HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Islanders
Notices

2012-2013 Prospect Talk PART IV

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-05-2012, 09:26 AM
  #551
redbull
Expect more
 
redbull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,422
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
For some teams, that might be an option.

Especially if they don't have much of a prospect pool or have a scouting staff that is so dead set on the prospects of two top 45 picks that they'd rather grab them than one big surefire guy.

Despite some really good drafts in recent years, I dunno if any has offered this type of impact player at 1 and 2 since Ovechkin and Malkin went 1st and 2nd in '04.

For the Islanders, who have prospect depth, but only really have one major impact player in Tavares, it would be an absolute NO BRAINER that, if picking 1 or 2, one of Mackinnon or Jones would be taken and call it a day.

No questions asked.

And it would be the best thing they could possibly do.
well said Chapin.

Never mess around with the elite talents when you have a chance to grab one!


Quote:
Originally Posted by doublechili View Post
Is anyone else concerned that so many of Strome's points are assists? It could be that he's just living off Ritchie's goal-scoring prowess.

Just kidding - doing a blood pressure check for you all.
I hate Isles fans
---

It's nice to see some Isles players/prospects have some success in other leagues! Gotta be happy with Strome's play this year, leading the OHL in scoring now, along with Nino's & Nelson's play in the AHL, deHaan before he got hurt. These are important prospects if the NYI are going to take the next step.

Pelech, Mayfield, Pedan, Lee are some other names doing well. Not to mention Cizikas who I think will be a lock on the NYI this year.

redbull is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 11:44 AM
  #552
Konk
Registered User
 
Konk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,817
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
Wasnt Schenn supposed to be generational talent or what about Bogosian? You never know what happens. Jones has not exactly been spectacular this year. Not generational talent good anyway. And I am not talking about going and get some average prospect in the centre of the round, I am saying moving a few spots down. Barkov, Drouin, Shinkaruk, Risto or Pulock are not bums.
Neither Schenn nor Bogosian were seen as generational talents on D. Only Doughty was considered in that ballpark from 2008.

Please also elaborate as to why Jones hasn't been spectacular this year, this is news to me and the rest of the hockey world. He had a slow first few games, but since then he's taken off. He currently has 10 points in his first 15 games in the WHL and has been rock solid defensively. He's shown incredible skating/skill for a big man and his hockey sense has been top notch. You're really off on this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
So moving down from 2nd to 5th-6th and getting Pulock, Risto or Shinkaruk as well as an early 2nd rounder is the worst possible thing you can do?
Well you could pass Jones up and just select someone else off the board, that could be the worst. Hyperbole aside, you do not pass up a talent like Jones for additional, lesser assets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
It might be just me but I would personally draft Barkov over Jones so moving down and getting additional assets seems good to me.
It's just you. At this point scouts are questioning Barkov's ultimate offensive upside. No question he's well developed already -- playing with men and producing. But that does not equal high upside. Hedman and Larsson are two examples of this, albeit at a different position. HF has been enamoured with Barkov, but scouts aren't as enamoured. I take scouts opinions over HF all seven days of the week.

Konk is online now  
Old
11-05-2012, 02:31 PM
  #553
periferal
Registered User
 
periferal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YashinWorksHard View Post
Really? We drafted seven defensemen in the last draft and you guys want another D in the 2013 first round if Jones is available? Don't forget we don't have second round.. I think we have bad luck, last year NJ stole "our" fourth pick and they drafted Larsson, in my opinion a much more value player than Reinhart in their respective drafts.
And who's to say that any of those 7 dmen form last draft will pan it as regular NHL defenseman? You take best player available always.

periferal is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 04:35 PM
  #554
LeHabsMan
Registered User
 
LeHabsMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Laval
Country: Italy
Posts: 1,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konk View Post
Neither Schenn nor Bogosian were seen as generational talents on D. Only Doughty was considered in that ballpark from 2008.

