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So who is bummed about the lockout?

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Old
09-16-2012, 11:46 AM
  #326
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Originally Posted by forthewild View Post
all i'm saying is all 30 owners should hear the proposal, i highly doubt that all 30 owners want a lockout, i'm going to say this on a hunch and that is you would be hard pressed to find 10 of them who are voting for a lockout.

this number being owners not answering for the media or pr, but their true feeling. i don't by the Jeremy Jacobs vote that he called for after the first vote where they are all for it.

in any case the people who lose are the fans,
Except the only teams who would even conceivably vote against a lockout are the ones you're so concerned are "running the whole thing." The "rich boys" would even dream of missing a season this year because they'd need 10+ years of this deal to break even on that. The owners aren't answering to the media because they're strictly forbidden by league rules from discussing the lockout. All the conspiracy theories in the world can't make up for the fact that 29 established businessmen make up the owners, and they understand the value of a silent, unified front where all answers come from a single PR outlet. The players are 700+ often uneducated media centerpieces, used to being hounded by the media until they give up an answer, and so they're apt to inciting dissent within themselves.

But by your logic, we can all assume the 500 or so players who haven't commented on the lockout just accept the league's proposal and those opposed to it are just a vocal minority who "control" the negotiating process to the detriment of the rest of the players.

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09-16-2012, 02:28 PM
  #327
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09-16-2012, 03:13 PM
  #328
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09-16-2012, 03:25 PM
  #329
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09-16-2012, 04:14 PM
  #330
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Less games with Lapanta calling that's the best news of this all!

Honestly I have a hard time believing or putting into context this lockout transpiring again for 2nd time in 8 years. Both sides are to blame equally, in a down economy with terrible unemployment, children starving and unrest accross the world to be squabbling like this just angers me to no end, and the NHL is CERTAINLY not alone in that. I hate that fans are taken advantage of because the NHL knows we will come back, but in terms of growing the game and trying to spread this great game to others, we will forever, forever be the distant 4th and from now on I will never question or wonder as to why. Greatest game in North America ruined by inept leaders, it's just hard to sit back and watch.

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09-16-2012, 04:34 PM
  #331
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Now get the matching picture of Fehr and his work stoppage count.
Actually Fehr's record isn't that bad... yes, there was the strike that cancelled the World Series in '94, but the players had been pretty severely dicked over with collusion right before that and I'm not sure anyone could have kept them from striking considering the circumstances. But baseball hasn't had a work stoppage since then. Fehr got two CBAs signed after that without any lockout or strike, and they've been solid enough that the last round of negotiations went smoothly after he left.

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09-16-2012, 04:57 PM
  #332
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you can't seriously doubt there would have been a strike called at playoff time, when the owners see their profits and that the owners didn't realize this?

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09-16-2012, 05:41 PM
  #333
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you can't seriously doubt there would have been a strike called at playoff time, when the owners see their profits and that the owners didn't realize this?
Was that at me or at someone else? I wasn't really talking about what I expect Fehr to do here. Avder just said something about Fehr's "work stoppage" record; I looked it up and it turns out he has more labor peace in his history than labor conflict. (The same can't be said of Bettman, who literally has never successfully negotiated a CBA without missing games...)

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09-16-2012, 06:20 PM
  #334
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09-16-2012, 06:21 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by llamapalooza View Post
Was that at me or at someone else? I wasn't really talking about what I expect Fehr to do here. Avder just said something about Fehr's "work stoppage" record; I looked it up and it turns out he has more labor peace in his history than labor conflict. (The same can't be said of Bettman, who literally has never successfully negotiated a CBA without missing games...)
Bettman has presided over 3 work stoppages in 19 years. Fehr has presided over 6 work stoppages in 25 years. That means Bettman averaged a work stoppage once per 6.33 years while Fehr has averaged a work stoppage once per 4.17 years.

As for Fehr's record, he has a grand total of two negotiations under his belt that didn't involve a work stoppage. Those two were also the most recent negotiations, likely a result not of some special ability possessed by him, but by the realities of the baseball environment.

As for any comments about the "necessity" of Fehr's work stoppages, he has more "unnecessary" stoppages on his record than Bettman does. While Fehr's first few stoppages were very well justified, Bettman's first two were desperately needed (well, if the players hadn't been such ignorant collaborators in 1995, 2005 would have never happened) and this third is at the very least arguably necessary from the owners standpoint as well (and completely unnecessary from the players). It's best just for the PA and any PA supporters to not open that can of worms because there's far more skeletons in their closet than the league's.

Edit to add: Furthermore, the success Bettman had in 94-95 led to 10 years of labor peace from a single agreement. There's a certain side here that desperately wants this to be an every 3 years occurrence while simultaneously claiming that every new CBA takes more and more from them. If that were a legitimate concern, why wouldn't they support a 5-10 year CBA instead? It would make them far better off by their own reasoning.

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09-16-2012, 07:38 PM
  #336
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Lockouts an hour old and am already ****in pissed off. Hopefully Gary will see some light and get this **** moving #notholdingmybreath
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09-16-2012, 07:51 PM
  #337
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You'd think Bettman would listen to a ****ing All-Star. Guess not.

