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Linden feels the NHLPA was INSULTED,feels the season is over

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Old
01-21-2005, 02:40 PM
  #101
Hockey_Nut99
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Originally Posted by Chayos1
Well since it is a proven fact that the players got the league into these straights then they should just man up and tyake the cap. you PA cronies just make me laugh with the stupidity of your posts. go live in the real world for a while and see how insulted you would be with $1.3 million dollar salary. The problem you don't seem to understand is that if a business owner is losing money he closes the business or lays off his workers but these players expect that if pitts buff and edm go broke who cares we got our money. What kind of msg does that send to the ownership side.


It is a proven fact if the owners are making money the league is healthy and the money will continue to flow to the players. What i don't understand is why the players don't negotiate a deal that is a hard cap with a percentage of revenue going to them, that way if the league starts making more money then they get their piece of the pie.
Because they don't give a Sh** about anyone but themsleves. They don't care about small market teams or some younger players never getting to play again. As long as they get theirs.

 
Old
01-21-2005, 02:44 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Hockeyfan02
Why do people even pick sides anymore? Neither one is trying to find a solution and get hockey back on the ice. There is a solution/middle ground to be found but each side wants it their way like 5 year olds. This sucks.

Very true... There are points to be made and accepted by each side. But at this point, its getting very old and tiresome.

The only reason there is money to be made in sports is because of the fans. Tickets are paid for by the fans. Merchandise is paid for by the fans. Granted, advertising is paid for by the advertiser, but its in the hopes that all the watching FANS will see that ad and say, lets pickup a case of Bud or lets stop by the Ford dealership on the way home, check out the new Mustangs......

EVERYTHING leads back to the fans that are there or watching on TV. Yet there is no talk from any of them about the importance of the fan base and how the fanbase will be rewarded/screwed based upon a CBA agreement.

Understand, I realize that hockey and all other sports when it comes down to it are businesses. But their only businesses because you have people willing to buy your product. And right now, those buyers are getting very frustrated and looking for another product!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree their all starting to act like 5 year olds throwing tantrums.

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01-21-2005, 02:46 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Trottier
OK, consensus reached!

I fully understand that your opinion, or anyone else's opinion on the "intelligence" of either side in this matter, is one to which we are entitled.

Where I take offense is with some who simply declare that the players should "take it or leave it". Indeed, the players may be leading themselves into a deep hole here, only time will tell. But there is a difference between believing that they are misguided (and stating as much here, as you and other have done), and smugly demanding that "they immediately accept this offer!" and bow to management's demands. (And, I'm sure you've read a lot of those type of posts here; I have.)

The players have every right not to, even if that decision is wrong.
Again I'm not saying they bow to the demands. I'm saying they would be wise IMO to bow to the system and negotiate the hell out of Bettman to try to create as many loopholes, exceptions, increased free agency as possible. But refusing to negotiate within the framework the owners want given they are in the drivers seat is a mistake IMO. That is the only thing they have to "cave" on in this negotiation.

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01-21-2005, 02:54 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Trottier
Sooooo easy to run other's lives, isn't it? Soooo easy to tell someone else what to accept, put limitations on their earning power and how to spend/save their money.

"The Average Joe's" career earnings have nothing to do with an NHL player. But then again, some here are actually looking forward to watching the Average Joe masquarade on NHL rinks next fall , so go figure....

Professionally/economically speaking (only), we are not all born equal. Some attain higher monetary levels than others. Much higher. That does not mean that those people should settle for what anyone (especially fans with acute petty cla$$ envy) wishes to impose on them. No "masters" here, in case anyone forgot.

The players will continue to negotiate, as is their right, and ultimately strike a deal. It could be a "fair and equitable" one, or it could be one in which they lose a lot, as some fans smugly and assuredly guarantee.
you know just because someone doesnt agree with the players position doesnt mean its because they are suffering from class envy.

