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Old
08-24-2012, 08:05 AM
  #26
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I'm really getting turned off to the NHL. The pandering to fans from Bettman yesterday, stating that they came back "stronger than ever last time because we have the best fans in the world" was absolutely disgusting.

I hope the owners lose just because they can't keep their house in order. There would be absolutely zero need for a lock out if ownerships weren't so out of control.

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08-24-2012, 08:15 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
No. If the owners win it will be good for the owners. That doesn't mean the Penguins will be any better off. They spend to the cap, and will do so regardless of what revenue changes are adopted. They sell out every game, and will do so regardless of what changes are adopted.

Don't be fooled. If the owners win and get a system where they make more money that has absolutely nothing to do with the Pens putting a better product on the ice because we're fortunate enough to already have owners that do every thing they possibly can to make sure the Pens have the best team possible.
Things are good for the Penguins right now..that doesn't mean they always will be, and even now, I'm not sure if they are a profitable franchise. I prefer them to be on as stable financial grounds as possible, anybody that doesn't, I feel probably wasn't around as a fan for the late 90's and 2000's.....

In the end, the owners are the ones that take all the risks, the players get guaranteed contracts, that will be worth a pretty penny regardless if it's a 50/50 split or 57/43 split. There's too many teams losing money. Maybe contraction is needed, but players don't want that either (loss of overall jobs). So, they'll have to allow the NHL to bring the salary cap inline to the other hard caps in NA sports (NBA and NFL with caps at approx. 50%)

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08-24-2012, 08:18 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Slabber Chops View Post
That's the frustrating point. What is the problem this time?? I'll give a pretty penny to the person who can adequately answer that question.
There's a bunch of teams and owners losing a lot of money every year. Where's my pretty penny?

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08-24-2012, 08:35 AM
  #29
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I haven't decided yet, but i'm leaning on letting my Center Ice package go and also not attending anymore games here in Montreal against my Pens as well as driving to Ottawa. Screw them, 3 lockouts in what 16 years? Bettman is the reason some of the teams can't operate where they're located, he insisted in having teams in a market that wouldn't work.

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08-24-2012, 09:09 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by bathroomSTAAL View Post
I can tell I'm getting older and more disillusioned 'cause I don't even care anymore. **** everybody.
This is exactly how I feel. I don't even have the time of day or energy to follow what's going on with this. But I have to admit, I'll be pissed if there is no Pens/Islanders game on October 12th.

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08-24-2012, 10:03 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
i really dont care which side is in the "right."

bottom line, if the owners win it will be good for the penguins. if the players win, it will be bad for the penguins.

hence i side with the owners.
You're assuming a lot and the Penguins' financial situation is a lot better than it used to be, without or without Crosby. The team has much deeper pockets now, a new arena, etc. You can't assume just because we're not Philly or NY that any player proposal is going to be "bad for the Penguins".

To answer your other question, there is no fundamental problem the league faces financially. The problem is the owners decided to make a money grab and won't back down from a ridiculous position. They have intended to lock the players out from the beginning of the summer IMO. They knew there was no chance in hell the proposal they made would fly, on any of the major points.

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08-24-2012, 10:54 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
You're assuming a lot and the Penguins' financial situation is a lot better than it used to be, without or without Crosby. The team has much deeper pockets now, a new arena, etc. You can't assume just because we're not Philly or NY that any player proposal is going to be "bad for the Penguins".

To answer your other question, there is no fundamental problem the league faces financially. The problem is the owners decided to make a money grab and won't back down from a ridiculous position. They have intended to lock the players out from the beginning of the summer IMO. They knew there was no chance in hell the proposal they made would fly, on any of the major points.
1. We are losing money every year we don't make a deep playoff run.

2. That makes us one of the better off teams because plenty of them are hemorrhaging money. Most of the owners have a fairly legitimate gripe. There definitely is a fundamental problem for quite a few owners. We are pretty much right on the border.

