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So who is bummed about the lockout?

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Old
09-03-2012, 12:19 AM
  #126
Victorious Secret
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Not really. But people want to put a face on the enemy.

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09-03-2012, 12:34 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Jagged Ice View Post
Why is Bettman getting most of the blame? Is he really anything other than the messenger?
While I agree he shouldn't be getting as much hate as he does, at the same time, isn't he suppose to be the guy liaising between the two parties?

If so, he may not have caused the problems, but he isn't doing a great job fixing it either.

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09-03-2012, 12:47 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by danccchan View Post
While I agree he shouldn't be getting as much hate as he does, at the same time, isn't he suppose to be the guy liaising between the two parties?

If so, he may not have caused the problems, but he isn't doing a great job fixing it either.
He's not a liaison. He is the league. His job is to represent the owners and absolutely nothing else. It's completely bewildering that people will support DONALD FEHR and the things he's tried to pull but scream and cry bloody murder about Bettman. Ultimately, each of them is just the negotiator in these talks. Both are simply the chosen delegates for their respective sides, and neither should really be the target of hate or blame. They just do what their employer wants them to do.

But people get mad at traffic cops for giving them legitimate parking tickets as well. This is the same thing.

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09-03-2012, 02:44 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
He's not a liaison. He is the league. His job is to represent the owners and absolutely nothing else. It's completely bewildering that people will support DONALD FEHR and the things he's tried to pull but scream and cry bloody murder about Bettman. Ultimately, each of them is just the negotiator in these talks. Both are simply the chosen delegates for their respective sides, and neither should really be the target of hate or blame. They just do what their employer wants them to do.

But people get mad at traffic cops for giving them legitimate parking tickets as well. This is the same thing.
But traffic cops can overlook things, if they deem it reasonable. They're also not required to be public jackasses - where both Fehr and Bettman seem to think it's a requirement of the job.

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09-03-2012, 02:46 PM
  #130
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I have a question about the CBA: if HRR gets changed to, say, a 50-50 even split, and the cap has to be lowered, does that force teams to have to get rid of players? What happens to the Wild with their suddenly gigantic payroll?

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09-03-2012, 06:24 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by lostpuppysyndrome View Post
I have a question about the CBA: if HRR gets changed to, say, a 50-50 even split, and the cap has to be lowered, does that force teams to have to get rid of players? What happens to the Wild with their suddenly gigantic payroll?
Based on the last lockout, they'll do a % salary rollback, likely even with whatever % the cap is lowered.

Basically, if they follow history, it'll basically be a non-issue.


Last edited by Vashanesh: 09-03-2012 at 06:24 PM. Reason: I like to make sense
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09-03-2012, 06:30 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
He's not a liaison. He is the league. His job is to represent the owners and absolutely nothing else. It's completely bewildering that people will support DONALD FEHR and the things he's tried to pull but scream and cry bloody murder about Bettman. Ultimately, each of them is just the negotiator in these talks. Both are simply the chosen delegates for their respective sides, and neither should really be the target of hate or blame. They just do what their employer wants them to do.

But people get mad at traffic cops for giving them legitimate parking tickets as well. This is the same thing.
what has Fehr tried to pull in these talks that people need to be screaming bloody murder about? i don't care what he's done in the past, but for this talk he seems to be trying to come up with a resolution, NHL owner has dug in and are not at all willing to discuss any other alternative then players giving up money.

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09-03-2012, 06:37 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by forthewild View Post
what has Fehr tried to pull in these talks that people need to be screaming bloody murder about? i don't care what he's done in the past, but for this talk he seems to be trying to come up with a resolution, NHL owner has dug in and are not at all willing to discuss any other alternative then players giving up money.
have you looked at the proposals? Neither side is giving much right now and probably wont until the 11th hour.

The players proposals have been equally bad, if not worse, than the owners.

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09-03-2012, 07:48 PM
  #134
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Made a new avatar and user title set because of the impending lockout.

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09-03-2012, 07:49 PM
  #135
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Looks good.

