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Linden feels the NHLPA was INSULTED,feels the season is over

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01-21-2005, 12:54 PM
  #26
nyr7andcounting
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A couple hundred thousand is a bad salary? No it's not. If that's what they have to make for a year or two in order to not get backed into a corner by the NHL, than so be it

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01-21-2005, 12:54 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanderson
Yeah, and you can reduce that number to less than 100,000-200,000 for basically everyone else, except guys like Jagr, Thornton or Nash.
That's right. It's insane go play in Europe for $300,000 but don't accept a cap in make 1.3M avg.

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01-21-2005, 12:56 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregStack
The players shouldn't tell the owners how to run their business, yes that's true. But then again, why should the players help the idiot owners run their business?

If they're in a business, treat it like one. All businesses have rivals, and all must compete (at top dollar) for employees, they have to run their business under budgets, but when they run out of money, or consistently lose money, the standard approach is to close show, and either move somewhere more profitable, or quit altogether.

But the NHL can't do that, apparently you have to be guaranteed a profit...how many other businesses are guaranteed to earn money year in and year out?
While I agree with some of what you say, you do avoid one key element of the discussion of hockey teams as a business. Unlike the real business world, professional sports teams rely on the health of their "rivals" for their own success. If Target and Meijer disappear tomorrow, it's great news for Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart doesn't rely on the existence of those stores for its success. Not so in the NHL. If several NHL teams "close show" or quit altogether, it's bad for the league and therefore bad for every member of the league. Fewer teams, or failing teams, typically equals less profit for everyone.
As a result, it's in the league's interest, and every individual team's interest, that their fellow members remain viable, healthy units. Teams want to beat their rivals on the ice, but hope for their success off it.

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01-21-2005, 12:58 PM
  #29
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Im not even disappointed here, a deal would have been nice, but this all was to be expected since the last couple of years. Go Raptors.

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01-21-2005, 12:59 PM
  #30
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Trevor Linden was "insulted" by what the League had to tell him...

My god, what next.....

This is the exact reason that having players in the board room is not a good idea.

We're dealing with a group of guys that live and die through how they channel their emotions and in a business environment, when negotiating a deal....the last thing you should bring into the process is emotions. There simply isn't room for it.

Irregardless of who you want to see get what, this is a distinct advantage that the owners have in striking the right deal for themselves because they have the experience and background to approach the negotiations with the right frame of mind.

On the other hand, the PA and specifically Goodenow gain their advantage because he can simply pull at the players emotional mind set in order to steer them in what ever direction he sees fit.

IMO what is missing from this whole soap opera is some rational thinking and communication within the union...not because the owners are right but because I can't see how decisions within the union can be made while the players are hung up on being "insulted".....

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01-21-2005, 01:00 PM
  #31
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This quote from Devellano made me yell at my computer screen in frustration -

"The season's done," Red Wings senior vice president Jimmy Devellano told the Detroit Free Press. "There's no chance that the right deal can remotely be done in the next little while. There's too much work to be done. There's too many I's to dot and T's to cross. You are not going to get this collective bargaining agreement done in two days, three days, one week or two weeks. It's over."

Uh, how much time did you have to do this? Both parties just sat around on their ***** for MONTHS doing nothing. If they would have spent the energy they spent bashing each other in the press on actually NEGOTIATING, maybe we wouldn't be in the spot we are in today.

Classless idiots. All of them. And all the while, we the fans are screwed out of watching the game we love and thousands of employees of these teams are out of a job because of greed.

**** you, NHL and NHLPA. Rot in hell.

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01-21-2005, 01:02 PM
  #32
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So This Was Just Another Publicity Stunt By Nhlpa Afterall.the Nhl
Didn"t Throw Any Shots-just Said There Was A Difference Of Philosophy.
Actually They Were Nice About It And Thanked Linden For Starting The
Talks.

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01-21-2005, 01:03 PM
  #33
CarlRacki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr7andcounting
A couple hundred thousand is a bad salary? No it's not. If that's what they have to make for a year or two in order to not get backed into a corner by the NHL, than so be it

Says the guy not counting on an NHL paycheck to take care of himself and his family for the next 40 years.
What some don't seem to understand is that for most, NHL careers are relatively short and the money these guys make in the league more or less must provide for them and their families for the rest of their lives. Very few NHL players are going to go on and get significant earnings in other careers. A few will be lucky to get a broadcasting gig and a few more will get good-paying jobs in management. But we're talking maybe 5-10 percent of all players there. Most live off investments they've made with their NHL money. Doing so will be much, much harder when you're suddenly earning a fifth to a tenth of your former salary.

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01-21-2005, 01:03 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr7andcounting
A couple hundred thousand is a bad salary? No it's not. If that's what they have to make for a year or two in order to not get backed into a corner by the NHL, than so be it
Tell me what why won't the players accept a cap? What is so bad about a cap? The players will still make a ton of money and will still have garanteed contract. I don't understand. It's not like they salaries will go from 1.8M to $555.000.

