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2012-2013 Prospect Talk PART IV

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Old
10-20-2012, 12:28 AM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Now, I know you love prospects - and especially bluechippers - so I'll make this observation:
If #7 2011 pick (with all-round game his calling card) Mark Scheifele can be leading the OHL with 19 points in 11 games in his third OHL season, I'd have thought that #5 2011 pick (with pure offensive instincts and dynamism as his calling card) Ryan Strome could have say 25 points in 12 games in his fourth OHL season.
Are you being serious? Or are you making an assumption that this is taking place in perfectly equal situations?

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10-20-2012, 02:14 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
agreed on both counts.

McDavid will be a very special player. I'd say he is the best player on the ice and it's shocking that he's just 15. His linemate is FIVE YEARS OLDER than him. Incredible ability to skate and stickhandle at high speed with strength and desire and vision. Wow.

Pelech scored a pretty nice PP goal but he doesn't play an offensive game (though he does play in offensive situations on Erie). Bit of an awkward skater, needs to improve his footwork and quickness as he gets bigger but he looks pretty damn good out there. The announcers were pretty impressed with him and he's relied on heavily, especially defensively. Nice player.
Takes short shifts I noticed regarding Pelech and McDavid was on the ice for key faceoffs and situations even in OT as a 15 year old, which was impressive.

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10-20-2012, 06:53 AM
  #278
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In case anyone missed last night's Erie-London game, replays on NHL
Network today at 7AM and 3 PM.

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10-20-2012, 08:38 AM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
Just wondering what you people think of Kabanov so far in the AHL?
I only caught the 2nd game of the season. Although it's just the early going, I like what I saw in game 2 and read after game 1. He has good speed, battles hard along the board and has nice skillset.

He looked more comfortable then his fellow rookies, Nelson and Nino.

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Old
10-20-2012, 08:40 AM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Observations were made about 6 points in 5 games.

Now, I know you love prospects - and especially bluechippers - so I'll make this observation:
If #7 2011 pick (with all-round game his calling card) Mark Scheifele can be leading the OHL with 19 points in 11 games in his third OHL season, I'd have thought that #5 2011 pick (with pure offensive instincts and dynamism as his calling card) Ryan Strome could have say 25 points in 12 games in his fourth OHL season.

It's ultimately relative, but I think I'm fair in expecting, well, what Redbull wrote above.
Chapin, I generally really respect your knowledge of prospects, and love reading your posts on the euro prospects. However, if you think Scheifele's calling card is all around game, you're nuts. He was drsfted for his offensive upside, and remains a primarily offensive minded forward.

Also, if now Strome needs to score at 150 point pace just because Scheifele and Hall both had a 6 point night piling on points as the first place Volts destroyed the last place 67s, then yeah, I would say that is an unfair expectation. I mean, just a couple days ago Strome was outscoring scheifele, but that still was nothing of note, so this argument seems particularly weak.


Last edited by Seph: 10-20-2012 at 08:47 AM.
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Old
10-20-2012, 11:11 AM
  #281
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I'm not worried about Strome's total points. Niagara lost a lot of scoring at the wings so
he may get less assists. What I do want to see is an increase in goals and so far he is at
a career best pace though it's still early. As PW Junior has pointed out leave him in junior and
there is really no need to even bring him to camp since there would be little time and no
pre season games. His strength and skating are not there yet. Let him get another summer of working out with Tavares group.

Konk made great points in his post (271). Why is there any thoughts here of moving Strome to the wing?
I want my most skilled players in the middle and his all around game is coming around so I'm happy with his progress. The more time you take with Strome the better off the Islanders will be.


