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2012-2013 Prospect Talk PART IV

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10-23-2012, 01:41 PM
  #351
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
Just like it looks like 11 teams made a mistake not taking Grigorenko (who's tearing up the "Q"), hopefully we didn't make a mistake passing up Rielly.
I didn't want to be the one to say it.

That kid simply has size and on-ice awareness that you can't teach. Throw in the hands, creativity and ability to read the play and well, this guy could be one of the top 10 NHL scorers in 7-10 year's time.

He was THE perfect guy for Buffalo to take considering they had two firsts and surely he has huge, huge NHL potential. I mean just imagine if ends up being a mini-Malkin?

This said, I'd have to think that he'd still have gone top 3-5 if he hadn't been Russian, even despite what some folks had to say about his playoffs and the time while playing with a bum ankle.

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10-23-2012, 01:48 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
I didn't want to be the one to say it.

That kid simply has size and on-ice awareness that you can't teach. Throw in the hands, creativity and ability to read the play and well, this guy could be one of the top 10 NHL scorers in 7-10 year's time.

He was THE perfect guy for Buffalo to take considering they had two firsts and surely he has huge, huge NHL potential. I mean just imagine if ends up being a mini-Malkin?

This said, I'd have to think that he'd still have gone top 3-5 if he hadn't been Russian, even despite what some folks had to say about his playoffs and the time while playing with a bum ankle.
Was heartbroken when we didn't take Grigorenko, I've seen too many of these things happen to the Isles in the past. This is like when we lost out on Jagr and wound up with Scisson's, except, this time, we actually had a shot at Jagr and passed him up. This pick may go down to haunt us for years. Though I'm more than happy to cheer on Reinhart. It is what it is, can't change it now.

In 71 GP 50 goals 59 assists 109 points. Averaged 1.44 points a game last year, 2.00 points per game this year, tearing it up !

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10-23-2012, 02:00 PM
  #353
Chapin Landvogt
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Was heartbroken when we didn't take Grigorenko, I've seen too many of these things happen to the Isles in the past. This is like when we lost out on Jagr and wound up with Scisson's, except, this time, we actually had a shot at Jagr and passed him up. This pick may go down to haunt us for years. Though I'm more than happy to cheer on Reinhart. It is what it is, can't change it now.

In 71 GP 50 goals 59 assists 109 points. Averaged 1.44 points a game last year, 2.00 points per game this year, tearing it up !
Yep, I didn't mind Reinhart, because I had heard a lot of good things and a few in the know had even told me in passing that some think he'll be the best Dman to come out of this draft when all is said and done (ahhhh, the hope), but my real personal desire was to see us take Grigorenko, Russianness be damned.

Still, don't mind that we played it safe on that front.

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10-23-2012, 02:26 PM
  #354
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Grigorenko was being ripped apart on here, remember. I wanted Grigorenko so badly, but.....Reinhart could be special. Grigs will be something else, though. He's just that talented.

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10-23-2012, 02:49 PM
  #355
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Grigorenko was being ripped apart on here, remember. I wanted Grigorenko so badly, but.....Reinhart could be special. Grigs will be something else, though. He's just that talented.
But wasn't Grigorenko criticized for his attitude and work ethic and commitment leading up to the draft?

I'd think a fan base who's still facing a Yashin-on-the-cap issue would certainly understanding passing on an enigmatic Russian with such issues, lingering KHL flight-risks, etc.

And regardless of how skilled he is and how many points he gets in the Q this year, that in no way predicts NHL success any more than it did for Mikael Stefanovich after his big 49 goal season in the Q.

I'm happy with passing on Grigorenko, under those circumstances.

If he ends up turning it around and having a spectacular NHL career, great. As long as Snow grabs players who help the NYI win, then I'm happy.

Now, if only Snow can grab players who help the NYI win!


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10-23-2012, 02:59 PM
  #356
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How's nino doing so far?

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10-23-2012, 03:36 PM
  #357
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How's nino doing so far?
Quite well so far, I believe he has 3 goals 2 assists 5 points in 3 AHL games so far. Leads the team in scoring.