Please also elaborate as to why Jones hasn't been spectacular this year, this is news to me and the rest of the hockey world. He had a slow first few games, but since then he's taken off. He currently has 10 points in his first 15 games in the WHL and has been rock solid defensively. He's shown incredible skating/skill for a big man and his hockey sense has been top notch. You're really off on this one.

Well you could pass Jones up and just select someone else off the board, that could be the worst. Hyperbole aside, you do not pass up a talent like Jones for additional, lesser assets.

It's just you. At this point scouts are questioning Barkov's ultimate offensive upside. No question he's well developed already -- playing with men and producing. But that does not equal high upside. Hedman and Larsson are two examples of this, albeit at a different position. HF has been enamoured with Barkov, but scouts aren't as enamoured. I take scouts opinions over HF all seven days of the week.
I understand the points you made.

I am just not 100% sold on Seth Jones being a "generational talent". I dont think he will be as good as some say. I am sure he will be a good maybe great NHL player. But defensemen drafted early tend to be rushed or not the best D selected.

Defensemen in top from drafts from 2007-2010:
2010 #3: Erik Gudbranson
2010 #10: Dylan MacIlrath
2009 #2: Victor Hedman
2009 #6: Oliver-Ekman Larsson
2009 #9: Jared Cowen
2008 #2: Drew Doughty
2008 #3: Zach Bogosian
2008 #4: Alex Pietrangelo
2008 #5: Luke Schenn
2007 #4: Thomas Hickey
2007 #5: Karl Alzner
2007 #10: Keaton Ellerby

Now which ones here are worth being selected at that spot? Maybe 4 out of the 12. Some of them were selected before guys like McDonagh, Shattenkirk, Myers, Fowler... Now I am not saying that Jones will be a bust, but I just have that feeling that he will be a Hedman or Bogosian. Good defensively, decent offence, good size but not spectacular in any way. I also dont think he will be a Ellerby, Hickey or Schenn though.

I do think MacKinnon will be worth drafting. That is for sure. If he drops, take him with your eyes closed. Barkov would be my 2nd choice. And then between Jones and Drouin my 3rd/4th. Yes, Drouin. He would be INCREDIBLE with JT. He is my riser for this year.

Barkov: 6"2, 205lbs, C/LW/RW and 20 games, 10 goals, 10 assists and 20 points. He is playing against men. He may not be the most gifted offensive player, but he is an all around good player.

LeHabsMan is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 05:10 PM
  #555
CREW99AW
Registered User
 
CREW99AW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 27,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
I understand the points you made.

I am just not 100% sold on Seth Jones being a "generational talent". I dont think he will be as good as some say. I am sure he will be a good maybe great NHL player. But defensemen drafted early tend to be rushed or not the best D selected.

Defensemen in top from drafts from 2007-2010:
2010 #3: Erik Gudbranson
2010 #10: Dylan MacIlrath
2009 #2: Victor Hedman
2009 #6: Oliver-Ekman Larsson
2009 #9: Jared Cowen
2008 #2: Drew Doughty
2008 #3: Zach Bogosian
2008 #4: Alex Pietrangelo
2008 #5: Luke Schenn
2007 #4: Thomas Hickey
2007 #5: Karl Alzner
2007 #10: Keaton Ellerby

Now which ones here are worth being selected at that spot? Maybe 4 out of the 12. Some of them were selected before guys like McDonagh, Shattenkirk, Myers, Fowler... Now I am not saying that Jones will be a bust, but I just have that feeling that he will be a Hedman or Bogosian. Good defensively, decent offence, good size but not spectacular in any way. I also dont think he will be a Ellerby, Hickey or Schenn though.

I do think MacKinnon will be worth drafting. That is for sure. If he drops, take him with your eyes closed. Barkov would be my 2nd choice. And then between Jones and Drouin my 3rd/4th. Yes, Drouin. He would be INCREDIBLE with JT. He is my riser for this year.