Last edited by Degeneration Rex: 10-20-2012 at 11:18 AM.
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Old
10-20-2012, 01:18 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Degeneration Rex View Post
Friday
Bathurst 5, Cape Breton 3-Leduc, -3.
Erie 3, London 2 (SO)-Pelech, 1 goal.
Guelph 6, Sarnia 3-Pedan, 1 goal.
Edmonton 5, Moose Jaw 1-Reinhart, + 1.
Spokane 2, Seattle 1-Kichton, + 1.
Notre Dame 4, Minnesota-Duluth 1-Russo, 1 goal, Lee 1 assist.
Denver 5, UMass-Lowell 1-Mayfield- + 1.
I haven't watched him play at all, but his +/- has been beyond brutal thus far in the season. Practically his whole team is in the minus, but he is tied for the worst.

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Old
10-20-2012, 01:40 PM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandalay View Post
Are you being serious? Or are you making an assumption that this is taking place in perfectly equal situations?
Exactly ! Strome has 16 points for Niagara in 12 games. The other 3 centers have 14 points combined. Besides Strome, Hamilton and Ritchie, nobody else is averaging a point a game. Niagara is not a good OR high scoring team. Strome and Sciefele are dealing with different situations. 3 double digit (points) players on Niagara, 6 on Barrie.

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10-20-2012, 03:15 PM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
I haven't watched him play at all, but his +/- has been beyond brutal thus far in the season. Practically his whole team is in the minus, but he is tied for the worst.
Reminds me of Jurcina

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Old
10-20-2012, 10:05 PM
  #285
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Saturday
Windsor 3, Erie 2-Pelech, assist.
Niagara 4, Kingston 2-Strome, assist, Graham, Theoret, no points.
Guelph 8, Saginaw 5-Pedan, 2 assists.
Edmonton 4, Medicine Hat 2-Reinhart, + 1.
Spokane 3, Prince George 2-Kichton, even.
Denver 5, Air Force 2-Mayfield, 1 assist, + 2.


Last edited by Degeneration Rex: 10-21-2012 at 12:43 AM.
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Old
10-20-2012, 10:05 PM
  #286
Chapin Landvogt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Degeneration Rex View Post
Konk made great points in his post (271). Why is there any thoughts here of moving Strome to the wing? I want my most skilled players in the middle and his all around game is coming around so I'm happy with his progress. The more time you take with Strome the better off the Islanders will be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konk
What talk? From whom? HFers? There is no talk from the organization to move Strome, a natural center, to the wing. Strome hasn't played wing nor do the Islanders plan on moving him there from all indications.
Gentlemen, we currently have no less than the U25 center options of Tavares, Bailey, Strome, Nelson, Cizikas, Lee and perhaps even Ullstrom and Sundstrom in the system. Several have already played on the wing at college, in the AHL or even in the NHL. There are lots of young bodies there and not all of them are going to be making it to the Islanders as a center. In addition, all of them, with the exception of maybe Cizikas, are as big as or bigger than Strome and Strome's skating doesn't (yet) necessarily separate him from the rest.

Now, if Tavares and Strome are the franchise's two biggest offensive talents (at least in that group, if not overall), it's far from beyond reason that there could be consideration about putting them on the same line at some point. Which, in that scenario, of the two would you expect to be playing on the wing?

I'm not even quite sure why anyone would be motivated to take me to task for mentioning this option?


Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 10-20-2012 at 10:38 PM.
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Old
10-20-2012, 10:36 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandalay View Post
Are you being serious? Or are you making an assumption that this is taking place in perfectly equal situations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph
However, if you think Scheifele's calling card is all around game, you're nuts. He was drsfted for his offensive upside, and remains a primarily offensive minded forward.

Also, if now Strome needs to score at 150 point pace just because Scheifele and Hall both had a 6 point night piling on points as the first place Volts destroyed the last place 67s, then yeah, I would say that is an unfair expectation. I mean, just a couple days ago Strome was outscoring scheifele, but that still was nothing of note, so this argument seems particularly weak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott99
Exactly ! Strome has 16 points for Niagara in 12 games. The other 3 centers have 14 points combined. Besides Strome, Hamilton and Ritchie, nobody else is averaging a point a game. Niagara is not a good OR high scoring team. Strome and Sciefele are dealing with different situations. 3 double digit (points) players on Niagara, 6 on Barrie.
I wrote:
<<<
If #7 2011 pick (with all-round game his calling card) Mark Scheifele can be leading the OHL with 19 points in 11 games in his third OHL season, I'd have thought that #5 2011 pick (with pure offensive instincts and dynamism as his calling card) Ryan Strome could have say 25 points in 12 games in his fourth OHL season.
<<<

I stick by it.