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01-21-2005, 02:56 PM
  #105
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The owners should be content with losing money :lol

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01-21-2005, 02:58 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tantalum
Again I'm not saying they bow to the demands. I'm saying they would be wise IMO to bow to the system and negotiate the hell out of Bettman to try to create as many loopholes, exceptions, increased free agency as possible. But refusing to negotiate within the framework the owners want given they are in the drivers seat is a mistake IMO. That is the only thing they have to "cave" on in this negotiation.
I understand Tantalum. Based on what we "know" (what is reported), it should be pretty clear now that the "rosetta stone" of these negotiations is a hardcap.

Mixing metaphors, that is the nut that has to be cracked, someway, somehow.

And it is no small, nor obvious, point. From either side's perspective. Understandably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by txomisc
you know just because someone doesnt agree with the players position doesnt mean its because they are suffering from class envy.
Of course not, I agree 100%. I will, however, respectfully ask you to read some of the specific remarks here and conclude otherwise.

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01-21-2005, 02:59 PM
  #107
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The players association wants to continue to sucker stupid teams into spending stupid money on their players.Bettman wants a sucker proof system

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01-21-2005, 03:01 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Fair enough.

I would add that question to the list of two other major points that remain unanswered (at least to this observer):

1) Why has Bettman kept publicly saying that the league is not tied to a hardcap, yet by all accounts that is the sticking point here?

2) Why can't the two sides find mutually acceptable, third-party formula for auditing league revenue?

as far as number 2 goes i am sure they could find a formula for revenue if the players would agree to a cap. Their unwillingness to agree on a cap and then negotiate what revenue is and then a number to set the cap at is the main problem.

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01-21-2005, 03:05 PM
  #109
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If I owned a business which I purchased with my hard-earned money, it would be a cold day in Hades when I let the employees dictate their rate of pay. Screw those jokers who think the inmates should run the asylum. Down with the NHLPA!

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01-21-2005, 03:07 PM
  #110
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UGH, things are going from bad to worse. I especially feel angered by this remark:

"We want the right deal," Devellano said. "The hockey's not important. ... "My hope and wish is (these talks) start us toward a deal for next season."

Not important?!?!?!? Well thanks a lot buddy. Thanks for nothing. Obviously this guy doesn't give a rats @ss about the sport(like most of them), he just wants his dirty old money. Doesn't care about the fans either, I'll bet. Can't stand this. The whole thing is making me sick....... :mad: :mad: :mad:

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01-21-2005, 03:43 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by KB
If I owned a business which I purchased with my hard-earned money, it would be a cold day in Hades when I let the employees dictate their rate of pay. Screw those jokers who think the inmates should run the asylum. Down with the NHLPA!
If you currently own a team in the NHL nobody is forcing you to pay the players exhorbitant salaries. These were all conscious decisions made by owners & GM's.

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01-21-2005, 03:46 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
If you currently own a team in the NHL nobody is forcing you to pay the players exhorbitant salaries. These were all conscious decisions made by owners & GM's.
You know who forces the owners to pay the exhorbitant salaries? Public pressure from media and fans who scream that an owner is "cheap" and say they "don't want to win" when the owner tries to hold the line on salaries.

That's who ... and you don't see the same thing happen to owners of other businesses which is why it doesn't make a lot of sense to compare the sports business with other ones.

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01-21-2005, 03:47 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
If you currently own a team in the NHL nobody is forcing you to pay the players exhorbitant salaries. These were all conscious decisions made by owners & GM's.

It's not just that John, it's if you owned a team would you spend more money than you could afford?

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01-21-2005, 03:51 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
If you currently own a team in the NHL nobody is forcing you to pay the players exhorbitant salaries. These were all conscious decisions made by owners & GM's.
Ah, the brilliance of your simple, yet not simplistic, statement.

And, ironically, it applies right up to today. League could resume operations tonight...and if a majority of owners exercised discipline moving forward, even in the face of some ill-conceived contracts being thrown out by their peers (and the complaints of hypocritical whiny fans and media), they could reduce the overall amount of league revenue reallocated to player payroll in a matter of a couple of season.

...In which case, the owners would have more $$$ to put into their own pockets...and in which case, the same fans would still complain.


Last edited by Trottier: 01-21-2005 at 04:02 PM.
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01-21-2005, 03:55 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Greschner4
You know who forces the owners to pay the exhorbitant salaries? Public pressure from media and fans who scream that an owner is "cheap" and say they "don't want to win" when the owner tries to hold the line on salaries.