Barkov: 6"2, 205lbs, C/LW/RW and 20 games, 10 goals, 10 assists and 20 points. He is playing against men. He may not be the most gifted offensive player, but he is an all around good player.

Scouts aren't calling either McKinnon or Jones, generational talents. They are calling them franchise players. Crosby is a generational talent. Tavares/Hall are franchise players.

On this board is a new Isles prospect article. 5 yrs of stockpiling picks, has given the isles, one of the deepest prospect pools in the nhl. Zero interest in passing up a potential franchise player, to grab an extra pick or two.

Isles should take BPA.

CREW99AW is online now  
Old
11-05-2012, 05:11 PM
  #556
Konk
Registered User
 
Konk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,817
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
I understand the points you made.

I am just not 100% sold on Seth Jones being a "generational talent". I dont think he will be as good as some say. I am sure he will be a good maybe great NHL player. But defensemen drafted early tend to be rushed or not the best D selected.
On what grounds do you not think he'll be as good as some say? I've watched him for a few years now and have seen him, Bogosian, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Jack Johnson, Erik Johnson, and Cam Fowler all at the same age and stage of development, for example, and he is above all of them. The only ones I would put close to him would be Doughty and Pietrangelo -- their talent levels speak for themselves and they are close. He is more physically and offensively assertive than Pietrangelo, but plays a similarly controlled, cerebral defensive game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
Defensemen in top from drafts from 2007-2010:
2010 #3: Erik Gudbranson
2010 #10: Dylan MacIlrath
2009 #2: Victor Hedman
2009 #6: Oliver-Ekman Larsson
2009 #9: Jared Cowen
2008 #2: Drew Doughty
2008 #3: Zach Bogosian
2008 #4: Alex Pietrangelo
2008 #5: Luke Schenn
2007 #4: Thomas Hickey
2007 #5: Karl Alzner
2007 #10: Keaton Ellerby

Now which ones here are worth being selected at that spot? Maybe 4 out of the 12. Some of them were selected before guys like McDonagh, Shattenkirk, Myers, Fowler... Now I am not saying that Jones will be a bust, but I just have that feeling that he will be a Hedman or Bogosian. Good defensively, decent offence, good size but not spectacular in any way. I also dont think he will be a Ellerby, Hickey or Schenn though.
Hedman received considerable hype due to the fact that he was physically developed early and played against men. Bogosian was very raw during his draft year. Neither are a good comparison. I would like to know your reasoning behind all of this other than a gut feeling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
I do think MacKinnon will be worth drafting. That is for sure. If he drops, take him with your eyes closed. Barkov would be my 2nd choice. And then between Jones and Drouin my 3rd/4th. Yes, Drouin. He would be INCREDIBLE with JT. He is my riser for this year.
He is your riser? Really? You're really ahead of the curve with that one. Yes, that was sarcasm.

I would like to know how much of both Barkov and Jones you've seen to justify your position, because you are all alone on that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
Barkov: 6"2, 205lbs, C/LW/RW and 20 games, 10 goals, 10 assists and 20 points. He is playing against men. He may not be the most gifted offensive player, but he is an all around good player.
All-around good players don't get drafted higher than big, smart, smooth-skating defensemen that posses every tool imaginable and still have tons of room for growth. Just doesn't happen. Expect Barkov to drop farther down as scouts continue to question his offensive ceiling. Happens often with guys like him, Couturier, etc. I would say anywhere from 4-6, as Lindholm and Drouin continue to rise.

Konk is online now  
Old
11-05-2012, 05:38 PM
  #557
LeHabsMan
Registered User
 
LeHabsMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Laval
Country: Italy
Posts: 1,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konk View Post
On what grounds do you not think he'll be as good as some say? I've watched him for a few years now and have seen him, Bogosian, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Jack Johnson, Erik Johnson, and Cam Fowler all at the same age and stage of development, for example, and he is above all of them. The only ones I would put close to him would be Doughty and Pietrangelo -- their talent levels speak for themselves and they are close. He is more physically and offensively assertive than Pietrangelo, but plays a similarly controlled, cerebral defensive game.