If, in this young season, you folks haven't felt you'd like to be seeing a better statistical output from the most experienced top 5 pick still playing OHL hockey - no matter what the circumstances - that's absolutely your perrogative.

But I really can't believe the energy - and even spite - some folks in this thread have been investing in trying to make a guy feel foolish, if not down right ridiculous, for expecting and wanting more of the guy who certainly is our top offensive prospect outside of the AHL/NHL, if not overall. It is not an unreasonable want or expectation.

I've concurred that this ultimately says nothing about the future he can have. I've concurred that the season is young and I certainly hope for more, thinking it's very possibe. I would be very excited about seeing how he'd play if traded to a contender.

I want to see the kid excel. I thought he had what it takes to excel and separate himself from the competition (perhaps even considerably) at this point in time.

All in all, the 'discussion' has clearly run its course.

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Old
10-20-2012, 11:10 PM
  #288
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Nothing wrong with having high expectations for a top prospect.

Within reason

That's where you fail

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Old
10-20-2012, 11:23 PM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Degeneration Rex View Post
Saturday
Windsor 3, Erie 2-Pelech, assist.
Niagara 4, Kingston 2-Strome, assist, Graham, Theoret, no points.
Guelph 8, Saginaw 5-Pedan, 2 assists.
Pelech is turning into more of an offensive force than I expected. Add solid D play, and we may have gotten a steal. Maybe even more offensively gifted than we assumed, and more offensively gifted than Reinhart.

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Old
10-20-2012, 11:28 PM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
All in all, the 'discussion' has clearly run its course.
It's the lockout. Makes us all crazy.

Some here act like they'd be outright disappointed if Strome had 25 pts in 12 games.

Let's all agree that for an offensive forward, more points is (generally) better than less points and does not (necessarily) have to come at the expense of better all-around play (not unlike Tavares last season, who improved in ALL areas. And yes, Strome is NOT Tavares and the CHL is NOT the NHL) - and yes, this in NO WAY predicts Strome's future.

This discussion should never have been a discussion.

By now, we should have:
- re-buried DiPietro for another season
- praised Tavares for a hot start
- not missed Parenteau
- cursed out Snow & Wang for cap circumvention, by bringing in Richard Park and Andy Hilbert and Freddy Meyer and Bruno Gervais for $1MM each with huge bonuses if the NYI go to the finals this year.
- complained about three non-trades and non-signings that would have made NYI a "lock for 8th place" - over the NYR and NJD for sure

and a few more things unrelated to Gary
"The Count" Bettman and Donald FearMe Fehr

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Old
10-21-2012, 10:29 AM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
Nothing wrong with having high expectations for a top prospect.

Within reason

That's where you fail
Give it a break Jester.

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Old
10-21-2012, 11:44 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
However, if you think Scheifele's calling card is all around game, you're nuts. He was drsfted for his offensive upside, and remains a primarily offensive minded forward.
Seph, wanted to get back to you on this, less for the sake of Strome, and more for the sake of Scheifele.

Granted, I'm not watching this kid from over here at this point and found his preseason play for Winnipeg last fall extremely fascinating. Naturally, I know that Winnipeg didn't draft him where they did because they only saw say a 45 point two-way center. I'm thinking they have higher expectations than that.

When I talked to him at the 2011 U-18, where he had 8 points and was coming off his first season in the OHL (75 pts in 66 games, -22), he emphasized that he prided himself in an all-round game and very much was going work on that +/- changing in the following season (it did). In addition, a Team Canada official told me then that they were actually a bit surprised by his offense at the tournament (while a few other forwards were a wee bit disappointing), because bringing him in was done with the thought that he could be a solid, defensively responsible player who would make good use of puck possession on the third, perhaps the second line. Anything else was a cherry on top. He was raw to the program.

