HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Notices

Wings sign Carlo Colaiacovo

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-25-2012, 09:51 AM
  #101
solo16
Registered User
 
solo16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 3,574
vCash: 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Oh please. He looked better than Meech and Quincey at that time.


Wings overpaid Lilja and Chelios, which is why they had to be frugal in other spots on the roster.
People quickly forget how adequate Lebda was on our team. He was a 5/6 on a Stanley cup winning team. He served us very well. He is easy to make fun of but he was quite solid albeit never spectacular.

Who are you going to put on the ice that would be better than 2008 Lebda/Lilja?

I suppose that says everything we need to know about our defense.

solo16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 10:24 AM
  #102
Harnessed in Slums
Registered User
 
Harnessed in Slums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the Garage
Posts: 9,293
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
People quickly forget how adequate Lebda was on our team. He was a 5/6 on a Stanley cup winning team. He served us very well. He is easy to make fun of but he was quite solid albeit never spectacular.

Who are you going to put on the ice that would be better than 2008 Lebda/Lilja?

I suppose that says everything we need to know about our defense.
Our top 4 on defense was Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart. We were lucky to not have any significant injuries like we did in 06-07 when Kronner and Schneider were both out of the lineup during the playoffs. The one benefit Lilja always had that some people cannot seem to grasp is that he could play a lot of PK mins. Lebda could never do much on the specialty teams.

Keeping the other team from scoring when you are short handed is kinda important.

Harnessed in Slums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 11:54 AM
  #103
GretzkysOffice
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 129
vCash: 500
this is great for my fantasy team! just traded for CC

GretzkysOffice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 12:27 PM
  #104
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Detroit's system puck possession system and its amazing succession of two-way centers makes defenseman look better than they are.

Name the last Detroit defenseman who left Detroit and looked better at his new team.

Lilja? Nope.
Lebda? Nope.
Schneider? Nope.
Quincey? Wasn't really ever in Detroit the first time.
Anders Ericsson? Nope.
Max Kuznetsov? Nope.
Freddie Olausson? Nope.

I think the most recent defenseman who improved after leaving Detroit was Aaron Ward, who enjoyed a bigger role elsewhere.

On the other hand, there are many cases of Detroit forwards who leave the Wings and become better players.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 12:45 PM
  #105
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 29,110
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Our top 4 on defense was Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart. We were lucky to not have any significant injuries like we did in 06-07 when Kronner and Schneider were both out of the lineup during the playoffs. The one benefit Lilja always had that some people cannot seem to grasp is that he could play a lot of PK mins. Lebda could never do much on the specialty teams.

Keeping the other team from scoring when you are short handed is kinda important.

In 2008, Lilja was third (2:53), but just barely, after Lids and Cheli (3:57/gm), Stu (2:51) and Kronner (2:24) -- regular season.

2008 playoffs, TOI S/H and per game:
Lids 80:19 -- 3:39
Stu 61:19 -- 2:55
Kron 58:52 -- 2:40
Cheli 41:01 -- 2:55
Raf 33:25 -- 1:31
Lilja 29:05 -- 2:25


--> Goes to show how incredible a pick-up Stuart was for the Wings in solidifying the top four and the PK options.

It wasn't until 2008-09 season that Lilly played more PK, alongside Lidstrom (showing that the signing of Cheli was pointless). Obviously, by the playoffs, Lilja was out with his head injury, and E was brought up to help out. (Lids x Stu top PK, Kron x E 2nd pair).

Fugu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 12:47 PM
  #106
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 29,110
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Detroit's system puck possession system and its amazing succession of two-way centers makes defenseman look better than they are.

Name the last Detroit defenseman who left Detroit and looked better at his new team.

Lilja? Nope.
Lebda? Nope.
Schneider? Nope.
Quincey? Wasn't really ever in Detroit the first time.
Anders Ericsson? Nope.
Max Kuznetsov? Nope.
Freddie Olausson? Nope.

I think the most recent defenseman who improved after leaving Detroit was Aaron Ward, who enjoyed a bigger role elsewhere.

