there is much of a problem with Grabo producing. He's more than a 0.5 ppg C. His production barely dropped from last years as he was on pace for 56 in 82 games. Mac and kulemin though dropped a lot.

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08-25-2012, 10:47 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You speak of the supposed overwhelming evidence of the IMPORTANCE of a player to a team that 2 out of 4 years has been a lottery team finishing as bad as 2nd worst in the League.

What's your point he is an important member of making us a lottery team? This is supposed to be a good thing? Or this is your way of telling us we would have been even worse without Grabo. 26th is pretty bad in my books, maybe your standards are that much lower than mine. To each is own.
So you are now claiming Grabovski is the most important player on the Leafs?

Many other people just think he is the Leafs best center, but you are placing him higher in the importance order.

Now if only they had other players with his heart.

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08-25-2012, 12:05 PM
  #125
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So you are now claiming Grabovski is the most important player on the Leafs?

Many other people just think he is the Leafs best center, but you are placing him higher in the importance order.

Now if only they had other players with his heart.
As the highest paid Leafs fwd this season, I definitely expect him to be substantially better than Bozak or Connolly. I am betting against Grabo. Seen his one dimensional act too long.

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