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2012-2013 Prospect Talk PART IV

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10-17-2012, 10:29 AM
  #226
Jester9881
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So you accept that "Strome ain't no Tavares".... yet, you expect him to post Tavares like numbers in his 4th year of JR. Then, you state that certain players are leaving much to be desired.... when said players either haven't played a single game or less than a handful of them.

Seriously man.... I'd like to think you're just spewing these statements without thinking them through critically.

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10-17-2012, 11:07 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
A-HAAAAA! Gotchya - for I was pandering and gushing over the picking of
A) Fowler
B) Granlund
C) Skinner
in prelude to that draft.

At least I think I was.

Not in the mood to research it (he he). Anyhow, I thought Fowler would, if he were to somehow drop to 5, be a no-brainer. I am currently remembering that my fave forwards for 5-10 were then Granlund (reallyyyy liked the Koivuiness of that boy) and then Skinner, feeling his 70 OHL goals (POs included) were a sureshot sign of him just knowing how to be dangerous and generate offense. But you know how it is... one writes a lot in prelude to the draft, so I might be a bit fuzzy here...

Anyhow, Fowler is sufficient for proving my point.
I know many HF posters wanted other players. Again, this happens all the time. Where are all the Filatov guys? Is anyone missing Magnus Paajarvi from his draft dropping year? Granlund is intriguing but I'm still not sure about him. There's a real risk with him, and a high reward. His skating and size and style of play are enough to scare off teams. And he had a terrible WC tourney last year.

Sometimes posters are right, sometimes they aren't. It's the same for teams, scouts, etc. Except, they TYPICALLY have access to more information that some/most posters.

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Yes, but I'd have to really say that particularly Fowler and Couturier are two guys who have undergone the level of scrutinization approaching their draft date that leaves a number of people ultimately scratching their heads, both then and in hindsight. It's becoming a trend. Basically, this is when a kid has been talked about in very high tones since he was 15 or 16 and then teams get too picky and overcritical. That player may then somehow not show the all-round domination in his actual draft year, despite nonetheless having a solid season by any other player's standards. He then gets passed over in a trend that sees teams taking shinier new toys in the process, many of which only truly enter the high rank discussion in the last five months of their draft year.

We are guilty of being of these teams.
All teams are.

But players also drop for a reason. Like Schremp (my favourite such example). It works both ways.

It's easy to point at players that drop if they have success and it's easy to blame teams that take players "off the board" - but I'm not convinced either is the better strategy, not with any evidence of success over the long term.


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I don't know - it just seems like there a teams allowing themselves to be victimized by their own over-analyzation. Granted, Fowler was more extreme than Couturier, but he too entered his draft year having been talked about as a top 3 pick for three years. This trend could get more attention if guys like Forsberg or Grigorenko start making immediate noise in the manner Fowler and Couturier have, although no-one in this past draft had been talked about as long as Fowler and Couturier had been prior to theirs.
Players climb and fall every year based on consensus rankings BUT every team has their own order, and THAT ORDER probably varies significantly, ESPECIALLY outside the top 3. Zibanejad and Scheifele climb seemingly out of nowhere and sometimes it works out immediately, sometimes it takes time, sometimes it never works.

Fowler dropped a lot, yet he made the team at 18, but he's horrible defensively. So where are we now? Is he the next Marc Andre Bergeron? Phil Housley? I'm not convinced he would have been the better pick in 2010. I'm not sure I'd take Granlund over Nino TODAY either. Nor would I trade Nino for Fowler BUT I'd probably take Skinner.

And in another year or two, it might be totally different.

Quote:

I'm gonna refrain from accepting the use of Tavares' junior point droppage as an example in this case because:
A) Strome certainly ain't no Tavares and I just KNOW that you guys don't want to be claiming he is.
B) Tavares had over 70 points as a 15 year old and over 70 goals as a 16 year old.

Tavares' pre-draft CHL statistics are a thing of great exceptionalism and he never touched CHL ice again after being drafted.

Strome is in year four two seasons after being drafted.

So common' guys, let's not be using the Tavares post-16-year-old statline as an example here.
But why is it okay to compare Strome to anyone? Of course he's no Tavares but how are we sure he won't be better than Couturier? And so what if he isn't? There's a good chance Jeff Skinner will be better than everyone drafted before him.

As long as Strome makes the NYI a better team, then he was a good choice. To expect him to be the best choice at that time is futile. No team can make that claim with any regularity.

Plus, it's impossible to determine and it matters none since each player's role on their respective team has nothing to do with their potential value to another team.

Was Hedman a poor choice over Duchene? Will that opinion change in 2-3 years? Maybe, maybe not.

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At the moment, I'm sure of Strome's NHL ability, but is he going to be Pat Lafontaine or Sam Gagner??? (To be continued...)

