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Linden feels the NHLPA was INSULTED,feels the season is over

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Old
01-21-2005, 01:19 PM
  #51
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I know alot won't agree with me on this,but the NHL is the fricken boss!What they say should go.The league is the NHL.And the players that feel the funds are more important than the game itself can flock off to Europe!

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01-21-2005, 01:19 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loudi94
That to me is part of the problem. I have to work for 30 years before I retire. There is no reason a hockey player can't find meaningful work after he retires. Perhaps putting more emphasis on education before beginning their career could help smooth the transition to the real workforce. At the age of 16 or 17, these people put their eggs into the hockey basket without thinking about the future. It's unreasonable.
THe players always say that they shouldn't be held responsible for the owners mistakes, then why should the owners be held responsible for the players wanting to secure they're futures (cause that's really the reason why they don't want to accept a cap, they want maximum earning no matter what state the league is in) because they can't find work to pay their expensive bills after they retire

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01-21-2005, 01:22 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz
I will tell you why the players wont accept a cap. And you can either find it stupid or sensible. But there is absolutely NO trust between the players and owners, NONE at all. If a salary cap was implemented i believe the players think the owners will find ways to screw the players over big time just like they used to do back in the very old days, maybe not exactly the same cause its a new period of time but you know what im getting at. If you look at past NHL owners and management, you know there have been many crooks among them, and I think the players are scared to tie revenues and salaries because they dont trust the owners will be fair at all with their numbers. And I mean if you look at past history with the Kings old owner and the Leafs old owner and there was JUST a recent report on how Jeremey Jacobs tried to scam and save some money but in the end got caught and had to end up paying it. I mean would you really put your salaries in in complete control of these guys? If you step back and take a look at it I can see the players point of view and I can see the owners point of view as well. But since everyone is knocking the players a lot more people dont take the time to look at it from their perspective. You can still disagree with the players all you want, but can you honestly not even just a little bit see their point?
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isin't that the reason why the players have agents, and why the NHLPA exist, and why Goodenow is head of the PA? Aren't they paying him to be careful of crusty owners?

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01-21-2005, 01:24 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tantalum
It's always NHL won't negotiate or NHLPA won't negotiate. Both sides will negotiate considerably on the more minor points of a CBA. Both sides are willing to negotiate the parameters of THEIR framework (luxury tax or linkage).

NEITHER side is willing to negotiate the other camps framework because they are a fundamental difference in system. In the end it's the side in the drivers seat that gets to dicate the system. In this case it is the owners no matter if you believe Forbes, Levitt or someone else.

Too me the union sound bites sound a bit desparate today. They sound like they are trying to scare the NHL owners. I don't think it's going to work. In actuality the desperation on the part of the union seems to reflect that Hotchkiss and company scared the NHLPA be confirming the seriousness of their resolve.

So the players can pi$$ away the season if they like. They can go play in Europe for no money in system that have payrolls at a fraction of what the owners were offering. Maybe then it will dawn on them they should have perhaps settled.
Here's a surprise: despite being one who believes that too many fans have lazily and without much thought simply parroted the lines of ownership from Day One, I actually agree with your assessment here.

With one exception. It's a bit cynical (to be kind ) to simply suggest that the players are "pissing away" the season, and rip them for playing elsewhere for a fraction of the owners were offering. In fact, the latter might be viewed as an act of principle, a trait that is lacking among many people today.

Of course, the negative, player-hating nay-bobs among us will disagree (present company excluded), but I'm offering up one opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arnie
This is ridiculous. The players they don't have to trust the owners. The manner by which revenues are determined can be negotiated like anything else. They do it in thr NFL and they do it in the NBA.
And, again, as one who is trying to look at this thing objectively (as opposed to "demanding as a fan!" that the players or owners give in ), you raise a very valid point that has stupified me from the beginning. I'm afraid (though not certain) that Goodenow can't agree on the revenue numbers because he doesn't want to acknowledge the truth. As in: the disproportionate % of revenue that goes toward payrolls.


Last edited by Trottier: 01-21-2005 at 01:32 PM.
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01-21-2005, 01:26 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Says the guy not counting on an NHL paycheck to take care of himself and his family for the next 40 years.
What some don't seem to understand is that for most, NHL careers are relatively short and the money these guys make in the league more or less must provide for them and their families for the rest of their lives. Very few NHL players are going to go on and get significant earnings in other careers. A few will be lucky to get a broadcasting gig and a few more will get good-paying jobs in management. But we're talking maybe 5-10 percent of all players there. Most live off investments they've made with their NHL money. Doing so will be much, much harder when you're suddenly earning a fifth to a tenth of your former salary.
You don't have a God-given right to be able to make enough to support yourself for life just because you possessed a superlative talent at something for a few years early in your life.