On the other hand, there are many cases of Detroit forwards who leave the Wings and become better players.


Then technically, he was superior outside of Detroit. By far.

Fugu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 01:09 PM
  #107
Harnessed in Slums
Registered User
 
Harnessed in Slums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the Garage
Posts: 9,293
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KassiansMissingTooth View Post
this is great for my fantasy team! just traded for CC
Well he hasn't been signed just yet, but that's a good move on your part to pick him up in the event a deal gets done.

Harnessed in Slums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 01:23 PM
  #108
jroc86
Registered User
 
jroc86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 337
vCash: 500
Interesting stat re: CC last year. Only 14 giveaways ... despite Blues fans painting him into being a turnover machine that is pretty significant for a guy who played 60+ games and logged about 20 mins of ice a night.

Doesnt address our need/desire to sign a 6'3 225lb shutdown specialist dman that can pk and beat the crap out of guys but CC is a pretty adequate NHL dman who should produce around 30 points, maybe more if he can finally stay healthy for once.

jroc86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 02:33 PM
  #109
The Zetterberg Era
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 17,344
vCash: 515
Quote:
Originally Posted by KassiansMissingTooth View Post
this is great for my fantasy team! just traded for CC
I hope you have a really deep league if CC is on your roster.

The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 02:50 PM
  #110
Harnessed in Slums
Registered User
 
Harnessed in Slums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the Garage
Posts: 9,293
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
Interesting stat re: CC last year. Only 14 giveaways ... despite Blues fans painting him into being a turnover machine that is pretty significant for a guy who played 60+ games and logged about 20 mins of ice a night.

Doesnt address our need/desire to sign a 6'3 225lb shutdown specialist dman that can pk and beat the crap out of guys but CC is a pretty adequate NHL dman who should produce around 30 points, maybe more if he can finally stay healthy for once.
Good point. He keeps Kindl out of the lineup so he can't be all bad...assuming we actually sign him. Like I said, not a game changer, but addresses a need.

Harnessed in Slums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 04:20 PM
  #111
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
Interesting stat re: CC last year. Only 14 giveaways ... despite Blues fans painting him into being a turnover machine that is pretty significant for a guy who played 60+ games and logged about 20 mins of ice a night.
Giveaways are very subjective, as are takeaways. If Colaiacovo lost the puck every other time he had it, but it wasn't a "direct" turnover, he might not be charged with an "official" giveaway. It's why stats like takeaways, giveaways, hits, etc. are so unreliable. They're completely subjective, while more traditional stats like goals, assists, shots on goal, goals against, saves, save percentage, GAA, and minutes played are absolutely objective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Detroit's system puck possession system and its amazing succession of two-way centers makes defenseman look better than they are.

Name the last Detroit defenseman who left Detroit and looked better at his new team.

Lilja? Nope.
Lebda? Nope.
Schneider? Nope.
Quincey? Wasn't really ever in Detroit the first time.
Anders Ericsson? Nope.
Max Kuznetsov? Nope.
Freddie Olausson? Nope.

I think the most recent defenseman who improved after leaving Detroit was Aaron Ward, who enjoyed a bigger role elsewhere.

On the other hand, there are many cases of Detroit forwards who leave the Wings and become better players.
Lilja suffered what many thought could be a career-ending injury at the end of his time in Detroit. He is not the same player largely because of it.

Lebda was not better because of Detroit's forwards; he was better because playing with Chelios hid Lebda's significant deficiencies.

Eriksson was clearly better after leaving; he was a top-four defenseman on the 1998 Wings team (further evidence in favor of Chris Osgood's HHOF bid; they replaced a Norris contender with a rookie and repeated with Ozzie in net), but he was better in Chicago, Florida, and Columbus and played a top-four role for every team he went to except for his 38 games with Toronto, his 12 games with Phoenix, and his 4 games with the Rangers. So 54 games out of a 572-game career where he wasn't one of the team's top-four defensemen. And in Chicago he was #3, Florida he was as high as #2, and in Columbus he was as high as #2. But Eriksson is like Quincey; he didn't spend much time in Detroit - only a year and a half.