I don't know what was going on in the Winnipeg draft war room, but that's where I'm coming from on that front.

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Old
10-21-2012, 03:05 PM
  #293
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Nino scoring another goal in the 3rd game.

He totals 5 points (3g; 2a) so far in the season with at least a point per game.
His team won all 3 games and he was 2nd star in all 3 games.

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10-21-2012, 03:42 PM
  #294
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I know this isn't some big news, but there are some nice words about Pelech written on the OHL board from guys, who watch Erie play....

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1181813&page=8


Last edited by kuwo: 10-21-2012 at 03:48 PM.
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Old
10-21-2012, 04:59 PM
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Give it a break Jester.
I'll "give it a break" when you step off your awful stance or stop spewing that nonsense lol.

I checked back at the OHL points leaders over the last 5-6 years.... every one of them was at around a 1.5ppg pace. Some of those guys would be considered stars in the NHL right now.

You expect Strome to out pace those guys. Sorry, but I'm not wrong here.

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10-21-2012, 05:21 PM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Seph, wanted to get back to you on this, less for the sake of Strome, and more for the sake of Scheifele.

Granted, I'm not watching this kid from over here at this point and found his preseason play for Winnipeg last fall extremely fascinating. Naturally, I know that Winnipeg didn't draft him where they did because they only saw say a 45 point two-way center. I'm thinking they have higher expectations than that.

When I talked to him at the 2011 U-18, where he had 8 points and was coming off his first season in the OHL (75 pts in 66 games, -22), he emphasized that he prided himself in an all-round game and very much was going work on that +/- changing in the following season (it did). In addition, a Team Canada official told me then that they were actually a bit surprised by his offense at the tournament (while a few other forwards were a wee bit disappointing), because bringing him in was done with the thought that he could be a solid, defensively responsible player who would make good use of puck possession on the third, perhaps the second line. Anything else was a cherry on top. He was raw to the program.

I don't know what was going on in the Winnipeg draft war room, but that's where I'm coming from on that front.
Not saying he is terrible defensively, but he in my viewings of him, he definitely.played liked an offense first minded kind of guy. He still worked hard in defense, and showed some ability, but really wasn't any more effective than Strome in this aspect. With Strome, plenty of draft time scouting reports also praised him for playing a complete game and working hard in all three zones. But if either the.Islanders or Jets wanted the most.complete player, neither team would have.taken who they did, so IMO, it is pretty clear both players were drafted.primarily for offensive upside (which was also seen as the one question mark on Couturier, heading into the draft).

If Strome is focusing on defense this season, it wouldn't really surprise me if he was outplaying Scheifele on the defensive end. But regardless of who you think is better in this regard, the picture you painted Scheifele being the vastly superior defensive forward was unfair to say the.least. As is the picture you have painted that it is a fair expectation of Strome that he outscore Scheifele by 25% in order to meet standards.

Honestly, I can think of only two forwards in the past decade that scored at the pace you expect of Strome in their 4th ohl season and became scorers of note in the NHL: Corey Perry and Jason Spezza. Honestly, I don't think Strome's offensive upside is on par with either of these guys regardless of what he does this season, but I also.don't think it has to be to justify his draft position, as I don't see that kind of upside in any of the forwards that were available where he was drafted. Them aside, there are also guys like Jeff Carter, James Neal and Derek Roy, who Strome's stats are pretty comparable with and whose NHL play is pretty in line with Strome's upside, and whose 4th ohl season had stats pretty comparable to.Strome's.

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10-21-2012, 06:01 PM
  #297
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Steven Stamkos and John Tavares didn't score at the pace he wants from Strome!!

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10-21-2012, 07:06 PM
  #298
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Any news on deHaan's latest injury?