Hedman received considerable hype due to the fact that he was physically developed early and played against men. Bogosian was very raw during his draft year. Neither are a good comparison. I would like to know your reasoning behind all of this other than a gut feeling.


He is your riser? Really? You're really ahead of the curve with that one. Yes, that was sarcasm.

I would like to know how much of both Barkov and Jones you've seen to justify your position, because you are all alone on that one.

All-around good players don't get drafted higher than big, smart, smooth-skating defensemen that posses every tool imaginable and still have tons of room for growth. Just doesn't happen. Expect Barkov to drop farther down as scouts continue to question his offensive ceiling. Happens often with guys like him, Couturier, etc. I would say anywhere from 4-6, as Lindholm and Drouin continue to rise.
I was saying Drouin would be a very good player since he was drafted into the Q. I am from Quebec so I saw more of him than anyone here. He is starting to become very big now. He WAS my riser in the draft before he started to have a 2ppg pace. Now he is up there with everyone else.

Now back to Jones. I have only seen highlights of Barkov since he is in Finland. But I am not alone to say Barkov can compete with Jones for 2nd and MacKinnon for 1st if he has slight improvement. But I have seen enough of Jones to say he can be a franchise defenseman. I never doubted that and probably wont. He can be great but not a Norris candidate. Just look at Erik Johnson or Victor Hedman. They were extremely hyped and didnt become anything near what they were expected to be. Now I am definetely not saying Jones wont be great, he will be, but he is overhyped and shouldnt go 1st or 2nd overall. And no, I am not the only ne to say this. I have seen scoutiing reports that have him going as low as 4th behind MacKinnon, Barkov and Lindholm(I dont know why he is ahead either). I would love to show you the article if I can find it again.

I never compared his playing style to Hedman or Bogosian. I said they were high picks that are now not worth the high selection. Now you asked why I say he wont be as good as some say. He is complete. He can play offense, defense, start the rush, he is big and skates very well. So was Hedman. He has all the tools to succeed but I dont think he will take it to the next level. I saw some of his games online and highlights of others. He isnt always consistent every shift but noone is. He does make mistakes and needs to take everything to the next level. Like Dougie Hamilton.

Wow I cant believe this all started because I suggested trading down.

Here is someone elses opinion:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1279881
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1#post55547081


Last edited by LeHabsMan: 11-05-2012 at 06:10 PM.
LeHabsMan is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 06:06 PM
  #558
LeHabsMan
Registered User
 
LeHabsMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Laval
Country: Italy
Posts: 1,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Scouts aren't calling either McKinnon or Jones, generational talents. They are calling them franchise players. Crosby is a generational talent. Tavares/Hall are franchise players.

On this board is a new Isles prospect article. 5 yrs of stockpiling picks, has given the isles, one of the deepest prospect pools in the nhl. Zero interest in passing up a potential franchise player, to grab an extra pick or two.

Isles should take BPA.
I agree on not passing up a franchise player. But I also think in a deep draft, you can get another franchise player. Barkov, Drouin...

LeHabsMan is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 06:30 PM
  #559
Konk
Registered User
 