Kuznetsov broke his foot three games into his Kings tenure and missed the rest of the year, and then was suspended by the organization after he failed to report to camp the next fall. He played some and looked ok as a stay-at-home but his skating was clearly affected by his foot injury, and although he did score at a higher per-game pace than the previous season he was sent down to the Kings' AHL affiliate. He would spend the rest of his career in Russia.

Olausson was at the end of his career. How did he look before he came to Detroit compared to his arrival? He was much better as a Jet. He was a #1 defenseman in the NHL back then.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 05:20 PM
  #112
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 29,110
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Lilja suffered what many thought could be a career-ending injury at the end of his time in Detroit. He is not the same player largely because of it.
See below. Problem for Lilly though is that his best year by far was 08-09. He was comfortable in third ES pairing, and the top PK unit with Lids. Things had never gone better for him. He probably could have had another decent year as a bottom pairing guy, and mostly PK minutes but he overestimated his value, turned down the Wings $1.5+ MM offer for 2 yrs, to then only get $750K from Anaheim in October...



Quote:
Lebda was not better because of Detroit's forwards; he was better because playing with Chelios hid Lebda's significant deficiencies.
Did anyone else on the roster benefit from being paired with Chelios or Lidstrom from 2005 through 2008?

What were the pairings, on special teams and ES?

Oddly, you over look that after the Nashville series in 2008, Babs not only made a goalie switch, but tried Cheli and Lilja, didn't like it, then paired Lils x Lebda--- which actually was a very decent pairing for the rest of the playoffs.

Fans also like to forget the Wings goalie tandem through that Cup contending/winning roster. I'd gander it made 'some' impact on their fortunes.

Fugu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 05:38 PM
  #113
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
See below. Problem for Lilly though is that his best year by far was 08-09. He was comfortable in third ES pairing, and the top PK unit with Lids. Things had never gone better for him. He probably could have had another decent year as a bottom pairing guy, and mostly PK minutes but he overestimated his value, turned down the Wings $1.5+ MM offer for 2 yrs, to then only get $750K from Anaheim in October...

Did anyone else on the roster benefit from being paired with Chelios or Lidstrom from 2005 through 2008?

What were the pairings, on special teams and ES?

Oddly, you over look that after the Nashville series in 2008, Babs not only made a goalie switch, but tried Cheli and Lilja, didn't like it, then paired Lils x Lebda--- which actually was a very decent pairing for the rest of the playoffs.

Fans also like to forget the Wings goalie tandem through that Cup contending/winning roster. I'd gander it made 'some' impact on their fortunes.
Chelios had a pretty big impact on the development of Jiri Fischer, for one. A major difference though is that Fischer was actually the kind of defenseman teams want in every situation.

A major indicator of Lebda's reliance on Chelios is that as Chelly began to deteritorate, Lebda began to look worse and worse. The Lilja/Lebda pairing did well comparatively because it was during the "rise of Lilja" when he became a solid, reliable defensive force and shot blocker. Lebda is and always has been a player whose fortunes relied almost entirely on who he played with. That's why things turned out so poorly in Toronto; there was nobody to save him.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 05:45 PM
  #114
The Zetterberg Era
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 17,344
vCash: 515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Did anyone else on the roster benefit from being paired with Chelios or Lidstrom from 2005 through 2008?

What were the pairings, on special teams and ES?

Oddly, you over look that after the Nashville series in 2008, Babs not only made a goalie switch, but tried Cheli and Lilja, didn't like it, then paired Lils x Lebda--- which actually was a very decent pairing for the rest of the playoffs.

Fans also like to forget the Wings goalie tandem through that Cup contending/winning roster. I'd gander it made 'some' impact on their fortunes.


Lebda was better than people give him credit for now. He was far from spectacular, but pretty solid for his first couple years with the Wings. He wasn't the dog that he is now and who people seem to be running him down as. He is pretty bad now, but really a seven year NHL career and almost 400 NHL games from an undrafted guy is not all that bad.