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01-21-2005, 01:03 PM
  #35
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"We want the right deal," Devellano said. "The hockey's not important. ... "My hope and wish is (these talks) start us toward a deal for next season."

Thats sums it up right there. "The hockey's not important"

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01-21-2005, 01:05 PM
  #36
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Screw both sides involved in this mess.

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01-21-2005, 01:05 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTSENS
Tell me what why won't the players accept a cap? What is so bad about a cap? The players will still make a ton of money and will still have garanteed contract. I don't understand. It's not like they salaries will go from 1.8M to $555.000.

Exactly, what's the danger of having a salary cap, in reverse, the danger of not having a cap and continuing donw this road we've been on, is disaster...

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01-21-2005, 01:06 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregStack
The players shouldn't tell the owners how to run their business, yes that's true. But then again, why should the players help the idiot owners run their business?

If they're in a business, treat it like one. All businesses have rivals, and all must compete (at top dollar) for employees, they have to run their business under budgets, but when they run out of money, or consistently lose money, the standard approach is to close show, and either move somewhere more profitable, or quit altogether.

But the NHL can't do that, apparently you have to be guaranteed a profit...how many other businesses are guaranteed to earn money year in and year out?
The major flaw in this argument is that the NHL isn't like a normal free market business. Coke would like nothing more than to drive Pepsi out of business and increase their market share. In the NHL, the Rangers are competing with the Panthers and want to beat them, but they also need the Panthers to be viable to strengthen themselves. That dynamic isn't in the business world, and the NHL can't run it's self like a normal business

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01-21-2005, 01:07 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I in the Eye
I think hearing it hurt Linden's feelings... But isn't this what the players want - to simply be employees (not partners)? Don't the players simply want to be paid and not worry about the business-side of things (i.e. like an employee)?

Wasn't this the basic argument for maintaining the current system? We simply ask that you owners pay us what the market determines (like an employee) - we don't want to be involved or tied to your business operations (like a partner)...

I'd be happy if I was the NHLPA and I heard this from the NHL... not upset...

Bettman has said a thousand times he wants the players to be partners with the owners, yet they dont like the NHLPA telling them how to run their business. Comes off rather hypocritical dont you think?

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01-21-2005, 01:08 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
NHL still not willing to compromise. Bye season.
the nhl has said that once the players agree in principle to a salary cap that everything else is negotiable including the level set for the cap. there is a lot of comprimise in that. are you saying the only thing you expect the owners to comprimise on is the one thing they say they need?

by the way...have the players been willing to comprimise at all on their stand against any kind of salary cap? no...why did you leave that out?

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01-21-2005, 01:09 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWI19
Bettman has said a thousand times he wants the players to be partners with the owners, yet they dont like the NHLPA telling them how to run their business. Comes off rather hypocritical dont you think?
Being partners, dosen't mean handing ove the keys to the car...

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01-21-2005, 01:10 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregStack
Kovalchuck is making $3,000,000 in Russia...
That's one player (out of 700) and it's less than half his earning potential in even a capped NHL. Plus, it's questionable whether the team can continue to bear that cost. Certainly the RSL market can't. If it could, it already would be doing so.

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01-21-2005, 01:10 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr7andcounting
A couple hundred thousand is a bad salary? No it's not. If that's what they have to make for a year or two in order to not get backed into a corner by the NHL, than so be it
out of that amount,they have to pay their insurance and agent too.

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01-21-2005, 01:11 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWI19
Bettman has said a thousand times he wants the players to be partners with the owners, yet they dont like the NHLPA telling them how to run their business. Comes off rather hypocritical dont you think?
They both come off rather hypocritical... IMO, they both want to go to the weddings and skip the funerals...

We fans are the ones who should feel 'insulted'... Their bull**** speaks louder than their words...

Edit: But to be fair to the owners, the players aren't partners yet... If they agree to be partners, then they they are in a position to say how to run the business...


Last edited by I in the Eye: 01-21-2005 at 01:26 PM.
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01-21-2005, 01:11 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Says the guy not counting on an NHL paycheck to take care of himself and his family for the next 40 years.
What some don't seem to understand is that for most, NHL careers are relatively short and the money these guys make in the league more or less must provide for them and their families for the rest of their lives. Very few NHL players are going to go on and get significant earnings in other careers. A few will be lucky to get a broadcasting gig and a few more will get good-paying jobs in management. But we're talking maybe 5-10 percent of all players there. Most live off investments they've made with their NHL money. Doing so will be much, much harder when you're suddenly earning a fifth to a tenth of your former salary.
That to me is part of the problem. I have to work for 30 years before I retire. There is no reason a hockey player can't find meaningful work after he retires. Perhaps putting more emphasis on education before beginning their career could help smooth the transition to the real workforce. At the age of 16 or 17, these people put their eggs into the hockey basket without thinking about the future. It's unreasonable.