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10-23-2012, 04:26 PM
  #358
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Quite well so far, I believe he has 3 goals 2 assists 5 points in 3 AHL games so far. Leads the team in scoring.
nice, he needs to stay down there at LEAST one FULL season. I wouldnt even mind if he stayed down there two. just make up for the ****show that happened last year and get his confidence back.

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10-23-2012, 05:34 PM
  #359
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nice, he needs to stay down there at LEAST one FULL season. I wouldnt even mind if he stayed down there two. just make up for the ****show that happened last year and get his confidence back.
If he keeps up his pace, which is almost impossible, but if he scores 30 goals, I don't see why he would need a second season in the AHL.

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10-23-2012, 05:42 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
I didn't want to be the one to say it.

That kid simply has size and on-ice awareness that you can't teach. Throw in the hands, creativity and ability to read the play and well, this guy could be one of the top 10 NHL scorers in 7-10 year's time.

He was THE perfect guy for Buffalo to take considering they had two firsts and surely he has huge, huge NHL potential. I mean just imagine if ends up being a mini-Malkin?

This said, I'd have to think that he'd still have gone top 3-5 if he hadn't been Russian, even despite what some folks had to say about his playoffs and the time while playing with a bum ankle.
I dont see Reinhart much so I cant comment on him.

As for Grigorenko, he has offensive upside but he is NOT a game changer. He has a good shot and he is big. That is about it. He is lazy on the back-check and doesnt hit. It also doesnt hurt that he is on one of the best teams in the Q with guys like Erne, Sorensen, Shaw and Duclair. I was one of the only Habs fans that didnt want Grigo from the start. These are 4 of his 10 goals this year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyhZYaIpOt4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeCjflE0OUw





Last edited by Homeland Security: 10-23-2012 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Embed YT
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10-23-2012, 09:04 PM
  #361
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Grigs is without a doubt a special talent, however, there is a reason teams who def did need offensive help allowed the kid to slipt past their picks.

Reinhart IMO will be the most solid and consistent player in this years draft. Might not be the most flashy and might not make the highlight reels all to often but will be a solid top pairing. Reinaart will eat up minutes and be matched up against other teams top lines and more-or-less neutralize them.

I for one was absolutely crushed when Murray went second overall. IMO, Murray was one of the better defenders since Doughty to come out. Would have been something special if Murray was ours but other than that if NY was to go offense in the draft... Forsberg or Teravainen would have been the better choices.

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10-23-2012, 11:53 PM
  #362
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10-24-2012, 12:47 AM
  #363
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But wasn't Grigorenko criticized for his attitude and work ethic and commitment leading up to the draft?

I'd think a fan base who's still facing a Yashin-on-the-cap issue would certainly understanding passing on an enigmatic Russian with such issues, lingering KHL flight-risks, etc.

And regardless of how skilled he is and how many points he gets in the Q this year, that in no way predicts NHL success any more than it did for Mikael Stefanovich after his big 49 goal season in the Q.

I'm happy with passing on Grigorenko, under those circumstances.

If he ends up turning it around and having a spectacular NHL career, great. As long as Snow grabs players who help the NYI win, then I'm happy.

Now, if only Snow can grab players who help the NYI win!


Grigorenko is closer to Yashin than Malkin IMO - and honestly if you take away the baggage Yashin was still in his prime a great offensive player, but when looking at Grigorenko's numbers, you always have to remember the Remparts are stacked with talent and the Q is the most imbalanced of the CHL leagues.

Grigorenko shouldn't have dropped out of the top 10 but teams were concerned for a reason, he doesn't have an extra gear.

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10-24-2012, 08:39 AM
  #364
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Let's be honest, the Grigs-Yashin comparison is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fact that he is a big Russian guy who doesn't play a very physical game leads scouts to look for, grasp for negative traits in his game. So they come up with stereotypical lazy, bad work ethic concerns so people here say "see another lazy Russian."