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10-21-2012, 08:05 PM
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Give it a break Jester.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
I'll "give it a break" when you step off your awful stance or stop spewing that nonsense lol.

I checked back at the OHL points leaders over the last 5-6 years.... every one of them was at around a 1.5ppg pace. Some of those guys would be considered stars in the NHL right now.

You expect Strome to out pace those guys. Sorry, but I'm not wrong here.
Let's ease up!! Everyone is entitled to their opinion, right, wrong or indifferent.

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10-21-2012, 09:21 PM
  #300
Chapin Landvogt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph View Post
But regardless of who you think is better in this regard, the picture you painted Scheifele being the vastly superior defensive forward was unfair to say the. least.
Hmmm, you shouldn't really have gotten that picture.

Did I or did I not originally write "If #7 2011 pick (with all-round game his calling card) Mark Scheifele can be leading the OHL with 19 points in 11 games in his third OHL season..."?

How do you derive "vastly superior defensive forward" out of that?

That bolded part above sounds like you just want to dish out of few slaps of the cane based on an insinuation you're making.

To top it off, you're doing it although I gave you a clearly understandable reason from my personal experience as to why I wrote what I did, whether it's something you care to put much value in or not.

Let me ask you these questions, because maybe your insinuation is based on a different understanding of the term 'calling card':
Do you think Strome and Scheifele had the same calling card in their draft year? Did you have the impression from everything you understood going into that draft that particularly these two players were seen as having similar offensive upside or dynamism?

Quote:
Honestly, I can think of only two forwards in the past decade that scored at the pace you expect of Strome in their 4th ohl season and became scorers of note in the NHL: Corey Perry and Jason Spezza.
Honestly, I don't think Strome's offensive upside is on par with either of these guys regardless of what he does this season, but I also.don't think it has to be to justify his draft position, as I don't see that kind of upside in any of the forwards that were available where he was drafted.
Apropos draft position...

What I'm gonna say now is something I've tried to point out a few times, because it's not intended to criticize Strome or his development at the OHL level per se as much as it is to question the Islanders' tendencies with respect to taking first rounders and what they factor into the equation. Now, my stating that I believe it's very reasonable to expect 100 points from Strome in 55 games this season is not to state that that's what it'll take to justify his draft position, as in being the number 5 pick. Do however understand it as an expectation that has much to do with needing stronger verification - at this point - as to why the Isles made the decision to use this top 5 pick to take an average sized kid with somewhat average skating and a fairly minute track record - who indeed has some dazzle in his game and a connection to Tavares - over a bigger kid of the same position with a longer track record, the same scoring pace, a lot more attention, WJC experience, and an overall game that was testified to by no less than his +62 and +55 ratings at the junior level.

What irks me here is that I want to see more out of Strome now, because I want more proof that our beloved Isles made a sound decision with respect hereto, in as much as it can be given before he's on NHL ice.

The pure numbers, track record and I dare say conventional wisdom said they didn't at the time (they weren't the only ones), and in the year since, I can hardly imagine there's anyone around the NHL saying, for example, "Boy, I bet the Flyers are pissed as all heck that they got stuck with that Couturier kid. They must be some kind of upset about how that's turned out!"

I've stated many times that I love the Islanders' drafting in the lower rounds, but I've got my gripes with their first round decisions to date, especially considering the only impact player of the bunch so far was the one no-brainer at #1 overall.

I've contended in the past that Fowler would have been the pick of conventional wisdom, that de Haan for 4+ picks was not a move filled with level-headed wisdom (especially considering that Kulikov's having been ranked a good bit ahead of de Haan has shown itself to have been for sound reasoning) and that Couturier would have been the pick of conventional wisdom when taking the criteria I listed above into account.

Certainly no conclusions of the Isles having made generally poor 1st round picks in Snow's short tenure can be made at this point (and yes, I'm well aware that they seem to put an emphasis on taking guys who are young for their draft class and match their personality/character requirements), but for a franchise that has had LITTLE success with its first rounders being productive, impactful, winning Islanders in the past 20 years, I am certainly very sceptical of their 1st round drafting habits and am uneasy with them letting guys with some pretty high profiles slide through their hands.