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09-16-2012, 07:54 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
Bettman has presided over 3 work stoppages in 19 years. Fehr has presided over 6 work stoppages in 25 years. That means Bettman averaged a work stoppage once per 6.33 years while Fehr has averaged a work stoppage once per 4.17 years.

As for Fehr's record, he has a grand total of two negotiations under his belt that didn't involve a work stoppage. Those two were also the most recent negotiations, likely a result not of some special ability possessed by him, but by the realities of the baseball environment.

As for any comments about the "necessity" of Fehr's work stoppages, he has more "unnecessary" stoppages on his record than Bettman does. While Fehr's first few stoppages were very well justified, Bettman's first two were desperately needed (well, if the players hadn't been such ignorant collaborators in 1995, 2005 would have never happened) and this third is at the very least arguably necessary from the owners standpoint as well (and completely unnecessary from the players). It's best just for the PA and any PA supporters to not open that can of worms because there's far more skeletons in their closet than the league's.

Edit to add: Furthermore, the success Bettman had in 94-95 led to 10 years of labor peace from a single agreement. There's a certain side here that desperately wants this to be an every 3 years occurrence while simultaneously claiming that every new CBA takes more and more from them. If that were a legitimate concern, why wouldn't they support a 5-10 year CBA instead? It would make them far better off by their own reasoning.
I keep hearing that Fehr had 6 stoppages, but for the life of me I can only find 3 since he took over as mlbpa director. Ferh was acting director starting december 1983, he was voted director in december 1985. Looking at mlb work stoppages I see 1985 for 2 days 0 games lost, 1990 for 32 preseason days 0 games lost, and the 94-95 strike that lost the whole season . Unless your counting the 3 stoppages when Fehr was a lawyer for the mlbpa from 1977 - 1983.http://www.stevetheump.com/baseball_stoppages.htm

Edit: if you look at it Fehr was just a lawyer hired in 1976 for one case involving two pitchers. He wasn't hired to the mlbpa until 1977, so he ws a lawyer for the mlbpa during two stopages.

Edit 2: looking further(and if you want to include the 1976 lockout when Fehr wasn't even part of the mlbpa) 1976 17 days 0 games lost, 1980 8 days 0 games lost, 1981 50 days 712 games lost. So if you count all the years Fehr was involved with the mlbpa, not director, there have only been two years with games missed due to stoppages. I feel that all the hatred towards Fehr is miss guided.

Edit 3: looking at the number of games lost between mlb(Fehr) and nhl(bettman). Mlb lost 1650 games(Fehr not being director the entire time, and NHL 1698 games all while bettman was nhl commissioner.


Last edited by Pinchy11: 09-16-2012 at 09:12 PM.
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09-16-2012, 09:11 PM
  #339
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Maybe I'm just biased and bitter then because MLB still does not have any sort of REAL Salary Cap, and I would love to see that league forced into parity.

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09-16-2012, 09:20 PM
  #340
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Yea. God knows they could use it, too.

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Old
09-16-2012, 09:54 PM
  #341
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I predict that they're both gonna break their own records with this one though. I wouldn't doubt if this is the first time for both of them that a lockout lasts for more than one season.

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09-16-2012, 10:01 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Pinchy11 View Post
I keep hearing that Fehr had 6 stoppages, but for the life of me I can only find 3 since he took over as mlbpa director. Ferh was acting director starting december 1983, he was voted director in december 1985. Looking at mlb work stoppages I see 1985 for 2 days 0 games lost, 1990 for 32 preseason days 0 games lost, and the 94-95 strike that lost the whole season . Unless your counting the 3 stoppages when Fehr was a lawyer for the mlbpa from 1977 - 1983.http://www.stevetheump.com/baseball_stoppages.htm

Edit: if you look at it Fehr was just a lawyer hired in 1976 for one case involving two pitchers. He wasn't hired to the mlbpa until 1977, so he ws a lawyer for the mlbpa during two stopages.

Edit 2: looking further(and if you want to include the 1976 lockout when Fehr wasn't even part of the mlbpa) 1976 17 days 0 games lost, 1980 8 days 0 games lost, 1981 50 days 712 games lost. So if you count all the years Fehr was involved with the mlbpa, not director, there have only been two years with games missed due to stoppages. I feel that all the hatred towards Fehr is miss guided.

Edit 3: looking at the number of games lost between mlb(Fehr) and nhl(bettman). Mlb lost 1650 games(Fehr not being director the entire time, and NHL 1698 games all while bettman was nhl commissioner.
I had the same issue counting, but it's constantly quoted (even by the most unrelated or pro-PA sources) so I've taken it as accurate. That would adjust the total years and therefore strikes per year amounts though.

Fehr's reputation is well earned though. No one could ever be accused of being misguided in criticism of him. But even your game counting is a pretty silly representation of the ridiculous hoops people will go through to "prove Bettman is evil." If Bob Goodenow wasn't such a worthless piece of work, 2004-2005 would have never happened. The deal that came out of that lockout was essentially the deal the league attempted to win out of the 1994-1995 lockout. We can now see how massively that improved the league. Goodenow was such a problem that the players actually had him removed the moment the lockout was over.