But what were these work ethic concerns based off of? No answer from the other end, just 100% blind faith that they are NHL scouts for a reason. Shockingly he gets off to a great start and to justify their draft pick people are looking to bring him down.

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10-24-2012, 10:47 AM
  #365
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Grigs is better than Strome, easily. #14 and #5 in their respective drafts. So i think here somebody made a mistake, but time will tell. Anyway, I think we have good Depth at his position so Grigs was not a need.

If the lockout remains indefinitely i hope we got a high pick but we are not in good position with only two balls, seven teams got three balls and other five teams got two. Fingers crossed

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10-24-2012, 11:23 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by YashinWorksHard View Post
Grigs is better than Strome, easily. #14 and #5 in their respective drafts. So i think here somebody made a mistake, but time will tell. Anyway, I think we have good Depth at his position so Grigs was not a need.

If the lockout remains indefinitely i hope we got a high pick but we are not in good position with only two balls, seven teams got three balls and other five teams got two. Fingers crossed
2012 draft was ridiculously deep w/defenseman. Nobody expected Forsberg to drop where he did too. As far as talentwise, I think you are underrating Strome's talent, In their draft years, Grigs was more of a goal scorer, but I think Strome was a way better passer/set up man (28 more assists in only 6 more games) than Grigs. Considering that the Q is known as more of an offensive league, it's tough to discount Strome's season prior to the draft (Grig's season beneath it).

Strome
2010-11 Niagara IceDogs OHL 65 33 73 106 82 28 14 6 6 12 19

1.63 ppg

Grigorenko
2011-12 Quebec Remparts QMJHL 59 40 45 85 12 35 11 3 7 10 4

1.44 ppg

Yeah Grigorenko is blowing it up this season, but I feel you have to look at the situations, neither player is playing on common ground with common teammmates.

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10-24-2012, 11:39 AM
  #367
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Also Strome in the '11 WJC averaged more than a point per game and he was invisible at times, simply i think he's not that good as his stats/highlights say. I like him, but not as top five in his class. But I would be very happy to be wrong.

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10-24-2012, 11:43 AM
  #368
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Also Strome in the '11 WJC averaged more than a point per game and he was invisible at times, simply i think he's not that good as his stats/highlights say. I like him, but not as top five in his class. But I would be very happy to be wrong.
Strome has slick skills, if he can improve his strength, ala Tavares, he can be a very successful NHL player.

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10-24-2012, 03:19 PM
  #369
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Let's be honest, the Grigs-Yashin comparison is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fact that he is a big Russian guy who doesn't play a very physical game leads scouts to look for, grasp for negative traits in his game. So they come up with stereotypical lazy, bad work ethic concerns so people here say "see another lazy Russian."

But what were these work ethic concerns based off of? No answer from the other end, just 100% blind faith that they are NHL scouts for a reason. Shockingly he gets off to a great start and to justify their draft pick people are looking to bring him down.
I don't think that's true in Grigs case, though for Isles FANS, it's definitely a self-fulfilling thing, like it was with Kabanov to some extent.

There were A LOT OF SOURCES (Google can find them) that questioned Grigorenko's compete level, his ability to translate his game to the NHL. And he did fall quite a bit so it was obviously a sentiment shared in hockey - as it was for Kabanov in his draft year.

In terms of "bringing him down" - it's true, BUT it works both ways, just like some are so convinced "we should have taken him" and use his hot start to justify that stance.

Schremp scored 153pts in his last year of junior. I'm sure there were a lot of fans thinking what a STEAL the Oilers got at #25 (or whatever choice he'd fallen to that year)

Nothing to celebrate here. Grigs is no Jeff Skinner, not yet anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YashinWorksHard View Post
Grigs is better than Strome, easily. #14 and #5 in their respective drafts. So i think here somebody made a mistake, but time will tell.
Why are you so sure about that?

Are you suggesting he's better in junior? Even though they play in different leagues?

Personally, seems like a baseless opinion, even if you've seen BOTH play enough times to have an educated opinion - not sure if you have.