That's who ... and you don't see the same thing happen to owners of other businesses which is why it doesn't make a lot of sense to compare the sports business with other ones.

These multi-millionaire and billionaire businessman didn't create their fortunes and amass all that wealth by folding to public pressure and listening to the media.



Bottom line is that 95% of all sports owners are in it more for ego than they are to make money.

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01-21-2005, 03:56 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
If you currently own a team in the NHL nobody is forcing you to pay the players exhorbitant salaries. These were all conscious decisions made by owners & GM's.
See but this whole argument is only a half argument. Let's go back to the original quote from Linden about the autoworkers.

If an entire plant decides, that's it, I've had it, we are going to quit. More employees will just be hired to fill their place if it is worth keeping the plant open.

If NHL players say screw you to the NHL, you are bringing in far inferior workers to do the job, and because you are entertainment, and not labour, you will struggle extensively. The London Knights, a Canadian Junior Hockey Team are averaging more fans per game than the best averaged team in the American Hockey League. That is a problem, because that is what a replacement player filled league essentially be. An AHL quality league that is filled with people who have glaring weaknesses that kept them out of the NHL in the first place.

yes, their talent level is still massively greater than the average person on the street, but the game is going to be significantly reduced in speed, skill, and entertainment value.

As for Trottier's post:

1) The reason why Bettman and Co. don't just come out and say we are getting our hard cap and nothing less, is the same reason why Bettman isn't going to cancel the season with big fanfare. Because it doesn't look good. It's one thing to say we want a hard hard, but it is another thing to say we are getting a hard cap or else there is no hockey. It keeps open the unrealistic idea that the NHL is willing to negotiate off a hard cap, when from how things have gone thus far it appears that this is definatley not the case.

2) Why revenues are going to be impossible to fix. Because businesses love to have loopholes. They need those ways to make losses seem bigger when they are looking for handouts, and they need them to be minute when they are looking to sell. They need ways to show their figures to best suit them. I dont' blame the owners for this, because all ownership wants this ability, but that is why it is so difficult to agree on things. If you get the players to agree to a cap, they are going to want 100% visibility of the owners finances in anything remotely involved with the team, and the owners won't give them that.

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01-21-2005, 03:59 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by London Knights
See but this whole argument is only a half argument. Let's go back to the original quote from Linden about the autoworkers.

If an entire plant decides, that's it, I've had it, we are going to quit. More employees will just be hired to fill their place if it is worth keeping the plant open.

If NHL players say screw you to the NHL, you are bringing in far inferior workers to do the job, and because you are entertainment, and not labour, you will struggle extensively. The London Knights, a Canadian Junior Hockey Team are averaging more fans per game than the best averaged team in the American Hockey League. That is a problem, because that is what a replacement player filled league essentially be. An AHL quality league that is filled with people who have glaring weaknesses that kept them out of the NHL in the first place.
Is that happening ??? Are the players on strike, threatening to quite or leave the NHL ???

Actually they're willing to give back a chunk of money and give the owners better tools than they currently have to keep salaries in line.

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01-21-2005, 04:01 PM
  #118
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What alternate reality do these players live in?
'nobody is going to take away my DREAM job, playing a GAME I love, where the average salary under the last CBA offer from the owners (if I stooped to accept it outright) would be $1.3 million and I could conceivably make it for 8 yrs, that is just unacceptable!'

Never mind that this 8 year salary alone (if they never worked again) is probably 10 times what an average job would pay over a lifetime of employment! it is INSULTING!!

I have lost whatever respect I had for the NHLPA and Trevor Linden. BRING ON THE REPLACEMENTS!

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01-21-2005, 04:05 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
If you currently own a team in the NHL nobody is forcing you to pay the players exhorbitant salaries. These were all conscious decisions made by owners & GM's.
Yes, but the pace was set by a few of the "haves". They don't represent the majority, yet had a huge effect on them. At some point, the majority had to keep up with the Joneses to remain competitive. It got to a point beyond reproach, which brings us to where we are today.