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09-16-2012, 10:02 PM
  #343
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@Wildhockeyfan I know you're the pessimist, but I can't disagree with the way negotiations have been going.

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09-16-2012, 10:31 PM
  #344
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I predict that they're both gonna break their own records with this one though. I wouldn't doubt if this is the first time for both of them that a lockout lasts for more than one season.
The only, only, only positive to come out of this involves three balls... and Seth Jones, Nathan MacKinnon, and Sean Monahan.

Even though I, without a doubt, would rather have a full season, I would love to see the collective HF reaction if we got that high of a pick after picking up Parise and Suter this past summer.

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09-16-2012, 10:33 PM
  #345
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I don't think I can handle seeing Edmonton pick up another amazing prospect.

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09-16-2012, 10:42 PM
  #346
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Bettman would give it to Columbus, then Toronto, then us. Thats what I gotta believe right now.

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09-16-2012, 11:11 PM
  #347
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Ha, no way in hell we would win a lockout lottery. Edmonton has it locked up.

Or Toronto.

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09-16-2012, 11:19 PM
  #348
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Edmonton will only get one ball though whereas we'll get three. No doubt we probably won't win it but I don't think it's too farfetched to say that we'll get a top five pick.

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09-16-2012, 11:39 PM
  #349
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Less games with Lapanta calling that's the best news of this all!
I got this weird feeling that FSN will just have him call Gopher games with the NHL locked out and have "guests" when the Wild play and it overlaps.

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09-17-2012, 05:45 AM
  #350
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Bettman has presided over 3 work stoppages in 19 years. Fehr has presided over 6 work stoppages in 25 years. That means Bettman averaged a work stoppage once per 6.33 years while Fehr has averaged a work stoppage once per 4.17 years.

As for Fehr's record, he has a grand total of two negotiations under his belt that didn't involve a work stoppage. Those two were also the most recent negotiations, likely a result not of some special ability possessed by him, but by the realities of the baseball environment.

As for any comments about the "necessity" of Fehr's work stoppages, he has more "unnecessary" stoppages on his record than Bettman does. While Fehr's first few stoppages were very well justified, Bettman's first two were desperately needed (well, if the players hadn't been such ignorant collaborators in 1995, 2005 would have never happened) and this third is at the very least arguably necessary from the owners standpoint as well (and completely unnecessary from the players). It's best just for the PA and any PA supporters to not open that can of worms because there's far more skeletons in their closet than the league's.

Edit to add: Furthermore, the success Bettman had in 94-95 led to 10 years of labor peace from a single agreement. There's a certain side here that desperately wants this to be an every 3 years occurrence while simultaneously claiming that every new CBA takes more and more from them. If that were a legitimate concern, why wouldn't they support a 5-10 year CBA instead? It would make them far better off by their own reasoning.
there is NO argument to be made for the 3rd work stoppage, there is ZERO REASON FOR IT, the owners are trying to pay less on the deals they legally signed the players to, they are saying "we know we signed a binding contract but we feel like paying you 17.5% less, cool?" the 3rd lockout is INEXCUSABLE by the owners, 2004 was a necessary one, this one is beyond stupid.

The league does not have a revenue problem, it has a revenue distribution problem, lucrative markets are driving up the cost for less lucrative markets to contend with.

All the owners are proposing is a BAND AID SOLUTION, in no way is the owners proposal going to fix the ECONOMIC ISSUES with the system, in no way at all, it will just give the less lucrative markets a band aid, so Florida, Carolina, etc will lose less money or maybe even break even for a few years while revenues continue to climb.

This lockout is stupid, its not necessary and it is only to lace the pockets of those teams who are making money like crazy to make more of it. Not ONE of the owners proposals fixes the economic issues with the league, it is all a band aid, to say that this lockout can be justified is beyond ignorant.

ZERO JUSTIFICATION, owners are doing it because they got players to give back real money last time and they will try it again, its all due to GREED.

Also i cannot believe that a man such as your self who prides him self on logic is ok with owners trying to trim the legal contracts they signed themselves.

If this CBA was as broken as the owners are saying, then why did 200 million dollars worth of deals get done in the hours leading up to its expiration? in all honesty the sides are 5-7% apart and IF the owners drop the crusade (rather the few of the rich guys) that they NEED the players to give back real money THE OWNERS promised them, this deal gets done in a day.

there is no need for a system overhaul, the FA years are fair, maybe close the college loophole (the guy like Schults would have to play at least one year for a team that drafted him) the Cap is a good thing. The owners need to realize that they need to have a good revenue sharing plan.

Also as to the lockout record, what Fehr has left in the MLB is 17 years of labor peace, what Garry has in that time is 2 needed lockouts and 1 very very very terrible one.

time will tell how many games we lose, but this 3rd lockout is nothing more then owners saying to the players "get the measuring stick out, we'll show you who's the the wiener in this relationship"


Last edited by forthewild: 09-17-2012 at 05:57 AM.
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