Or Nazem Kadri???
He's not going to be Pat Lafontaine. That I'm sure of.

But it's impossible to know whether he's going to be Sam Gagner or Nazem Kadri or anyone else.
The degree of certainty varies significantly year after year, especially from the age of 18-21, as we've seen in ALL ORGANIZATIONS, not just the dysfunctional Islanders.

Wasn't Kyle Beach picked right before Tyler Myers? stupid Chicago. It wasn't long ago that even astute posters on HF, and "experts" like Bill Watters and Craig Button were claiming Tavares would be nothing special in the NHL.

There are people that would have taken Couturier over Strome, no doubt. And not just posters on message boards. But there are also posters that would have taken Filatov over Bailey.

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With no NHL to watch, I was hoping Strome would be the one to dazzle us at the OHL level this fall.

And also, neither Ullstrom or Cizikas were taken sixth overall, nor is either carrying the burden of being a scoring star, or no less than a major scoring contributor, at the NHL level.

Put differently, Strome certainly wasn't taken to be a mild-scoring, two-way player on a lower line, which would a fine, fine result for Cizikas and Ullstrom (two of the prime examples as to why I've not hesitated to give the Isles lots a support and props for their lower round drafting acumen).
Strome may yet dazzle. But it sounds like the dazzle you're looking for, as in 120+ points, leading the OHL scoring by a large margin - well, maybe that ain't going to happen. And while I was also hopeful for Strome tearing up the OHL, as Kadri did when he was returned at 19, I also realize that means NOTHING regarding how he'll play at 20 & 21.

On Ullstrom, well, he's older than even Tavares, he's FOUR YEARS older than Strome. Cizikas is TWO YEARS older than Strome.

Strome almost TRIPLED Cizikas' production at the same age in junior. He's already scored more goals that CC ever scored in a junior season.

Let's cut Strome some slack and give him time.

Strome is a highly skilled offensive player and he's going to get his points. He'll be a top 10 scorer in the OHL this year and that talent is a PART of what will make him a successful NHL player, but it's the other parts of his game that need to improve.

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Old
10-17-2012, 11:41 AM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
The size part always seemed off to me. Strome looks like a small player, much smaller that 6'1" 190. I wonder how accurate that is. I'd say he's in the 5'10-11" and 175 level based on how he looks. Not sure if it's his equipment size, skating style or the way he plays but he definitely doesn't look like a 6'1" 190lb player.

And I don't intend this to question every player's listed height/weight on hockeydb or chl.ca, etc, because that's not really my point.

I do think Strome is physically immature. He looks like a skinny teenager more than a mature adult, he doesn't have his man-strength yet. deHaan never had that when he was drafted, but he's much bigger and stronger now. So is Brock Nelson. Strome isn't there yet and that's okay.

Strome has hockey sense, puck skills and vision that you cannot teach. That's why he was drafted where he was. Whether he's able to improve his skating and strength, work hard as he matures physically, work on his conditioning - that remains to be seen. But there's no way he can compete physically the way Bailey does currently in the NHL (not that Bailey's Chara or Lucic by any stretch). Strome is still too small to be an effective NHL top six player.

But let's see how he does in camp, the whole 5 days worth of camp that the lockout may allow for, if there's a season.
I agree that he doesn't look the 6'1 192 that he's listed. I don't worry so much about the height, he's just slightly built. It's very clear that he's not a man yet, won't be for a little while longer either. He's still a teenager, but I'm very happy that he seems to be going about it the right way as a member of the Dungeon with JT. Hopefully next offseason is when it all 'clicks' and his body is able to carry the extra weight and strength better. I personally expect a little jump in that regard and he'll look like a different player by next training camp, one on the verge of making the NHL roster. I wouldn't cry if he spends time at the Bridge before he takes over the 2nd line center spot that the organization envisions from him.

Whether the lockout ends soon or not, I hope the Isles do the right thing and keep him in the OHL. I don't think the team is in desperate need of him with quite a lot of bodies seemingly ahead of him on the depth chart as well as a chance to evaluate some names that are on the proverbial bubble as to if they are a part of the future. Obviously Bailey comes to mind here as it's quickly become the 'put up or shut up' for him.

On that note, I hope the Isles keep the majority of their kids at their current levels of competition and sort it all out after the season. It could be a very interesting offseason next year with the team brimming with young talent ready to make at impact at the big league level. Maybe that's when we'll actually see a deal to unload some of our assets to nab a quality player that could fill one of our multitude of needs.

IMO, the Isles organization depth chart is 1 year away from hitting the sweet spot where there will be serious competition from the prospects with the incumbents on the NHL roster. If there is no season and we somehow get lucky in the draft and nab MacKinnon or Jones, this team could make serious noise in 2013-14 - right when it's the zero hour for the new arena. It's all apart of Wang and Snows evil genius master plan to revive this franchise.