I don't think the best solution is to take ALL of the money to fix this from the players. When 3 teams (TOR, MON, NYR) make more profit than the other 27 teams combined, some revenue sharing changes should be made. But at the same time, those owners shouldn't have to fund the entire league just because they are more successful. A lot of these teams need to generate more money and the only other place to get it is from the players.

Obviously, I think the owners initial plan was way too much. But so was the players. The biggest advantage the players have going for them right now is that they are being more media friendly with their off the wall claims. I've said it a few times. Both sides suck. Neither gives a damn about fans. Maybe the players themselves do, but Donal Fehr sure as hell doesn't.

The answer is somewhere between what the two want. But for the best health of a competitive sports league, I think the answers are closer to the owners side. Some combination of expanded revenue sharing and the players taking a smaller cut is what we will eventually see.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 08-24-2012 at 11:03 AM.
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08-24-2012, 11:31 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
You're assuming a lot and the Penguins' financial situation is a lot better than it used to be, without or without Crosby. The team has much deeper pockets now, a new arena, etc. You can't assume just because we're not Philly or NY that any player proposal is going to be "bad for the Penguins".

To answer your other question, there is no fundamental problem the league faces financially. The problem is the owners decided to make a money grab and won't back down from a ridiculous position. They have intended to lock the players out from the beginning of the summer IMO. They knew there was no chance in hell the proposal they made would fly, on any of the major points.
I don't see an NHL where the Flyers can buy 4 million in cap space from the Coyotes to be too good for the Penguins.

Sure with Burkle & the new Arena they're in a lot better of a place than they were 10 years ago, but still, they're not as deep in the black as the really big market teams & the less cap stability there is I worry about a self-imposed budget coming into play for the team.

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08-24-2012, 11:36 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
1. We are losing money every year we don't make a deep playoff run.

2. That makes us one of the better off teams because plenty of them are hemorrhaging money. Most of the owners have a fairly legitimate gripe. There definitely is a fundamental problem for quite a few owners. We are pretty much right on the border.

I don't think the best solution is to take ALL of the money to fix this from the players. When 3 teams (TOR, MON, NYR) make more profit than the other 27 teams combined, some revenue sharing changes should be made. But at the same time, those owners shouldn't have to fund the entire league just because they are more successful. A lot of these teams need to generate more money and the only other place to get it is from the players.

Obviously, I think the owners initial plan was way too much. But so was the players. The biggest advantage the players have going for them right now is that they are being more media friendly with their off the wall claims. I've said it a few times. Both sides suck. Neither gives a damn about fans. Maybe the players themselves do, but Donal Fehr sure as hell doesn't.

The answer is somewhere between what the two want. But for the best health of a competitive sports league, I think the answers are closer to the owners side. Some combination of expanded revenue sharing and the players taking a smaller cut is what we will eventually see.
Revenue sharing needs to definitely have a limit. You don't want to breed situations where teams get complacent in their position in the league & would rather stay near the floor & make a small profit & be a bad to mediocre team rather than spending more and trying to win.

I'm not so much worried about leaching the sweat from Toronto, Montreal, and New York's collective brow so much as I am about destroying the parity of the league through too much or too little revenue sharing.

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08-24-2012, 01:46 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 View Post
I haven't decided yet, but i'm leaning on letting my Center Ice package go and also not attending anymore games here in Montreal against my Pens as well as driving to Ottawa. Screw them, 3 lockouts in what 16 years? Bettman is the reason some of the teams can't operate where they're located, he insisted in having teams in a market that wouldn't work.
Do it man.

I cancelled my Centre Ice yesterday (partly because I'm moving in 3 weeks, but even so I'm not re-newing it once I move to Kitchener unless there's hugely positive changes made.)

After pondering what to do to fill the (presumably) NHL-less gap in my upcoming evenings, I've just decided to take the $$$ that I would have happily put towards a new huge kick ass TV and Centre Ice, and use it for attending Kitchener Rangers OHL games and whatnot instead. I've never followed Junior hockey before and I must say I'm damn excited to be moving to a city where I'd have a hometown team to root for and go to games.