What, we're supposed to boo-hoo-hoo because someone can no longer work ten years, retire in their mid-30s and never have to work again?

Pro athletes played their sports while they could then grew up and went into the real world for decades, up until a few years ago in hockey, a little longer ago in the other sports. There's no reason they can't do it again.

Get over yourselves.

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01-21-2005, 01:26 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
THe players always say that they shouldn't be held responsible for the owners mistakes, then why should the owners be held responsible for the players wanting to secure they're futures (cause that's really the reason why they don't want to accept a cap, they want maximum earning no matter what state the league is in) because they can't find work to pay their expensive bills after they retire

I remember watching a little profile on Shaun Van Allen. He lives no different than someone who makes 40-50 thousand a year. He is planning for his future when he won't be earning the big $$$. No reason for any hockey player to cry poor after earning the kind of money being thrown around. It will take me 15 years to make the league annual average salary that's being proposed.

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01-21-2005, 01:30 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Here's a surprise: despite being one who believes that too many fans have lazily and without much thought simply parroted the lines of ownership from Day One, I actually agree with your assessment here.

With one exception. It's a bit cynical (to be kind ) to simply suggest that the players are "pissing away" the season, and rip them for playing elsewhere for a fraction of the owners were offering. In fact, the latter might be viewed as an act of principle, a trait that is lacking today among many people today.

Of course, the negative, player-hating nay-bobs among us will disagree (present company excluded), but I'm offering up one opinion.
Big difference though...

This can't be viewed as an act of principle by the players simply because they have no alternative, they have no leverage, they can't win this battle...if the players had decided to accept a cap, but then refused to sign a deal because of the cap figures or because of other CBA related items, then that would be an act of principle, but not accepting a cap 1st and foremost, is an act of defiance, at least IMO

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01-21-2005, 01:31 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Here's a surprise: despite being one who believes that too many fans have lazily and without much thought simply parroted the lines of ownership from Day One, I actually agree with your assessment here.

With one exception. It's a bit cynical (to be kind ) to simply suggest that the players are "pissing away" the season, and rip them for playing elsewhere for a fraction of the owners were offering. In fact, the latter might be viewed as an act of principle, a trait that is lacking today among many people today.

Of course, the negative, player-hating nay-bobs among us will disagree (present company excluded), but I'm offering up one opinion.
That's a hell of a principle to protect. Especially given this unions history of throwing the young guys under the bus the first chance they get. It may be principle sure but how much do you give up for your principles? Is it really a principle when you are willing to displace other players for a fraction of what you could make? Principle is a great thing but it sure is hard to live up to those principles and quite frankly in the actions of various NHLPA members they are doing a lousy job of it.

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01-21-2005, 01:32 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greschner4
You don't have a God-given right to be able to make enough to support yourself for life just because you possessed a superlative talent at something for a few years early in your life.

What, we're supposed to boo-hoo-hoo because someone can no longer work ten years, retire in their mid-30s and never have to work again?

Pro athletes played their sports while they could then grew up and went into the real world for decades, up until a few years ago in hockey, a little longer ago in the other sports. There's no reason they can't do it again.

Get over yourselves.
You misunderstood my point.
What I'm saying is the players are foolish to foregoe a reduced NHL playcheck under a cap based on "principle" - a misguided principle at that. To go to Europe and earn pennies on the dollar what you'd earn in the NHL because you don't like Gary Bettman or the owners is at best poor judgment and, realistically, utter stupidity.

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01-21-2005, 01:34 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tantalum
That's a hell of a principle to protect. Especially given this unions history of throwing the young guys under the bus the first chance they get. It may be principle sure but how much do you give up for your principles? Is it really a principle when you are willing to displace other players for a fraction of what you could make? Principle is a great thing but it sure is hard to live up to those principles and quite frankly in the actions of various NHLPA members they are doing a lousy job of it.
Two quick points:
First, principle won't put food on the table, won't pay a mortgage, won't make a car payment, won't put your kids through college and won't care for you when your 75.
Second, it's a greatly misguided principle. Even with the owners' last cap proposal, the players would remain fabulously well-compensated. They would earn, on average, almost 10 times what most are getting in Europe right now. The players, in essence, are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

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01-21-2005, 01:35 PM
  #61
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Both you and 417 provide a reasonable opposing view to mine.