Yeah, I seem to have munched on some serious rainbows and sun juice today.

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Old
10-17-2012, 11:54 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Sometimes posters are right, sometimes they aren't. It's the same for teams, scouts, etc. Except, they TYPICALLY have access to more information that some/most posters.
And they get paid nonetheless...

What do we get???

Quote:
Fowler dropped a lot, yet he made the team at 18, but he's horrible defensively. So where are we now? Is he the next Marc Andre Bergeron? Phil Housley? I'm not convinced he would have been the better pick in 2010. I'm not sure I'd take Granlund over Nino TODAY either. Nor would I trade Nino for Fowler BUT I'd probably take Skinner.

And in another year or two, it might be totally different.
I guess if the Isles had a longer track record of bonafide good results in the first round, I'd be less critical than I am about Snow 'n co. taking Niederreiter and Strome respectively ahead of long-term concensus players like Fowler and Couturier.

I feel much the same as you about Bailey, but in the Snow period, only Tavares has equalled or surpassed expectations.

Granted, the rest are still blank sheets and have time. I still have hope for Bailey and feel last season for Niederreiter will end up being nothing more than a circumstance-filled anomaly when all is said and done, but it's natural to feel a sense of wonderment as to why our staff chose such players while higher-ranked guys slipped; guys who possessed certain undeniable skills and physical attributes and who immediately were able to make and impact the rosters of the teams that did pick them - teams that don't necessarily have a reputation for rushing prospects, no less.

Now, Strome may be making an impact sooner than later, but I'm not getting that indication after the first dozen games in this OHL season.

I would like to be, i.e. that's the crux of my gripe.

Quote:
But why is it okay to compare Strome to anyone? Of course he's no Tavares but how are we sure he won't be better than Couturier? And so what if he isn't? There's a good chance Jeff Skinner will be better than everyone drafted before him.
People are simply saying that I shouldn't be unimpressed with Strome's stats this season because hey, look, Tavares also saw his stats drop after his biggest OHL season and hey, he eventually had a great clip when he went from a poor team to a good team in his draft year.

Sorry, but I don't see where that applies whatsoever. Tavares is an exceptional, exceptional talent and all these things happened before he even got drafted. I think we're more than privy to expect a lot from a guy like Strome in his fourth year of juniors, two years after his drafting, having been drafted ahead of a more highly touted guy based on his offensive merits.

It's not rocket science here...

Quote:
As long as Strome makes the NYI a better team, then he was a good choice. To expect him to be the best choice at that time is futile. No team can make that claim with any regularity.
I'm less worried about other teams getting it right and more worried about us getting it right, especially since we're not the busiest on the UFA market or in player acquisition whatsoever.

Quote:
Was Hedman a poor choice over Duchene? Will that opinion change in 2-3 years? Maybe, maybe not.
This is off topic, but thank goodness we took Tavares over those two!

Quote:
He's not going to be Pat Lafontaine. That I'm sure of.
Ashame, this is the player most popped into my head when watching the dazzling YouTube clips in his draft year.

I got the impression exactly THAT's the type of guy they project him to be and why they skipped on a Couturier or Hamilton.

Quote:
And while I was also hopeful for Strome tearing up the OHL, as Kadri did when he was returned at 19, I also realize that means NOTHING regarding how he'll play at 20 & 21.
Agreed, as I've stated in a few of these posts.

Going back to the beginning, there were a few posters who simply felt I wasn't being fair in being unimpressed with Strome's 6 points in the first 5 games.

Et alors, nous avons maintenant cette longue discussion.

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Old
10-17-2012, 11:56 AM
  #230
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I'm not worried about Ryan Strome's size. He has a nice frame, and his dad was pretty filled out when we saw him as Strome got drafted, that's always a good indicator.

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10-17-2012, 12:02 PM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Hmmm, I kind of feel like this discussion began because folks were interested in changing my opinion, not necessarily the other way around.

I mean, heck, the discussion was opened by no less than yourself responding to me simply denoting that I was disappointed with Strome's 6 points in 5 games.

As for raising the bar, that's usually coming from those expecting more from a guy - or at least asking for higher standards of rating a guy in light of his drafting and expectations - than those who defend the level a player is currently at as being sufficient enough to avoid any reasonable point of disappointment.
Yes, the whole argument started because I thought you sounded ridiculous, expressing disappointment in a player's 5-game point total. Nugent-Hopkins hasn't scored a point in 2 games in the AHL... how disappointing. The thing that RNH and Strome's numbers having in common: they don't mean ****. Scoring 100 points in Niagara does nothing to help Strome at the NHL level next year/this year. Would I like for him to be able to round out his game while leading the league in scoring? Of course. But I'm not going to be disappointed, or even care if he doesn't. He's proven he can do it twice(he was on pace for 96 last year had he played the same amount of games), what does doing it or not doing it a third time prove?