John, put yourself in the shoes of any business owner. I'm certain you'd agree with my stance.

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01-21-2005, 04:06 PM
  #120
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Neither side can afford to lose the season, because both sides lose a lot, and I'm not even talking about us fans.


There is always a lot of talk during a lockout, the fact of the matter is that they want to distract the media circus, and then when a deal is completed everyone looks like heroes.

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01-21-2005, 04:08 PM
  #121
Greschner4
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
These multi-millionaire and billionaire businessman didn't create their fortunes and amass all that wealth by folding to public pressure and listening to the media.



Bottom line is that 95% of all sports owners are in it more for ego than they are to make money.

No, but they didn't create their fortunes in hockey either.

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01-21-2005, 04:08 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by London Knights

1) The reason why Bettman and Co. don't just come out and say we are getting our hard cap and nothing less, is the same reason why Bettman isn't going to cancel the season with big fanfare. Because it doesn't look good. It's one thing to say we want a hard hard, but it is another thing to say we are getting a hard cap or else there is no hockey. It keeps open the unrealistic idea that the NHL is willing to negotiate off a hard cap, when from how things have gone thus far it appears that this is definatley not the case.

Agreed, it was really more of a rhetorical question. Bettman is lying publicly, apparently (some might call it "PR").

2) Why revenues are going to be impossible to fix. Because businesses love to have loopholes. They need those ways to make losses seem bigger when they are looking for handouts, and they need them to be minute when they are looking to sell. They need ways to show their figures to best suit them. I dont' blame the owners for this, because all ownership wants this ability, but that is why it is so difficult to agree on things. If you get the players to agree to a cap, they are going to want 100% visibility of the owners finances in anything remotely involved with the team, and the owners won't give them that.

Can't disagree, but the same issues apply to the NFL and NBA, and there is "full disclosure". Alas, per your last sentence, perhaps the owners want to have their "hardcap cake" and eat it too (not reveal their finances). Now, that would be truly laughable (or insulting, were one a member of the NHLPA).

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01-21-2005, 04:10 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KB
Yes, but the pace was set by a few of the "haves". They don't represent the majority, yet had a huge effect on them. At some point, the majority had to keep up with the Joneses to remain competitive. It got a point beyond reproach, which brings us where we are today.

John, put yourselves in the shoes of any business owner. I'm certain you'd agree with my stance.
#1. I am a business owner. I look at this from the following viewpoint:

Former union member (Teamsters & United Food & commercial Workers)
Former non-union employee
Worked in management with union employees (Teamsters)
Worked in management with non-union employees.
Current Business owner with non-union employees.

#2. It isn't just the big market teams setting the bar: Washington, Pittsburgh, Boston, Carolina, Anaheim and Tampa have offered some of the most ridiculous contracts in recent years, and have done as much to raise the bar as anyone.

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01-21-2005, 04:11 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
If you currently own a team in the NHL nobody is forcing you to pay the players exhorbitant salaries. These were all conscious decisions made by owners & GM's.
That's not exactly true. The market forces owners and GMs to pay over-inflated salaries. If the dopey owner of Team A gives a 25-goal scorer a $5 million contract, Team B has almost no choice to do the same for its own 25-goal scorer. If they refuse, the player gos to arbitration where almost invariably he wins because the market for a 25-goal scorer has been set at $5 million.
The only real choice for the owner or GM is whether to pay what it takes to field consistently competitive team. And too many teams right now cannot pay that price.

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01-21-2005, 04:15 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by CarlRacki
That's not exactly true. The market forces owners and GMs to pay over-inflated salaries. If the dopey owner of Team A gives a 25-goal scorer a $5 million contract, Team B has almost no choice to do the same for its own 25-goal scorer. If they refuse, the player gos to arbitration where almost invariably he wins because the market for a 25-goal scorer has been set at $5 million.
The only real choice for the owner or GM is whether to pay what it takes to field consistently competitive team. And too many teams right now cannot pay that price.
I'm not looking to continue with the exact same system, changes to qualifying offers, arbitration etc. need to be made in order to lessen the inflationary system of the previous CBA.

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