As for the goalie tandem part. Osgood was fantastic in those back to back cup runs. I never expect him to get a lot of love from Wings fans, but his role in those runs cannot be argued. They don't get there without him and he might have been the best player on the team during those two runs. Could have easily taken the Conn Smythe in 08 and was absolutely going to win it in 2009 before the collapse in the back half of the Stanley Cup finals series.

The Zetterberg Era is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 06:14 PM
  #115
Heaton
Moderator
#disapointment
 
Heaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rochester, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 16,908
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Heaton
Lebda was good for many reasons:
  • He didn't cost anything
  • He was young
  • He could skate
  • He was never expected to play any special teams nor play against any real difficult offensive talent
  • Babcock had Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart to play the bulk of time so he could pick and choose when Lebda would get out of the ice, basically he was never put in any high stress situations

As soon as any expectations were put on Lebda, he crumbled. That's why it was great to see him get paid in Toronto, but it was never going to work.

Heaton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 07:45 PM
  #116
ZDH
Registered User
 
ZDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,320
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Detroit's system puck possession system and its amazing succession of two-way centers makes defenseman look better than they are.

Name the last Detroit defenseman who left Detroit and looked better at his new team.

Lilja? Nope.
Lebda? Nope.
Schneider? Nope.
Quincey? Wasn't really ever in Detroit the first time.
Anders Ericsson? Nope.
Max Kuznetsov? Nope.
Freddie Olausson? Nope.

I think the most recent defenseman who improved after leaving Detroit was Aaron Ward, who enjoyed a bigger role elsewhere.

On the other hand, there are many cases of Detroit forwards who leave the Wings and become better players.
A forward list would be interesting to see.

(not saying you are wrong, just curious)

ZDH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 07:58 PM
  #117
Harnessed in Slums
Registered User
 
Harnessed in Slums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the Garage
Posts: 9,293
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Lebda was good for many reasons:
  • He didn't cost anything
  • He was young
  • He could skate
  • He was never expected to play any special teams nor play against any real difficult offensive talent
  • Babcock had Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart to play the bulk of time so he could pick and choose when Lebda would get out of the ice, basically he was never put in any high stress situations

As soon as any expectations were put on Lebda, he crumbled. That's why it was great to see him get paid in Toronto, but it was never going to work.
This is true. Let's not forget that Lilja played far above his head in the 06-07 WCF on the top pairing. Anytime Lebda was put into the top 4 he looked gawd awful. Enough with the revisionist history already.

Harnessed in Slums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 08:34 PM
  #118
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDH View Post
A forward list would be interesting to see.

(not saying you are wrong, just curious)
Off the top of my head... Adam Oates, Adam Graves, Dallas Drake, Keith Primeau, Slava Kozlov, Sean Avery, Mikael Samuelsson, Marian Hossa.

And that's only a little over 20 years back. Imagine who else we could add? Marcel Dionne, for example?

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 08:39 PM
  #119
Heaton
Moderator
#disapointment
 
Heaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rochester, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 16,908
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Heaton
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
This is true. Let's not forget that Lilja played far above his head in the 06-07 WCF on the top pairing. Anytime Lebda was put into the top 4 he looked gawd awful. Enough with the revisionist history already.
People forget how good Lilja in 06'-'07, all they remember is the Selanne goal.

Heaton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 08:58 PM
  #120
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 24,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
People forget how good Lilja in 06'-'07, all they remember is the Selanne goal.
That's the sad thing about defensemen.

Do your job and you aren't noticed in the slightest. Mess up big once and it is on you for your career.

ArGarBarGar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 09:15 PM
  #121
P U L L H A R D
#shewenttoharvard
 
P U L L H A R D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Somalia
Posts: 23,847
vCash: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
That's the sad thing about defensemen.

Do your job and you aren't noticed in the slightest. Mess up big once and it is on you for your career.
Sad indeed, it is all I remember about Lilja as a Wing. My fury for the following hours was something to behold.

He was actually a really solid bottom pairing guy for us at the time, and even could've been a good #4 (and was when injuries/situations arose) and done what we are expecting Ericsson to do (roughly same responsibilities/duties) with the right partner.