Trust me, I'm not putting the players on a pedestal for playing for a fraction of their normal salaries this year. Just pointing out that it's not as simple as some make it seem. Sure, they could accept the league's proposal and immediately make much more $$$. But that ignores the bigger picture.

Again, just putting both sides of the issue out there, without strong endorsement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlRacki
What I'm saying is the players are foolish to foregoe a reduced NHL playcheck under a cap based on "principle" - a misguided principle at that. To go to Europe and earn pennies on the dollar what you'd earn in the NHL because you don't like Gary Bettman or the owners is at best poor judgment and, realistically, utter stupidity.
What you are doing is telling someone how much money they should make (settle for). You're right to do so, totally, but it's anathema to those of us who believe in freedom, including the right to pursue one's ultimate earning power. Just curious how you would react if someone told you "you are stupid for not settling for minimum wage." Of course, players are making an infinite amount more than that, and much more than anyone here is making. But that is not the point. Economic freedom - the right to earn and bargain for one's pay - applies to EVERYONE, regardless of economic class. Just because you are wealthy does not mean you give up that right. (And PS, no one here presumes that "bargaining for it", guarantees that you will get it. But the union has every right to do so, despite the class-envy critics who call them stupid.)


Last edited by Trottier: 01-21-2005 at 01:53 PM.
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01-21-2005, 01:36 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isin't that the reason why the players have agents, and why the NHLPA exist, and why Goodenow is head of the PA? Aren't they paying him to be careful of crusty owners?

Yes, and that was my reasoning why there isnt a deal right now, because there is NO trust between the two sides.

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01-21-2005, 01:36 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Two quick points:
First, principle won't put food on the table, won't pay a mortgage, won't make a car payment, won't put your kids through college and won't care for you when your 75.
Second, it's a greatly misguided principle. Even with the owners' last cap proposal, the players would remain fabulously well-compensated. They would earn, on average, almost 10 times what most are getting in Europe right now. The players, in essence, are cutting off their nose to spite their face.
umm. I agree with you. Think you replied to the wrong post.

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01-21-2005, 01:46 PM
  #64
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The whole PA knows that this 10 year gravy train ride is over. Hey, I wouldn't like it but that's life. They have been spoiled the last 10 years with an inflationary system and some idiotic owners moves. See you guys in 2006.

 
Old
01-21-2005, 01:47 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz
Yes, and that was my reasoning why there isnt a deal right now, because there is NO trust between the two sides.
You just pulled a NHLPA, and ran circles around my question in attempts to confuse me, and like the owners, it's not working...

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01-21-2005, 01:48 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz
I will tell you why the players wont accept a cap. And you can either find it stupid or sensible. But there is absolutely NO trust between the players and owners, NONE at all. If a salary cap was implemented i believe the players think the owners will find ways to screw the players over big time just like they used to do back in the very old days, maybe not exactly the same cause its a new period of time but you know what im getting at. If you look at past NHL owners and management, you know there have been many crooks among them, and I think the players are scared to tie revenues and salaries because they dont trust the owners will be fair at all with their numbers. And I mean if you look at past history with the Kings old owner and the Leafs old owner and there was JUST a recent report on how Jeremey Jacobs tried to scam and save some money but in the end got caught and had to end up paying it. I mean would you really put your salaries in in complete control of these guys? If you step back and take a look at it I can see the players point of view and I can see the owners point of view as well. But since everyone is knocking the players a lot more people dont take the time to look at it from their perspective. You can still disagree with the players all you want, but can you honestly not even just a little bit see their point?
This to is a smokescreen, though I don't disagree that the players don't trust the owners.

It's a smokescreen because there are ways to negotiate around this to take "trust" out of the equation. The NBA and NFL players don't trust the owners, either, but they have salary caps. But the NHL players won't agree in concept to a cap so we don't even get there.

Writing down what "revenues" are, and appointing a 3-person team to finalize the number, 2 of which are picked by the NHLPA would take the issue of "trust" right off the table. Do you have any reason to believe the players would take a cap if that mechanism were offered to them? I certainly don't.

Have you heard any

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01-21-2005, 01:53 PM
  #67
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exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
Trevor Linden was "insulted" by what the League had to tell him...

My god, what next.....

This is the exact reason that having players in the board room is not a good idea.

We're dealing with a group of guys that live and die through how they channel their emotions and in a business environment, when negotiating a deal....the last thing you should bring into the process is emotions. There simply isn't room for it.

Irregardless of who you want to see get what, this is a distinct advantage that the owners have in striking the right deal for themselves because they have the experience and background to approach the negotiations with the right frame of mind.