It doesn't help in the least when our kids see their levels of play or production levels drop, or hit bumps in the road, in the years after their draft while the guys we pass up to take them go right into the NHL and take on solid, if not downright important, roles with their respective teams.

I hope you (and others) can understand that I'm not looking to unfairly be down on Strome because I'm expecting him to be some superman that he's not. I'm displaying that his season isn't doing much to make me believe that the Isles made the best choice here.

And that's something I'd so like to start believing in, somewhere, at some point soon.

By the way, I'm glad you mention Jason Spezza above.

I was recently asked:
>>>
Name one prospect, let's just say from the OHL -- from the past 10-15 years that you can use as an example of this. Someone that was drafted say, top 10, spent 4 years in the OHL and dominated statistically as you would like to see Strome dominate in their final season and then went on to become an NHL star or impact player.
<<<

Spezza was the guy I named, for he answered exactly that request.

I do not want to be misunderstood here.

Mentioning him was solely so as to give the questioner the response he was seeking, not to state that:
A) "I expect #5 pick Strome to be as statistically good or better than #2 pick Jason Spezza was in his fourth year of OHL hockey"
or that
B) "I think we should expect Ryan Strome to be every bit as good as Jason Spezza when he's an NHLer".

And technically, his 4th year totals of 105 in 53 games would usurp a Strome expectation of 100 in 55 games.

Quote:
...there are also guys like Jeff Carter, James Neal and Derek Roy, who Strome's stats are pretty comparable with and whose NHL play is pretty in line with Strome's upside, and whose 4th ohl season had stats pretty comparable to.Strome's.
Those are some guys who I'm sure some Islander fans wouldn't mind wanting to see Strome end up like in the NHL.

I still see these guys as 'lowering the bar' though when it comes to comparing their 4th year of juniors to Strome's.

Now, I know this might sound a bit knitpicky to you, but Strome's actually not on the PPG pace Neal (a 2nd round pick) was his fourth season (pace of 94 to Strome's current 85 based on playing 65 games), in which he then had a pretty doggone big playoffs with 25 points in 20 games. In addition, his first OHL season only consisted of 9 games as well, so altogether he wasn't quite at the level of OHL experience Strome is well on his way to gathering. And Derek Roy (a 2nd round pick) was also on pace for over 100 points his fourth year, in which he then had 32 playoff points in 21 PO games to boot.

Jeff Carter is an interesting guy to mention. In his draft year, where he went 11th, his scoring wasn't nearly as dynamic as Strome's and Strome continues to be on a better pace now than what Carter ended up with his fourth OHL season. Naturally, we'd be some kind of fortunate to have Carter-like NHL production (well, sans last season), but I've kind of had the impression that Carter has had a few seasons in which he ended up being better than people had expected in light of his junior career.

If we want to make comparables with respect to a current NHLer, taking into consideration a similar dynamism, style, size, righty shot, skating, hockey sense, 4 years of CHL junior play and what is even expected of Strome from this organization - or put simply, what this organization DESPERATELY needs of Strome at the NHL level in light of its lack of player acquisition from the outside and the goal of taking the next step in the standings - I have to continually point to Jordan Eberle. He's the guy I think of when I see Strome. He's the one I continue to believe this franchise was thinking of when they grabbed him. He's the complementary player who has that uncanny hockey sense and timing that allows him to be so incredibly effective, despite a lack of overwhelming size or pure speed.

He's the type of standard I'm looking at with respect to what should be expected of Strome - now at the junior level and in the future in the NHL. That's the type of impactful skill and wherewithall, based on what I've seen from both players and the way this franchise has talked him up, we should be looking to get out of this young man.

With that in mind, Eberle put up 106 points in 57 games his 4th year of juniors and thus, that's where I've been getting my 100 points in 55 games measuring stick from.


Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 10-21-2012 at 09:32 PM.
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