Well done.

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Old
09-03-2012, 08:00 PM
  #136
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Karkat returns as soon as we get a new CBA.

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09-03-2012, 08:31 PM
  #137
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I guess there IS a plus side to the lockout.

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09-03-2012, 10:26 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
have you looked at the proposals? Neither side is giving much right now and probably wont until the 11th hour.

The players proposals have been equally bad, if not worse, than the owners.
as reported by media outlests, the players proposal hinges around revenue sharing, why do the players have to foot the bill when the NHL wrote the last CBA that they now claim is broken? in the player proposal they did give the money back, they are willing to give up some ground, they took a 24% cut last CBA, why do they have to give more back when Uncle Garry is touting record revenues?

as far as i have seen this is a one sided animal, this time around the owners are full of ****

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09-03-2012, 10:48 PM
  #139
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Karkat returns as soon as we get a new CBA.
Good. We won't have to look at him for over a year then. Not trying to be a dick.

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Old
09-04-2012, 12:28 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
I guess there IS a plus side to the lockout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WILDhockeyfan View Post
Good. We won't have to look at him for over a year then. Not trying to be a dick.
You sons of *****es.

fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu.jpg

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09-04-2012, 09:47 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by forthewild View Post
as reported by media outlests, the players proposal hinges around revenue sharing, why do the players have to foot the bill when the NHL wrote the last CBA that they now claim is broken? in the player proposal they did give the money back, they are willing to give up some ground, they took a 24% cut last CBA, why do they have to give more back when Uncle Garry is touting record revenues?

as far as i have seen this is a one sided animal, this time around the owners are full of ****
You're argument is reliant on a single non-truth - that the players "lost" the last CBA negotiations.

They didn't. They won. Big.

Their PR machine might have said otherwise, and the owners might have thought they got the upper hand at the time, but the underlying reality is that the players "won" the last CBA negotiations. They have been living large and making lots and lots of money under the current CBA. Many owners have been losing money.

Again, the players profits are several times higher than the owners profits under the current CBA. Don't confuse profits with revenue.

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09-04-2012, 10:12 AM
  #142
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Yeah, you're not going to see me siding with the league on this one. They need a salary rollback, yes, but the NHL doesn't even want to try and negotiate until the players come crawling. As it stands, Bettman is really only looking out for the top 5-10 teams, not for the league as a whole or the fans.

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09-04-2012, 10:43 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
You're argument is reliant on a single non-truth - that the players "lost" the last CBA negotiations.

They didn't. They won. Big.

Their PR machine might have said otherwise, and the owners might have thought they got the upper hand at the time, but the underlying reality is that the players "won" the last CBA negotiations. They have been living large and making lots and lots of money under the current CBA. Many owners have been losing money.

Again, the players profits are several times higher than the owners profits under the current CBA. Don't confuse profits with revenue.

this is false, while the result of the CBA has seen players making money, there is no way anyone could have known this in 2005, the result of players making that money has been a surprise to everyone including the owners.

you see player pay is tied to league revenue, it just so happen that the league exploded in revenue gains and thus the player pay did too, for all we know the revenues could have stayed flat, or even regressed in which case the players would definitely been bent over a wooden barrel.

just because we have had record revenue gains doesn't at all mean we will continue to have record revenue gains, its because of that reason the players are raking in, well that and stupid owners who shell out 17 year deal in triple digits...

and thats why its hard for me to feel sympathy for the owners, they call a 5 year contract limit in their offer (their team signs guys to 6+), they say they are broke, (parise and suter get $196,000,000, webber gets more

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09-04-2012, 11:05 AM
  #144
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There is only one reality. In that reality, the players have done much better than the owners since the CBA was started. Other hypothetical timelines don't matter.

High revenues don't mean squat if costs are just as high.

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09-04-2012, 11:08 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by forthewild View Post
as reported by media outlests, the players proposal hinges around revenue sharing
What player proposal?