Do me a favor. Watch Strome play. If you are still disappointed with how he looks, I'll at least respect your opinion since you won't be basing it on points.

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10-17-2012, 12:35 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Yes, the whole argument started because I thought you sounded ridiculous, expressing disappointment in a player's 5-game point total. Nugent-Hopkins hasn't scored a point in 2 games in the AHL... how disappointing. The thing that RNH and Strome's numbers having in common: they don't mean ****. Scoring 100 points in Niagara does nothing to help Strome at the NHL level next year/this year. Would I like for him to be able to round out his game while leading the league in scoring? Of course. But I'm not going to be disappointed, or even care if he doesn't. He's proven he can do it twice(he was on pace for 96 last year had he played the same amount of games), what does doing it or not doing it a third time prove?

Do me a favor. Watch Strome play. If you are still disappointed with how he looks, I'll at least respect your opinion since you won't be basing it on points.
My reasons for not sharing your enthusiasm have been stated and explained, and my reason/feeling for disappointment is perfectly legitimate.

Perfectly legitimate.

And on top of it all, nothing more than fan chatter.

No need to get yourself all wound up like this.

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10-17-2012, 12:40 PM
  #233
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Strome>Gretzky

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10-17-2012, 12:56 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
My reasons for not sharing your enthusiasm have been stated and explained, and my reason/feeling for disappointment is perfectly legitimate.

Perfectly legitimate.

And on top of it all, nothing more than fan chatter.

No need to get yourself all wound up like this.
I apologize...


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10-17-2012, 01:14 PM
  #235
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I'm not concerned with Strome honestly, his bread and butter has always been his vision and slick hands. Tavares came into the league those two things as well and struggle a little bit. In his third year though, his skating and strength improved and it did wonders. Strome needs time to do the same.

***Disclaimer*** I'm not comparing Strome and JT talentwise or statistically, I'm just comparing their development curves.

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10-17-2012, 01:52 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by seafoam View Post
I'm not concerned with Strome honestly, his bread and butter has always been his vision and slick hands. Tavares came into the league those two things as well and struggle a little bit. In his third year though, his skating and strength improved and it did wonders. Strome needs time to do the same.

***Disclaimer*** I'm not comparing Strome and JT talentwise or statistically, I'm just comparing their development curves.
I was happy we drafted Strome, though on draft day, I was more of a Doug Hamilton fan. BUT, once he became an Islander, I was very happy to have him in the stable of prospects. The possibilities of him riding shotgun w/Tavares, OR, centering one of our excellent young forward prospects, is quite exciting. I can see a future of Tavares centering Niederreiter and Strome centering Kabanov (or Nelson, or Sundstrom, or Ullstrom, or, etc). Very excited about the future of Isle's prospects.

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10-17-2012, 02:06 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Granted, the rest are still blank sheets and have time. I still have hope for Bailey and feel last season for Niederreiter will end up being nothing more than a circumstance-filled anomaly when all is said and done, but it's natural to feel a sense of wonderment as to why our staff chose such players while higher-ranked guys slipped; guys who possessed certain undeniable skills and physical attributes and who immediately were able to make and impact the rosters of the teams that did pick them - teams that don't necessarily have a reputation for rushing prospects, no less.
I predicted Nino would have a strong year in the AHL (yes, before the season started). He's got too many tools to fail, he was just in the wrong league last year.

NHL size, NHL shot, works hard. He'll be a really good NHL player one day, maybe a year or two from now.

Quote:
Now, Strome may be making an impact sooner than later, but I'm not getting that indication after the first dozen games in this OHL season.

People are simply saying that I shouldn't be unimpressed with Strome's stats this season because hey, look, Tavares also saw his stats drop after his biggest OHL season and hey, he eventually had a great clip when he went from a poor team to a good team in his draft year.
You are in your right to be unimpressed. Statistically, he hasn't been impressive last year OR this year (albeit it's a really small sample size, on a really bad Niagara team, and he's still top 10 in the OHL)

Given the choice, we ALL would like to see Strome DOMINATE the league at his age, with the potential that 100pts at 17 would have suggested. And that isn't happening and not likely to happen.

It's fair that you are unimpressed. But I don't think he's producing at a rate that would mean DISAPPOINTMENT either. He's somewhere in the middle.

Quote:
This is off topic, but thank goodness we took Tavares over those two!
As someone who voted "Duchene" on draft day, I'm relieved as well.

Bob McKenzie was asked about Connor McDavid who's ripping up the OHL at 15, and Crosby said that he (McDavid) reminds Crosby of HIMSELF! at that age.