Plus with tickets only $21 how can I say no?

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08-24-2012, 01:47 PM
  #36
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For everyone claiming that we're on such stable ground...we have one of the most exciting teams in the NHL, with the most markeatable star the league has had since Lemieux...and we still don't crack a profit most seasons.

And lots of teams are absolutely losing money, too much. To say stuff like 'the owners are making a cash grab' sounds a bit...foolish to me. Again, the players get paid regardless. Their contracts are guaranteed. They will be compensated very very fairly whether it's a 57/43% split, or a 50/50% split (which is in line with other leagues). The same cannot be said about most owners. The NHL is a business, the business will not survive if well over half of it's franchises are losing money, many of them, lots of it.

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08-24-2012, 01:55 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Sorry but the Owners have made themselves out to be complete buffoons in this so far. I'm on the players side.
This whole situation sucks. They started negotiating way to late and this 2-4 hours a day crap needs to STOP NOW!!! But when you have Bettman saying the fans will return even if we lockout, he's willing to play with fire.

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08-24-2012, 02:59 PM
  #38
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Sorry but the Owners have made themselves out to be complete buffoons in this so far. I'm on the players side.
Then you are taking an inherently anti-Penguins position Shrimper.

I have a theory about this. Fehr is known as a Wizerd of Media Manipulation in some circles. The owners, knowing they are totally outclassed, won't even bother trying to win the PR battle Fehr is manipulating.

And one of the biggest problems for owners is the complicated nature of this negotiation. For instance, they are not going to come out and say that if they let Fehr win this round and build stronger support in the NHLPA, that they are cutting their's and our's throats for the next negotiation. A lot of these folks are thinking "better to sacrifice half a season now, than a whole season-or even longer-in the next negotiation.

Also, try explaining to fans the challenging internal dynamic amongst small-market and big-market owners.... They won't even go there because sowing internal ownership discord is how Fehr beat Baseball contract after contract.

If you care to look, there is plenty of data to be Googled that shows the NHL is in trouble again financially. Once they broke the players in the last lockout, they were too generous in final negotiations, probably because things were already so slanted towards the players that they were already giving up a ton compared to what they had per-lockout, when the NHLPA was getting over 70% of the revenues.

Finally-at the end of the last lockout the owners did not anticipate the rapid change in market conditions brought on by the weakening US Dollar, that would allow teams like Toronto, Monteal, and Vancouver to pull so far ahead of other markets that costs would get out of hand for the majority of teams.

Such are my informed opinions.


Last edited by Gallatin: 08-24-2012 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Grammar
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Old
08-24-2012, 03:07 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
You're assuming a lot and the Penguins' financial situation is a lot better than it used to be, without or without Crosby. The team has much deeper pockets now, a new arena, etc. You can't assume just because we're not Philly or NY that any player proposal is going to be "bad for the Penguins".

To answer your other question, there is no fundamental problem the league faces financially. The problem is the owners decided to make a money grab and won't back down from a ridiculous position. They have intended to lock the players out from the beginning of the summer IMO. They knew there was no chance in hell the proposal they made would fly, on any of the major points.
Chancelor - in the face of market data clearly showing a league at risk fiscally - your position on this is quite stunning. Where is your data supporting the theory of a fiscally sound League that is just out to take advantage of players and fans?

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08-24-2012, 03:12 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
1. We are losing money every year we don't make a deep playoff run.

2. That makes us one of the better off teams because plenty of them are hemorrhaging money. Most of the owners have a fairly legitimate gripe. There definitely is a fundamental problem for quite a few owners. We are pretty much right on the border.

I don't think the best solution is to take ALL of the money to fix this from the players. When 3 teams (TOR, MON, NYR) make more profit than the other 27 teams combined, some revenue sharing changes should be made. But at the same time, those owners shouldn't have to fund the entire league just because they are more successful. A lot of these teams need to generate more money and the only other place to get it is from the players.