On the other hand, the PA and specifically Goodenow gain their advantage because he can simply pull at the players emotional mind set in order to steer them in what ever direction he sees fit.

IMO what is missing from this whole soap opera is some rational thinking and communication within the union...not because the owners are right but because I can't see how decisions within the union can be made while the players are hung up on being "insulted".....
I agree 100%

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01-21-2005, 01:54 PM
  #68
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Part of this is the league getting control back. The NHL is an example of inmates running the asylum. I remember the NHL went through with reducing the pad and equipment sizes of the goalies to improve scoring. What did the PA do? They filed an appeal and stopped any changes the nhl tried to make. Its things like that which tick off the NHL. They aren't going to think of the game. It's about their wallets.

It's hard but you cannot get too attached to it. They are like any other human being. They are looking out for themselves. The only differnce is that they live in a whole different financial world than we do.

 
Old
01-21-2005, 01:56 PM
  #69
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******* the NHLPA! I absolutely loathe what they are doing to thousands and thousands of fans, not to mention people's LIVELYHOOD that depend on NHL hockey.

Whats wrong with having a cap for crying out loud!! Whats wrong with a guaranteed average salary of 1.3 million?!!

Greedy, greedy SOBS!

BRING ON THE REPLACEMENTS!!!

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01-21-2005, 01:59 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Says the guy not counting on an NHL paycheck to take care of himself and his family for the next 40 years.
What some don't seem to understand is that for most, NHL careers are relatively short and the money these guys make in the league more or less must provide for them and their families for the rest of their lives. Very few NHL players are going to go on and get significant earnings in other careers. A few will be lucky to get a broadcasting gig and a few more will get good-paying jobs in management. But we're talking maybe 5-10 percent of all players there. Most live off investments they've made with their NHL money. Doing so will be much, much harder when you're suddenly earning a fifth to a tenth of your former salary.
What most people don't understand is that NHL players, while their career is short, still make many times mroe than an average Joe will in his ENTIRE career. If a hockey players even makes the minumums alary and invests, saves, and spends his money well, then he is well off. An NHL player can just live off interest the rest of his life. They won't have to do anything if they don't want to.

 
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01-21-2005, 02:01 PM
  #71
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The players are being controlled by an oligarchy...Goodenow, Saskins, and a handful of delusional players. It's a very small group now who believe this "no salary cap" idea is viable.

The best thing that could happen is an anonymous vote taken by the players. I think you'd see 80% of the players voting for a cap right now.

This is what happens when people with bad ideas control a large group of people. The rank and file are afraid to speak because of the repercussions that will come from the group. So they remain silent as these bad ideas get pushed on them against their will.

It's just a question of how bad things will get now.

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01-21-2005, 02:03 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayItAgain
******* the NHLPA! I absolutely loathe what they are doing to thousands and thousands of fans, not to mention people's LIVELYHOOD that depend on NHL hockey.

Whats wrong with having a cap for crying out loud!! Whats wrong with a guaranteed average salary of 1.3 million?!!

Greedy, greedy SOBS!

BRING ON THE REPLACEMENTS!!!
Yeh those poor poor billionare owners. BTW, replacement hockey has been on all season.. Its called the AHL, ECHL and many beer leagues
around the country. Have fun with that when they start charging NHL prices to see those players.

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01-21-2005, 02:04 PM
  #73
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John Davidson says "It's over" unless the NHL gets off the hard cap

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/artic...21_130156_1228

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01-21-2005, 02:06 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnGalt
The players are being controlled by an oligarchy...Goodenow, Saskins, and a handful of delusional players. It's a very small group now who believe this "no salary cap" idea is viable.

The best thing that could happen is an anonymous vote taken by the players. I think you'd see 80% of the players voting for a cap right now.

This is what happens when people with bad ideas control a large group of people. The rank and file are afraid to speak because of the repercussions that will come from the group. So they remain silent as these bad ideas get pushed on them against their will.

It's just a question of how bad things will get now.
Don't let Tie Dumi hear you say that?

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01-21-2005, 02:09 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey_Nut99
The whole PA knows that this 10 year gravy train ride is over. Hey, I wouldn't like it but that's life. They have been spoiled the last 10 years with an inflationary system and some idiotic owners moves. See you guys in 2006.
Have you heard some of the players discuss this situation?Kevyn Adams of the Canes takes the cake.This joker acts like he is relevent.When this bum is done,the NHL will still be around.I have heard him twice on the radio and he acts like his crap doesn't stink.He is willing to sit forever than play under a cap.He did once before when he was drafted

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