The radio host (TSN radio) asked Mack if McDavid would be "generational" like Crosby or "less so" like Tavares, who was also highly regarded at that age.

Interesting how McKenzie spent a good amount of time explaining that JT should not be underestimated and that his skating and strength have improved leaps and bounds since his draft year and that he's got a long way to go before he reaches his potential. Which was nice to hear. I've been preaching about that on this board and the main board for a long time because it bothers me that JT is still under-appreciated and underestimated by MANY in hockey.

McKenzie also agreed McDavid was special and then said "hey, in three years though, I'm sure scouts will pick his game apart, just like they did with Tavares and others, after being under a microscope for all that time"

And you're right, that happens all the time. But SOMETIMES, they are right.

Quote:

Ashame, this is the player most popped into my head when watching the dazzling YouTube clips in his draft year.

I got the impression exactly THAT's the type of guy they project him to be and why they skipped on a Couturier or Hamilton.
I doubt anyone projected Strome to be at Lafontaine's level, the guy who scored over 100 goals in his last year of junior.

Yes, they might have a had a similar youtube highlight reel (well, if Al Gore had that in his basement in 1982) and they are both small-ish, right hand shot, offensive centres - but I think that's where the comparisons to Lafontaine END. There are dozens of small offensive centres coming into the NHL every year that aren't Lafontaine.

Let's not set the bar that high for Strome or the disappointment machine will live forever.
Hope - yes.
Expect - no.

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10-17-2012, 02:31 PM
  #238
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I doubt anyone projected Strome to be at Lafontaine's level, the guy who scored over 100 goals in his last year of junior.
I don't think LaFontaine, playing the way he played, would last 10 years in the league the way hockey is now played. I don't think Strome would last 3 years playing like that.

The only normal sized player in the league who plays the body-shielding rush, drive to the net with speed game that LaFontaine played is Crosby. And we see how that's worked for him, lately.

That is not to compare Strome's talent to Crosby and LaFontaine. (He certainly lacks both the speed and strength.) But it takes more than mere puck skills, speed and creativity to play like that. It takes a complete lack of concern for self preservation.

The player we should compare Strome to is Brad Richards. They both play the same sort of game, and have similar strengths and weaknesses. Richards tore up the QMJHL the 2nd year after his draft year. Of course, the OHL in 2012 is far superior to the QMJHL in 2000. So...

Cheers,

Dan-o

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10-17-2012, 02:35 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Fair enough - his 14 points in 11 games don't scream of dominance, but are actually a better clip than i.e. when I first started griping about things when he had six points in five games.

I still think it's on par to think that a slighter OHL guy picked to be a scorer at the NHL level should be capable of 100 points in 55 games of his fourth junior season, regardless of what other parts of his game he's working on and whether or not his team is one of the stronger clubs in the league.

Again, he's got lots of time this season (should the Isles leave him there in the case of the league resuming play) and maybe those offensive numbers will jump up if indeed he is traded in the course of the season.

Here's hoping he's skating for Canada at the WJC.
Why 100 points? That's such an arbitrary number. Is there some rule of OHL players in their 4th year having particularly high success odds if they hit at least 100 points? Like Dibo or Schremp did?

If a guy can be top 10 in scoring while learning how to actually win games, I'd rather him doing that than caring about whether he hits some arbitary point total.

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10-17-2012, 02:51 PM
  #240
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Rakhshani with a three point night today with HV71, very impressive his season in the SEL.

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10-17-2012, 04:21 PM
  #241
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Rakhshani with a three point night today with HV71, very impressive his season in the SEL.
that's nice to hear. Hopefully he continues to improve and gets a chance to make the team at some point. Always like Rakh, but never sure he was good enough to be an effective NHL player. Time will tell.

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Why 100 points? That's such an arbitrary number. Is there some rule of OHL players in their 4th year having particularly high success odds if they hit at least 100 points? Like Dibo or Schremp did?

If a guy can be top 10 in scoring while learning how to actually win games, I'd rather him doing that than caring about whether he hits some arbitary point total.
I think his point is that Strome should be really separating himself, statistically, from other players. Based on the amount of points he put up in his draft year, Chapin (and others, myself included to be honest) were HOPING FOR and somewhat EXPECTING Strome to build on those numbers and show that he'd out-grown the OHL by now. Whether that's 100pts, 97pts or 140pts isn't really the point. It's about Strome showing, at least OFFENSIVELY (which is his defining attribute, the reason why he was chosen at #5), he should be outright dominating at this level. And he isn't.

So I see that point.

But I do agree that it by no means predicts future success, especially for a player like Strome. The only way a guy like Strome can succeed at the NHL level is if he manages to adjust his game to limit his weaknesses while taking advantage of his strengths.