Konk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,817
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
I was saying Drouin would be a very good player since he was drafted into the Q. I am from Quebec so I saw more of him than anyone here. He is starting to become very big now. He WAS my riser in the draft before he started to have a 2ppg pace. Now he is up there with everyone else.
Ah, so this is about ego, I get it now. McKenzie had him as a possible riser into the top 10 prior to the year after polling 10 scouts so clearly there was awareness of him outside of yourself.
Quote:
Now back to Jones. I have only seen highlights of Barkov since he is in Finland. But I am not alone to say Barkov can compete with Jones for 2nd and MacKinnon for 1st if he has slight improvement. But I have seen enough of Jones to say he can be a franchise defenseman. I never doubted that and probably wont. He can be great but not a Norris candidate. Just look at Erik Johnson or Victor Hedman. They were extremely hyped and didnt become anything near what they were expected to be. Now I am definetely not saying Jones wont be great, he will be, but he is overhyped and shouldnt go 1st or 2nd overall. And no, I am not the only ne to say this. I have seen scoutiing reports that have him going as low as 4th behind MacKinnon, Barkov and Lindholm(I dont know why he is ahead either). I would love to show you the article if I can find it again.
Hedman and Johnson were overhyped due to unrealized potential and everyone that watched Jones and Johnson come through the USNTP could tell you Jones is in a different league. Clearly being in Quebec, you don't have much access.
Quote:
I never compared his playing style to Hedman or Bogosian. I said they were high picks that are now not worth the high selection. Now you asked why I say he wont be as good as some say. He is complete. He can play offense, defense, start the rush, he is big and skates very well. So was Hedman. He has all the tools to succeed but I dont think he will take it to the next level. I saw some of his games online and highlights of others. He isnt always consistent every shift but noone is. He does make mistakes and needs to take everything to the next level. Like Dougie Hamilton.
Some games online and highlights, so clearly your opinion on him should be taken with a grain of salt. All credible scouting services have Jones 1st or 2nd.
An opinion of someone on HF versus professional scouts who get paid for their opinion, all of whom have Jones 1st or 2nd. Again, it all comes down to credibility and I'll take the scouts over HF posters all day.

Konk is online now  
Old
11-05-2012, 06:41 PM
  #560
leaponover
Registered User
 
leaponover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Iskan, S. Korea
Country: South Korea
Posts: 2,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konk View Post
Ah, so this is about ego, I get it now. McKenzie had him as a possible riser into the top 10 prior to the year after polling 10 scouts so clearly there was awareness of him outside of yourself.

Hedman and Johnson were overhyped due to unrealized potential and everyone that watched Jones and Johnson come through the USNTP could tell you Jones is in a different league. Clearly being in Quebec, you don't have much access.

Some games online and highlights, so clearly your opinion on him should be taken with a grain of salt. All credible scouting services have Jones 1st or 2nd.

An opinion of someone on HF versus professional scouts who get paid for their opinion, all of whom have Jones 1st or 2nd. Again, it all comes down to credibility and I'll take the scouts over HF posters all day.
I think your order of importance is more Konk>Paid Scouts>HF Posters...lol

Anyway you are being a little hard on the guy. Has nothing to do with him being in Quebec or ego. He has a different opinion and albeit a little off the radar it is a draft and in the end there is still a lot of Russian Roulette going on.

leaponover is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 06:43 PM
  #561
leaponover
Registered User
 
leaponover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Iskan, S. Korea
Country: South Korea
Posts: 2,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
I can't remember the last time we had two premium center prospects as developed as Strome and Nelson in a long time. Strome's development has been right on track for a top-5 pick and is looking like he'll make an impact next year. I've had the chance to see Nelson 4 times already (1 preseason and 3 real games) and he's really impressed me. It's clear that the Isles want to see how he fares at center (he can move to the wing), but he's got the tools and hockey IQ to excel in the pivot. I'm pretty sure he won't be overlooked much longer compared to some of his draft contemporaries.