We'll see what kind of WJC they have this year.

I don't put much stock in OHL vs QMJHL regular season scoring stats, especially not 10-12 games in.

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10-24-2012, 07:04 PM
  #370
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Was heartbroken when we didn't take Grigorenko, I've seen too many of these things happen to the Isles in the past. This is like when we lost out on Jagr and wound up with Scisson's, except, this time, we actually had a shot at Jagr and passed him up. This pick may go down to haunt us for years. Though I'm more than happy to cheer on Reinhart. It is what it is, can't change it now.

In 71 GP 50 goals 59 assists 109 points. Averaged 1.44 points a game last year, 2.00 points per game this year, tearing it up !
Grigorenko's ability to pile up points in the Q was never in question. It's his ability to translate that production to the NHL that's in question, and rightfully so. Whenever he's faced with physical adversity he backs down -- that will not fly in the NHL. He's got all the talent in the world and can exploit the smaller, softer defensemen in the Q, but he'll have a real hard time replicating those numbers in the pros where he'll be tested physically on a nightly basis. His lackadaisical style of play will have to change.

This is nothing like when the Islanders lost out on Jagr and wound up with Scissons. Don't be so quick to judge or compare a prospect to a surefire Hall of Famer and one of the best of all time. Grigorenko has a long way to go before he ever reaches that status and has a lot left to prove. Not to mention that he doesn't nearly have the drive or style of play Jagr had at the same age.

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10-24-2012, 07:22 PM
  #371
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I agree a bit with Konk. The only time Malkin has been controlled is when he's hit and hit hard and consistently. Even then it's not a surefire thing he wont' sneak up on you and get his obligatory goal a game. Watching clips of Grigs he really does remind me of Yashin and I am not comparing them based on attitude. IF you watch him he doesn't control the play. He gets himself in good position and is ready to fire the puck when he gets it. If he doesn't have players around him feeding him the puck he will be a non factor and if you put a heavy hitting solid defender on him he won't be able to escape. So I just don't think he'll be any type of game changer but it doesn't mean he won't be a steady producer.

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10-24-2012, 09:21 PM
  #372
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Old
10-25-2012, 08:38 AM
  #373
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Being that Kichton is in his overage year and probably wasn't signed this past offseason just because there was no room for him at Bridgeport, is there any chance they could sign him now to replace De Haan?? Is there any rule against signing a junior player once the season has started?

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10-25-2012, 08:50 AM
  #374
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Being that Kichton is in his overage year and probably wasn't signed this past offseason just because there was no room for him at Bridgeport, is there any chance they could sign him now to replace De Haan?? Is there any rule against signing a junior player once the season has started?
IPB had an article about this exact question. Seems like the lockout has to end first for the Isles to be able to sign him and send him to the Bridge.

http://islanderspointblank.com/news/...dh/#more-37527

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10-25-2012, 08:52 AM
  #375
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I haven't posted in awhile. One thing I have been thinking about is how diffferent our team could look next year than they would have looked this season if the lockout lasts a full season.

We are in a position as a team that many of our prospects looked like they were one year away, or could use a little more seasoning heading into the 2012-2013 season.

For instance:

Cizikas and Ullstrom may have made the roster this year, and may have played well, but both will be that much more ready and physically mature with a full season at the Bridge this year. They should be locks for 2013-2014.

Nino, Strome, Kabanov, Nelson, De Haan (since hurt), Donovan, maybe even Persson and Sundstrom weren't ready for the big show this year, but may be ready next year to either make the team or give a serious push next year.

To a lesser extent, guys like Anders Lee, maybe even Griffin Reinhart, Pedan and Mayfield would not have made the team this year, but have a chance in 2013-2014 (especially Lee).

And geez, just think about 3 years from now when we head to Brooklyn. Of course not all these prospects will pan out, but even if half these kids make it, the future is looking bright.

But the point of this rant is that the difference in our roster from what would have been in 2012-2013, to what will be in 2013-2014 is huge!!

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