Obviously, I think the owners initial plan was way too much. But so was the players. The biggest advantage the players have going for them right now is that they are being more media friendly with their off the wall claims. I've said it a few times. Both sides suck. Neither gives a damn about fans. Maybe the players themselves do, but Donal Fehr sure as hell doesn't.

The answer is somewhere between what the two want. But for the best health of a competitive sports league, I think the answers are closer to the owners side. Some combination of expanded revenue sharing and the players taking a smaller cut is what we will eventually see.
I agree with your well stated logic here Ogrezilla. They both suck, and they both need to give - players to 50/50 with contract restrictions such as 8 year limit and 10% max yearly pay differential - owners need to increase profit sharing.


Last edited by Gallatin: 08-24-2012 at 03:26 PM. Reason: Spelling
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08-24-2012, 03:16 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by SkullSplitter View Post
Revenue sharing needs to definitely have a limit. You don't want to breed situations where teams get complacent in their position in the league & would rather stay near the floor & make a small profit & be a bad to mediocre team rather than spending more and trying to win.

I'm not so much worried about leaching the sweat from Toronto, Montreal, and New York's collective brow so much as I am about destroying the parity of the league through too much or too little revenue sharing.
Great point Skullsplitter. Too much revenue sharing can be harmful as well as helpful. Stealing from Peter to pay Paul only goes so far before things begin to break down.

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08-24-2012, 03:28 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
You're assuming a lot and the Penguins' financial situation is a lot better than it used to be, without or without Crosby. The team has much deeper pockets now, a new arena, etc. You can't assume just because we're not Philly or NY that any player proposal is going to be "bad for the Penguins".

To answer your other question, there is no fundamental problem the league faces financially. The problem is the owners decided to make a money grab and won't back down from a ridiculous position. They have intended to lock the players out from the beginning of the summer IMO. They knew there was no chance in hell the proposal they made would fly, on any of the major points.
\

honest question, how exactly are the penguins in a much better financial situation than a decade ago? are their pockets really that much deeper now?

they have a new arena, big stars, and a winning product. but the ownership is the same. people talk about burkle and his huge pockets but he was still a part of the ownership group when the team was about the leave town. hes not suddenly some sort of savior that is willing to lose huge amounts of money.

i seriously cant believe you are blaming the owners for this. they are probably all a-holes. i just know bettman has treated the penguins EXCEEDINGLY well during his time as commissioner. i also dont know anything about baseball, because the sport is retarded. and its retarded largely because of fehr. you seriously dont see anything wrong in siding with that guy?

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08-24-2012, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Sorry but the Owners have made themselves out to be complete buffoons in this so far. I'm on the players side.
how long have you been a pens fan? do you remember how close this team was to leaving, but was ultimately saved in large part due to an owner-friendly cba?

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08-24-2012, 03:41 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
\

honest question, how exactly are the penguins in a much better financial situation than a decade ago? are their pockets really that much deeper now?

they have a new arena, big stars, and a winning product. but the ownership is the same. people talk about burkle and his huge pockets but he was still a part of the ownership group when the team was about the leave town. hes not suddenly some sort of savior that is willing to lose huge amounts of money.

i seriously cant believe you are blaming the owners for this. they are probably all a-holes. i just know bettman has treated the penguins EXCEEDINGLY well during his time as commissioner. i also dont know anything about baseball, because the sport is retarded. and its retarded largely because of fehr. you seriously dont see anything wrong in siding with that guy?
we are much better off than a decade ago mostly because of the arena situation. We are stable now. Before we were a train wreck. But we certainly aren't a team that could spend with the likes of Philly or NYR if the cap were to go away. As you said, aside from the very short term, a lower cap is absolutely in our favor. We are probably somewhere towards the middle overall as far as ability to spend goes.

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08-24-2012, 03:49 PM
  #45
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Do it man.

I cancelled my Centre Ice yesterday (partly because I'm moving in 3 weeks, but even so I'm not re-newing it once I move to Kitchener unless there's hugely positive changes made.)