Schremp was not able to produce enough offense to make up for the fact that he was lazy, small, weak on the puck.
Kadri's looking the same.

DiBo had great stats his last year, but wasn't able to translate even to AHL success, relatively speaking.

Tavares could only have become the player he is (and will be) if he became stronger and faster and committed to better all-around play.

Strome is much the same. He still needs to improve the speed/strength/agility as he matures physically AND he must commit to being an all-around player (which time will tell). I believe the Isles are LEAST-worried about his offense, since he's proven to be able to score in junior, even at the WJC.

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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
I don't think LaFontaine, playing the way he played, would last 10 years in the league the way hockey is now played. I don't think Strome would last 3 years playing like that.

The only normal sized player in the league who plays the body-shielding rush, drive to the net with speed game that LaFontaine played is Crosby. And we see how that's worked for him, lately.

That is not to compare Strome's talent to Crosby and LaFontaine. (He certainly lacks both the speed and strength.) But it takes more than mere puck skills, speed and creativity to play like that. It takes a complete lack of concern for self preservation.

The player we should compare Strome to is Brad Richards. They both play the same sort of game, and have similar strengths and weaknesses. Richards tore up the QMJHL the 2nd year after his draft year. Of course, the OHL in 2012 is far superior to the QMJHL in 2000. So...

Cheers,

Dan-o
I don't know that hockey is played much differently than when Lafontaine played, despite what many people believe. I'm pretty sure Lafontaine would be right there with Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin/Sedins/Stamkos/Tavares in terms of production level and on-ice ability - but I understand that's not really your point.

Lafontaine suffered from the shots to the head as much as anyone, including Sid and many others. I haven't seen enough of Strome to suggest he needs to worry about that. Certainly that level of self-awareness is something a player needs to adjust to, and some do very well, while others don't. Frans Nielsen used to get HAMMERED with big hits in his early NHL days. So did AMac. Kenny Jonsson was notorious for putting himself in a position to get drilled. Nielsen's really been much better at avoiding those over the past few seasons though, and has still remained effective in his role.

We shall see how Strome adjusts.

But to me, that's a huge step in the adjustment to the pro game that you cannot really learn in the minors or in junior. Nino saw that last year with his big concussion hit in Minnesota. Bailey was able to avoid the HUGE hit but he was a completely ineffective perimeter player at 18 & 19. Even Tavares would take a lot of punishment as a rookie, yet now he's the opposite of that where he shields the puck incredibly well while driving to the net.

I like the Richards comparison but Strome's got a long way to go before we can even have that discussion. I think he'll need some AHL time to be honest. And I know many will believe that means he's a bust, but I think it's going to work out that way based on where Strome is now and what he'll need to be to be a productive top six NHL player.

Let's leave draft position and scoring stats at 18 out of the picture. Look at where he's at and I think the answer is pretty obvious, as it was for Nino last year and from Bailey a few years back. So anything can happen.

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10-17-2012, 06:56 PM
  #242
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I think his point is that Strome should be really separating himself, statistically, from other players. Based on the amount of points he put up in his draft year, Chapin (and others, myself included to be honest) were HOPING FOR and somewhat EXPECTING Strome to build on those numbers and show that he'd out-grown the OHL by now. Whether that's 100pts, 97pts or 140pts isn't really the point. It's about Strome showing, at least OFFENSIVELY (which is his defining attribute, the reason why he was chosen at #5), he should be outright dominating at this level. And he isn't.

So I see that point.

But I do agree that it by no means predicts future success, especially for a player like Strome. The only way a guy like Strome can succeed at the NHL level is if he manages to adjust his game to limit his weaknesses while taking advantage of his strengths.

Schremp was not able to produce enough offense to make up for the fact that he was lazy, small, weak on the puck.
Kadri's looking the same.

DiBo had great stats his last year, but wasn't able to translate even to AHL success, relatively speaking.

Tavares could only have become the player he is (and will be) if he became stronger and faster and committed to better all-around play.

Strome is much the same. He still needs to improve the speed/strength/agility as he matures physically AND he must commit to being an all-around player (which time will tell). I believe the Isles are LEAST-worried about his offense, since he's proven to be able to score in junior, even at the WJC.
Yeah, and on one hand I get what the two of you are saying, but I think it's poor reasoning. Obviously it'd be nice to see the numbers go up, but there's not really a lot of point. IMO, once you are in the 1.25-1.5ish, you're scoring enough that I'm really not concerned with your ability to score at that level, and I become far more interested in what you are doing to help make your team better. Really, when you get down to it, is scoring 2 ppg really going to make that big of a difference in the standings than scoring 1.5 ppg? Why are we so focused on seeing him score more, when scoring is the least of the concerns when it comes to his play?