It looks to me that a Tavares-Strome-Nelson combination could very well be reality when the puck is dropped in the first official game at the Barclay's Center in 2015. You don't have to squint George Constanza style to see it anymore.
Where do you have Frans? Please don't tell me you are demoting him to the 4th line now! I still think he's good enough to play 2nd line center but please don't tell me you are booting him out of the third line spot now...

leaponover is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 06:51 PM
  #562
Konk
Registered User
 
Konk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,817
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
I think your order of importance is more Konk>Paid Scouts>HF Posters...lol

Anyway you are being a little hard on the guy. Has nothing to do with him being in Quebec or ego. He has a different opinion and albeit a little off the radar it is a draft and in the end there is still a lot of Russian Roulette going on.
Weren't you the one that said Grigorenko wouldn't drop out of the top 5 last year? Clearly there's a track record building and I never put myself ahead of professional scouts, but it's obvious HFers like yourself do (i.e. Grigorenko).

There's not as much Russian Roulette as HFers make it seem like. It's more and more a science and scouts have developed a method -- those that go off the board, i.e. Mike Milbury's of the past, always end up getting burned. There are certain qualities to look for and some prospects have them in spades. Jones does. He clearly is in the vast minority by saying Jones isn't a top 2 prospect and placing Barkov/Drouin ahead of him. He then uses other posters as evidence to back up his opinion, without even realizing that he's further discrediting the notion being argued by doing so.

Konk is online now  
Old
11-05-2012, 07:37 PM
  #563
Brock
Moderator
 
Brock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Oakville
Posts: 9,210
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
Pelech has been a pleasant surprise for the Isles. Looking like a steal in the 3rd round with him.

Brock, what are your thoughts on Strome's play?
I haven't seen Strome during his current hot streak but I saw him earlier this season. He looked quicker for sure. Was much more effective off the rush and his first few steps looked more explosive. This is huge for him.

On a similar note, I got an email from a reader the other day saying how impressed he'd been with Mitchell Theoret's play this season. Last year was a disaster for him, but this year he seems to have gotten back to doing the things he did well in his draft year. Being an effective forechecker and board player, being physical, and going to the net looking for loose pucks.

__________________
OHL Prospects Blog - http://ohlprospects.blogspot.com/
OHL Prospects on Twitter - @BrockOtten
Brock is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 08:38 PM
  #564
LeHabsMan
Registered User
 
LeHabsMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Laval
Country: Italy
Posts: 1,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konk View Post
Ah, so this is about ego, I get it now. McKenzie had him as a possible riser into the top 10 prior to the year after polling 10 scouts so clearly there was awareness of him outside of yourself.

Hedman and Johnson were overhyped due to unrealized potential and everyone that watched Jones and Johnson come through the USNTP could tell you Jones is in a different league. Clearly being in Quebec, you don't have much access.

Some games online and highlights, so clearly your opinion on him should be taken with a grain of salt. All credible scouting services have Jones 1st or 2nd.

An opinion of someone on HF versus professional scouts who get paid for their opinion, all of whom have Jones 1st or 2nd. Again, it all comes down to credibility and I'll take the scouts over HF posters all day.

I am sure scouts knew he would improve. It is their job. So how exactly is this about ego? I made a prediction and I was right so that is my ego now?

Scouts have him in the top 2. Fine. I am sure some NHL scouts have him lower down. Look at Grigo, Hamilton, Couturier. They were all franchise talents that dropped. It is possible. Would you hace put money on those guys falling to where they did at this stage in the season?

And you stated that I am alone on Jones not being top 2. I showed you someone else that has the same opinion as me. He isnt a scout but he counts. So calm down a bit. I am entitled to my opinion and I put up some valid points and I stated my opinion on why he isnt top 2 in my mind. The only thing you mentionned is "the scouts say this and the scouts say that". Scouts have been wrong in the past and I think they will be again. I mmay be a minority but it is what I think.

LeHabsMan is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 08:41 PM
  #565
LeHabsMan
Registered User
 
LeHabsMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Laval
Country: Italy
Posts: 1,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konk View Post
Weren't you the one that said Grigorenko wouldn't drop out of the top 5 last year? Clearly there's a track record building and I never put myself ahead of professional scouts, but it's obvious HFers like yourself do (i.e. Grigorenko).