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01-21-2005, 01:12 PM
  #46
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I will tell you why the players wont accept a cap. And you can either find it stupid or sensible. But there is absolutely NO trust between the players and owners, NONE at all. If a salary cap was implemented i believe the players think the owners will find ways to screw the players over big time just like they used to do back in the very old days, maybe not exactly the same cause its a new period of time but you know what im getting at. If you look at past NHL owners and management, you know there have been many crooks among them, and I think the players are scared to tie revenues and salaries because they dont trust the owners will be fair at all with their numbers. And I mean if you look at past history with the Kings old owner and the Leafs old owner and there was JUST a recent report on how Jeremey Jacobs tried to scam and save some money but in the end got caught and had to end up paying it. I mean would you really put your salaries in in complete control of these guys? If you step back and take a look at it I can see the players point of view and I can see the owners point of view as well. But since everyone is knocking the players a lot more people dont take the time to look at it from their perspective. You can still disagree with the players all you want, but can you honestly not even just a little bit see their point?

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Old
01-21-2005, 01:15 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTTSENS
The players are willing to go play in Europe for almost nothing, but their are not willing to play in the NHL with a cap system and make 1.3 millions on average. Man they should give their collective heads a shake!!!!!

I can't begin to understand why Goodenow would have let guys go to Europe when it only proved to the owners that the players would be willing to play hockey for a he!! of a lot less money than they're now being paid.

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01-21-2005, 01:15 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz
I will tell you why the players wont accept a cap. And you can either find it stupid or sensible. But there is absolutely NO trust between the players and owners, NONE at all. If a salary cap was implemented i believe the players think the owners will find ways to screw the players over big time just like they used to do back in the very old days, maybe not exactly the same cause its a new period of time but you know what im getting at. If you look at past NHL owners and management, you know there have been many crooks among them, and I think the players are scared to tie revenues and salaries because they dont trust the owners will be fair at all with their numbers. And I mean if you look at past history with the Kings old owner and the Leafs old owner and there was JUST a recent report on how Jeremey Jacobs tried to scam and save some money but in the end got caught and had to end up paying it. I mean would you really put your salaries in in complete control of these guys? If you step back and take a look at it I can see the players point of view and I can see the owners point of view as well. But since everyone is knocking the players a lot more people dont take the time to look at it from their perspective. You can still disagree with the players all you want, but can you honestly not even just a little bit see their point?
This is ridiculous. The players they don't have to trust the owners. The manner by which revenues are determined can be negotiated like anything else. They do it in thr NFL and they do it in the NBA.

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01-21-2005, 01:16 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz
"We want the right deal," Devellano said. "The hockey's not important. ... "My hope and wish is (these talks) start us toward a deal for next season."

Thats sums it up right there. "The hockey's not important"

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!! If its not important, than lets just end this now. Shut down the NHL for good.

These people are very smart and very wealthy. Not all of them got to where they are by blind luck. They must know that if they lose the entire season AND this thing moves into next season, their 2.1B pie will shrink by leaps and bounds.

Will fans come back when/if they return and agree if a season is lost? Sure...there is always the die hards. But even some of the die hards won't come back right away or be fully dedicated like seasons past.

These guys will get something done. If they don't, they should all be fired!!!!!

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01-21-2005, 01:18 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz
I will tell you why the players wont accept a cap. And you can either find it stupid or sensible. But there is absolutely NO trust between the players and owners, NONE at all. If a salary cap was implemented i believe the players think the owners will find ways to screw the players over big time just like they used to do back in the very old days, maybe not exactly the same cause its a new period of time but you know what im getting at. If you look at past NHL owners and management, you know there have been many crooks among them, and I think the players are scared to tie revenues and salaries because they dont trust the owners will be fair at all with their numbers. And I mean if you look at past history with the Kings old owner and the Leafs old owner and there was JUST a recent report on how Jeremey Jacobs tried to scam and save some money but in the end got caught and had to end up paying it. I mean would you really put your salaries in in complete control of these guys? If you step back and take a look at it I can see the players point of view and I can see the owners point of view as well. But since everyone is knocking the players a lot more people dont take the time to look at it from their perspective. You can still disagree with the players all you want, but can you honestly not even just a little bit see their point?

excuses all of them. Trust in the owners is not relevant. They only need to trust one person and that's the firm doing the independent audit of the numbers to establish the money levels that the percentages give. the whole trust thing is completely a smokescreen and a poor one at that. What's the real reason why a cap is so terrible? Unlike the NHL which has indeed spelled out it's reasons (agree or disagree) the NHLPA has not done so which shows a weak position by the NHLPA.

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