Significant improvements to his all around game, without sacrificing his ability to score at what is already a high pace, indicates a significant improvement in his play. Even if his numbers don't also improve. JT's stats took a hit when he started focusing on becoming a better rounded player. Is it really so crazy that Strome's don't improve hugely when he does the same?

I'm not saying Strome doesn't still have a lot to prove before he's ready for the NHL. I am however saying, that his current scoring output is pretty low on what I feel may hold him back at the NHL level. But that he's focusing on those aspects more, is encouraging. One of the major issues with Schremp's development, was he only ever focused on developing what worked at the OHL level, but doesn't translate to being a good NHL player. So he had insane stats that some may find encouraging and evidence of domination. However, had he sacrificed his OHL stats, and focused on his weak points instead, his story may have turned out differently.


Last edited by Seph: 10-17-2012 at 07:01 PM.
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10-17-2012, 07:05 PM
  #243
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Yeah, and on one hand I get what the two of you are saying, but I think it's poor reasoning. Obviously it'd be nice to see the numbers go up, but there's not really a lot of point. IMO, once you are in the 1.25-1.5ish, you're scoring enough that I'm really not concerned with your ability to score at that level, and I become far more interested in what you are doing to help make your team better. Really, when you get down to it, is scoring 2 ppg really going to make that big of a difference in the standings than scoring 1.5 ppg? Why are we so focused on seeing him score more, when scoring is the least of the concerns when it comes to his play?

Significant improvements to his all around game, without sacrificing his ability to score at what is already a high pace, indicates a significant improvement in his play. Even if his numbers don't also improve. JT's stats took a hit when he started focusing on becoming a better rounded player. Is it really so crazy that Strome's don't improve hugely when he does the same?

I'm not saying Strome doesn't still have a lot to prove before he's ready for the NHL. I am however saying, that his current scoring output is pretty low on what I feel may hold him back at the NHL level. But that he's focusing on those aspects more, is encouraging. One of the major issues with Schremp's development, was he only ever focused on developing what worked at the OHL level, but doesn't translate to being a good NHL player. So he had insane stats, but had he sacrificed his OHL stats, and focused on his weak points instead, his story may have turned out differently.
this is exactly how I feel about Strome. I see Chapin's point though, and I think he's being beat-on a bit unfairly since some posters feel it's an unfair criticism of Strome which I don't think it is. And in the end, it's impossible to really determine exactly how he's developing without watching a lot of the Niagara games, consecutively, and even harder unless we'd seen a few of his games last year.

Going on stats alone is merely ONE way to assess his play but generally it's very misguided.

Tavares is a great example of a player who's stats say very little about how effective he is on the ice and how valuable he is to the team. And there are very few hockey people that have seen enough NYI games to understand this so I can imagine how much this is compounded when it comes to junior players.

Regardless. I hate this lockout crap. I hope they play this year.

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10-17-2012, 07:07 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
Yeah, and on one hand I get what the two of you are saying, but I think it's poor reasoning. Obviously it'd be nice to see the numbers go up, but there's not really a lot of point. IMO, once you are in the 1.25-1.5ish, you're scoring enough that I'm really not concerned with your ability to score at that level, and I become far more interested in what you are doing to help make your team better. Really, when you get down to it, is scoring 2 ppg really going to make that big of a difference in the standings than scoring 1.5 ppg? Why are we so focused on seeing him score more, when scoring is the least of the concerns when it comes to his play?

Significant improvements to his all around game, without sacrificing his ability to score at what is already a high pace, indicates a significant improvement in his play. Even if his numbers don't also improve. JT's stats took a hit when he started focusing on becoming a better rounded player. Is it really so crazy that Strome's don't improve hugely when he does the same?

I'm not saying Strome doesn't still have a lot to prove before he's ready for the NHL. I am however saying, that his current scoring output is pretty low on what I feel may hold him back at the NHL level. But that he's focusing on those aspects more, is encouraging. One of the major issues with Schremp's development, was he only ever focused on developing what worked at the OHL level, but doesn't translate to being a good NHL player. So he had insane stats that some may find encouraging and evidence of domination. However, had he sacrificed his OHL stats, and focused on his weak points instead, his story may have turned out differently.
Good post and I'm in agreement. Here are two posts from someone in the Prospects section that highlight this sentiment.

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Originally Posted by 1972 View Post
He is rounding out his complete game, focusing more on his own zone and play away from the puck. He still has the potential to be a 1st line foward in the NHL. I think he could use the entire year in junior and make the jump next year.
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I have seasons so I have watched him about 50 times over the last 2.5 years. He has really focused on his play away from the puck this year, we all know that he has elite offensive skills and that the points will happen so I wouldnt really worry about his point totals, sometimes trys to do to much with the puck.
I'm still happy with his development.