The PA hasn't actually come back with a proposal in the same sense that the league has put forth two... The revenue sharing suggested by the union was their way of saying "this is our idea in how to fix what you aren't in your proposal". The so called split of HRR in their non-existent proposal was just a smoke screen, numbers game for the media to attempt to digest.

The PA keeps coming back with a list of suggestions for the league to use to improve their next proposal, not an actual counter proposal.

As stated earlier, the fact that they have not even started discussions about how to calculate HRR means that any splits are meaningless.

Basically, as soon as the PA decides to come back with a counter proposal, I doubt there will be much in the way of traction in these talks.

I think it was Bettman that said something like; It feels like we are negotiating with ourselves, and that stops now.

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09-04-2012, 11:42 AM
  #146
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The owners came out with a 25% cut in salaries on top of reduction in HRR calculation (driving that number down) and a longer RFA period (which would further reduce player salaries). It's essentially going back on contracts signed in the last couple years. That's pretty low. So the smaller market teams will lose less money and the bigger market teams will make more money. It really doesn't solve problems other than the owners of the richest teams getting richer.

Why should the NHLPA use the NHL proposal as the basis for their counter-proposal? They are using the existing CBA. Why shouldn't the owners have to counter the NHL's proposal?

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09-04-2012, 11:51 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
The owners came out with a 25% cut in salaries on top of reduction in HRR calculation (driving that number down) and a longer RFA period (which would further reduce player salaries). It's essentially going back on contracts signed in the last couple years. That's pretty low. So the smaller market teams will lose less money and the bigger market teams will make more money. It really doesn't solve problems other than the owners of the richest teams getting richer.

Why should the NHLPA use the NHL proposal as the basis for their counter-proposal? They are using the existing CBA. Why shouldn't the owners have to counter the NHL's proposal?
I'm not saying the PA should use the NHL proposal as a basis for a counter proposal. My point was to "correct" the misnomer that the NHLPA has put together a "proposal" of their own. I am pretty sure that even Fehr admitted that what they have turned over isn't a "proposal" as the league defines it.

If there had been common ground reached on the definition of HRR, I fully expected the PA to turn over a counter proposal which was basically a copy and paste of the NBA's...

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09-04-2012, 12:04 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
I'm not saying the PA should use the NHL proposal as a basis for a counter proposal. My point was to "correct" the misnomer that the NHLPA has put together a "proposal" of their own. I am pretty sure that even Fehr admitted that what they have turned over isn't a "proposal" as the league defines it.

If there had been common ground reached on the definition of HRR, I fully expected the PA to turn over a counter proposal which was basically a copy and paste of the NBA's...
Fehr said that their offer shouldn't be seen as a counter proposal because they are not even trying to work off the frame work of the original proposal. what the PA offered is a proposal, the "proposal" is what Bettman said when he said they didn't address all the issues (RFA term, UFA period) the NHLPA basically tried to remedy teams losing money.

it was a legit proposal over the biggest issue in the CBA but not a total proposal which the one owners put forth was.

the owners basically rejected that notion and went back to, "you guys need to give back a large chunk of your money to us"

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09-04-2012, 12:07 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
There is only one reality. In that reality, the players have done much better than the owners since the CBA was started. Other hypothetical timelines don't matter.

High revenues don't mean squat if costs are just as high.
in that reality the CBA was designed by the owners to **** over the players and it has ****ed over the owners, if this deal was half the players input half owner i would agree.

Given the NHL WROTE the damn CBA, its their fault if they are losing money, it would be as if you and me are making a deal, i do all the terms you end up better off and i blame you. it would be 100% my fault.

also i'm not saying players should give anything back, the players are WILLING to give money back, but the amount proposed by the owners is just plain retarded. and the bottom line is even if the players give back the proposed amount it won't fix the issue come next CBA.

Relocate, limit loophole contracts, and revenue share is what the NHL has to do.

let stupid owners go broke. plenty of examples of doing it right, plenty of doing it wrong.

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09-04-2012, 12:15 PM
  #150
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