After pondering what to do to fill the (presumably) NHL-less gap in my upcoming evenings, I've just decided to take the $$$ that I would have happily put towards a new huge kick ass TV and Centre Ice, and use it for attending Kitchener Rangers OHL games and whatnot instead. I've never followed Junior hockey before and I must say I'm damn excited to be moving to a city where I'd have a hometown team to root for and go to games.

Plus with tickets only $21 how can I say no?
Well basically waiting for Sept.15th, if they confirm a lock out i'm calling Bell and getting rid of my package. I also might go watch some Junior hockey, live 10 minutes away from Boisbriands (lhjmq). I'll go watch when some interesting prospects come to town

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08-24-2012, 06:26 PM
  #46
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Googled up some more Data today in my futile attempts to talk The Chancellor into taking a more Penguin friendly position on the impending lockout.

Turns out Forbes is the only newscorp doing yearly financial reviews of the NHL (I know-surprise surprise) and there is a 4 year trend that was easy to identify, while quite disturbing.

The number of teams in the red has been steadily increasing for years; 12 in 2008, 14 in 2009, 16 in 2010, and 18 in 2011. So in 4 years we went from 12 teams losing money to only 12 teams making money.

That is a horrifying trend for any League. It's especially bad given the record breaking increases in net revenue over the same time period.

The NHL business model as presently designed in the CBA is completely unsustainable. I did not know it was this bad. The owners literally can't give in to Donald Fehr and the players, it would be like slitting their own throats.

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08-24-2012, 06:51 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Gallatin View Post
Googled up some more Data today in my futile attempts to talk The Chancellor into taking a more Penguin friendly position on the impending lockout.

Turns out Forbes is the only newscorp doing yearly financial reviews of the NHL (I know-surprise surprise) and there is a 4 year trend that was easy to identify, while quite disturbing.

The number of teams in the red has been steadily increasing for years; 12 in 2008, 14 in 2009, 16 in 2010, and 18 in 2011. So in 4 years we went from 12 teams losing money to only 12 teams making money.


That is a horrifying trend for any League. It's especially bad given the record breaking increases in net revenue over the same time period.

The NHL business model as presently designed in the CBA is completely unsustainable. I did not know it was this bad. The owners literally can't give in to Donald Fehr and the players, it would be like slitting their own throats.
Yeah, that is certainly not what you would expect, given the league's increased net revenue.

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08-24-2012, 08:33 PM
  #48
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Yeah, that is certainly not what you would expect, given the league's increased net revenue.
In addition to the players getting too much, there are big internal problems for the Owners: last year 5 teams netted 210 million while the other 25 collectively lost 84 million. Serious revenue sharing that does not disincetivise the top performing teams to keep growing their revenue is key.

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08-24-2012, 09:13 PM
  #49
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Pardon my ignorance, I know there are all kinds of insane legalities that would be massive headaches. But what's the likelyhood of contraction after this lockout (if it does take place)?

I'm not a fan of it... But looking at a dollars a cents side of it, it may be benifical for the league to have less than 30 teams. Don't flame... Just curious for knowledge/info from those more knowledgable than me these days, due to my service I don't have the time like I used to too have my nose in every noke and crany of info.

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08-24-2012, 10:09 PM
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Pardon my ignorance, I know there are all kinds of insane legalities that would be massive headaches. But what's the likelyhood of contraction after this lockout (if it does take place)?

I'm not a fan of it... But looking at a dollars a cents side of it, it may be benifical for the league to have less than 30 teams. Don't flame... Just curious for knowledge/info from those more knowledgable than me these days, due to my service I don't have the time like I used to too have my nose in every noke and crany of info.
I actually think the league can support 20 teams. I think the problem with that is more about where than if. Does FLA really need 2 teams? I would rather see teams in both Quebec and Hamilton than 2 FLA teams. Not only will great teams sell out there but even if a team is on the cusp of being good, like the Yotes and Panthers, they'll do great. There's less downside.

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