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10-17-2012, 10:32 PM
  #245
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Regardless. I hate this lockout crap. I hope they play this year.
I think this is one thing we can all agree on

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10-18-2012, 06:29 AM
  #246
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10-18-2012, 07:19 AM
  #247
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The guy Strome has always reminded me of is Claude Giroux. Similar styles, frames, skating. And Grioux's CHL point production kind of flattened out after his draft year, similar to Strome. I think it could have something to do with being a hyper-creative, skilled player who coaches let roam free a bit when they're 16 and 17, but then after being drafted they start focusing on other things than scoring and their production "suffers" a bit.

Based on the very little I've seen of Strome actually playing hockey in the WJC, I'm not too worried. His skills and his sense seem top notch.

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10-18-2012, 07:52 AM
  #248
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I apologize...



Accepted.

We've all been around these boards long enough to know that there's always somebody having a notion that simply irks us. I realize mine is irking a number of our fine posters here.

Still, there's one other thing that I wanted to touch on:
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
You realize that Strome right now is ahead of guys like Scheifele, Galchenyuk, Gaunce, Faksa, McDavid, Monahan, and whatever other top prospect you want to look for.
I don't necessarily think this says a whole lot in light of what my concern at hand is. McDavid is several years away from his draft and Monohan is one of the top guys for this year's draft. Neither has been drafted, or is in his 4th year of CHL play. Faksa and Gaunce were first taken last summer and weren't also weren't taken nearly as high as Strome. Especially Gaunce is not really seen as being an offensive weapon in the class of a Strome. He went where he did for other reasons.

Scheifele's first overall OHL season was his draft year and let's been honest, he was the 'reach' in the top ten, if not Zibanejad at 6. In anything, he and Strome are somewhat comparable in expectations, but I'm thinking just about anybody in the know is gonna tell us that they expect Strome to fill more of a scoring role at the NHL level.

Galchenyuk is a guy who I thoroughly expect to be better than Strome at some point, but he too is actually only in his second 'full' season of OHL play, coming off what was more or less a lost year and the always tough ACL tear.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think it is more than fair to at least want to see more from him than his peers. We should think that excelling at this point is the next stage. We shouldn't necessarily be holding him to the standards of guys who, quite honestly, haven't been taken for the reasons and with the expectations he has.

With the exception of maybe Galchenyuk, who doesn't yet have Strome's calling card or comparative stats, I fully expect Strome to be a higher impact player than any of the drafted players you mentioned.

I really want and expect more out of him than his current drafted OHL peers, most of whom are not skating in their 4th season of CHL play.


Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 10-18-2012 at 08:22 AM.
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10-18-2012, 07:55 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by doublechili View Post
The guy Strome has always reminded me of is Claude Giroux. Similar styles, frames, skating. And Grioux's CHL point production kind of flattened out after his draft year, similar to Strome. I think it could have something to do with being a hyper-creative, skilled player who coaches let roam free a bit when they're 16 and 17, but then after being drafted they start focusing on other things than scoring and their production "suffers" a bit.
Like, would soooooo settle for this.

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10-18-2012, 08:12 AM
  #250
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Yeah, and on one hand I get what the two of you are saying, but I think it's poor reasoning. Obviously it'd be nice to see the numbers go up, but there's not really a lot of point. IMO, once you are in the 1.25-1.5ish, you're scoring enough that I'm really not concerned with your ability to score at that level, and I become far more interested in what you are doing to help make your team better. Really, when you get down to it, is scoring 2 ppg really going to make that big of a difference in the standings than scoring 1.5 ppg? Why are we so focused on seeing him score more, when scoring is the least of the concerns when it comes to his play?
You gotta understand, it's not so much a wish for stats just for the stake of stats - as if that's a say all, end all. Naturally, I'm very interested in him working on everything else and can acknowledge that he's not exactly playing with a championship favorite.

On the other hand, I don't think his simply being in line with his top scoring peers in the OHL is sufficient enough, because he's older than most of them, more experienced than most of them and was taken high in the draft with his offensive talents being the meat and bones of his draftspot. Since, although I like him, I felt he was a pick that had to be viewed a bit sceptically and placed in the 'above average risk' category due to a lack of God-given bodily size, presence and speed as well as only one I-just-first-arrived-in-my-draft-year offensive season (however impressive), which I know some scouts are always a bit hesitant about, it should be our understanding that he has the hands, in-game sense, intelligence, maturity, and wherewithall to be excelling at this point - while incorporating things than need work - rather than just trucking along nicely.

At this point, I'd love to be a fly on the wall at one of the meetings where Snow gets together with all the scouts and talks about their own prospects and what their takes are. I'd be real curious to see if they feel Strome is right where he should be or if he's not on track with what they were expecting.

Yep, not gonna happen...

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