P U L L H A R D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 09:27 PM
  #122
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
That's the sad thing about defensemen.

Do your job and you aren't noticed in the slightest. Mess up big once and it is on you for your career.
I think this idea that Lilja was really good is silly.
He was better than he normally is and made less glaring mistakes than normal.
However, in the end, he's remembered for the kind of play that defensemen get remembered for.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-25-2012, 10:15 PM
  #123
Heaton
Moderator
#disapointment
 
Heaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rochester, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 16,908
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Heaton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I think this idea that Lilja was really good is silly.
He was better than he normally is and made less glaring mistakes than normal.
However, in the end, he's remembered for the kind of play that defensemen get remembered for.
No it isn't. During that run to the Conference Finals Lilja was really good. He made one huge gaffe and will be remembered for it. Like Bill Buckner who was a really good 1st basemen remembered for only one terrible play.

Lilja was playing at Steve Duchene levels during that year. Thankfully the next year we picked up Stuart which allowed Lilja and Stuart both to play in their correct roles and continue to be serviceable.

Heaton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 12:15 AM
  #124
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
No it isn't. During that run to the Conference Finals Lilja was really good. He made one huge gaffe and will be remembered for it. Like Bill Buckner who was a really good 1st basemen remembered for only one terrible play.
Except Bill Buckner WAS a really good first basemen who was practically crippled when he made that play,

Lilja went from being an OK 3rd pairing option to be a decent stay at home defenseman.
He wasn't "really good."

Quote:
Lilja was playing at Steve Duchene levels during that year. Thankfully the next year we picked up Stuart which allowed Lilja and Stuart both to play in their correct roles and continue to be serviceable.

Lilja was OK in 06-07. He played with a bit more physical edge than normal, which he deserves credit for. But at the end of the day he scored 1 goal, had no assists, had the worst +/- on the defense, gave the puck away a lot, and had one of the worst giveaways this franchise has witnessed in 25 years.

Steve Duchense? He was a veteran offensive defenseman who startled everyone with his physical play in 02.
He managed 6 assists. He was a Plus player.

The Duke had several seasons in his career where he scored more goals than Lilja scored in his entire career.

I don't understand this comparison at all.

For whatever reason, you and Norris Nick have been trying to repair Lilja's image in Detroit.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-26-2012, 12:28 AM
  #125
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 29,110
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
This is true. Let's not forget that Lilja played far above his head in the 06-07 WCF on the top pairing. Anytime Lebda was put into the top 4 he looked gawd awful. Enough with the revisionist history already.
Maybe because he wasn't a top four defenseman? Are you moving the goal posts here in order to make your revisionism claim stick? Who said he belonged in the top four? He was very good as a BOTTOM pairing defenseman on a very defensively solid Wings Cup contending/winning team. It should also be noted that that team had no trouble scoring either, with a goal differential of about 1 or better around that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
No it isn't. During that run to the Conference Finals Lilja was really good. He made one huge gaffe and will be remembered for it. Like Bill Buckner who was a really good 1st basemen remembered for only one terrible play.

Lilja was playing at Steve Duchene levels during that year. Thankfully the next year we picked up Stuart which allowed Lilja and Stuart both to play in their correct roles and continue to be serviceable.

You don't see this as you kinda/sorta contradicting yourself? On the one had, you defend Lilly's days as a 4/5-ish defenseman (because he played quite a bit with Nick when he first got here, iirc). The team was never really comfortable with him there, signing Markov at first, then trading for Stuart when they failed to sign him (or anyone like him) over the previous UFA season. Chelios and Lidstrom were still the top PK'ers heading into the playoffs. It was Stu that mainly picked up the ice time that Chelios started losing as he aged in 2008. In 2009, while the team was still an offensive juggernaut, Lil's was put on the PK with Lidstrom. Well, if eva is going to claim that Lebda's game was helped by Chelios, I'm going to suggest that maybe Lilja benefited just a wee bit from playing with the greatest defenseman to ever lace them up-- after Orr of course.

Fugu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:52 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.