There's not as much Russian Roulette as HFers make it seem like. It's more and more a science and scouts have developed a method -- those that go off the board, i.e. Mike Milbury's of the past, always end up getting burned. There are certain qualities to look for and some prospects have them in spades. Jones does. He clearly is in the vast minority by saying Jones isn't a top 2 prospect and placing Barkov/Drouin ahead of him. He then uses other posters as evidence to back up his opinion, without even realizing that he's further discrediting the notion being argued by doing so.
I was just showing him that I am not alone in this. He says everyone thinks Jones is top 2. Which obviously not even though he is not a scout.

LeHabsMan is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 09:27 PM
  #566
Brain Hemorrhage
Registered User
 
Brain Hemorrhage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,431
vCash: 500
Can you please stop this repetitive discussion. You are not adding any value to the forums by drawing out a boring argument.

Brain Hemorrhage is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 09:37 PM
  #567
seafoam
#Sharks2014
 
seafoam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Rhode Island
Country: United States
Posts: 31,386
vCash: 2049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
I understand the points you made.

I am just not 100% sold on Seth Jones being a "generational talent". I dont think he will be as good as some say. I am sure he will be a good maybe great NHL player. But defensemen drafted early tend to be rushed or not the best D selected.

Defensemen in top from drafts from 2007-2010:
2010 #3: Erik Gudbranson
2010 #10: Dylan MacIlrath
2009 #2: Victor Hedman
2009 #6: Oliver-Ekman Larsson
2009 #9: Jared Cowen
2008 #2: Drew Doughty
2008 #3: Zach Bogosian
2008 #4: Alex Pietrangelo
2008 #5: Luke Schenn
2007 #4: Thomas Hickey
2007 #5: Karl Alzner
2007 #10: Keaton Ellerby

Now which ones here are worth being selected at that spot? Maybe 4 out of the 12. Some of them were selected before guys like McDonagh, Shattenkirk, Myers, Fowler... Now I am not saying that Jones will be a bust, but I just have that feeling that he will be a Hedman or Bogosian. Good defensively, decent offence, good size but not spectacular in any way. I also dont think he will be a Ellerby, Hickey or Schenn though.

I do think MacKinnon will be worth drafting. That is for sure. If he drops, take him with your eyes closed. Barkov would be my 2nd choice. And then between Jones and Drouin my 3rd/4th. Yes, Drouin. He would be INCREDIBLE with JT. He is my riser for this year.

Barkov: 6"2, 205lbs, C/LW/RW and 20 games, 10 goals, 10 assists and 20 points. He is playing against men. He may not be the most gifted offensive player, but he is an all around good player.
Your not supporting your opinion what so ever, and no your gut is not a credible source. Stop feeding Konk, this is a prospect thread, if you want to talk about Seth Jones go to our draft thread or the Seth Jones thread.

seafoam is offline  
Old
11-05-2012, 10:07 PM
  #568
Konk
Registered User
 
Konk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,817
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
Scouts have him in the top 2. Fine. I am sure some NHL scouts have him lower down. Look at Grigo, Hamilton, Couturier. They were all franchise talents that dropped. It is possible. Would you hace put money on those guys falling to where they did at this stage in the season?
Clearly you're using that term loosely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
And you stated that I am alone on Jones not being top 2. I showed you someone else that has the same opinion as me. He isnt a scout but he counts. So calm down a bit. I am entitled to my opinion and I put up some valid points and I stated my opinion on why he isnt top 2 in my mind. The only thing you mentionned is "the scouts say this and the scouts say that". Scouts have been wrong in the past and I think they will be again. I mmay be a minority but it is what I think.
You're right, you're both alone.

You've also not put up any valid points that he shouldn't be #2, only that other D prospects in the past that weren't held in the same regard didn't develop as planned. That has nothing to do with Jones.

You can think what you would like, we'll revisit this next summer.

Konk is online now  
Old
11-06-2012, 05:20 AM
  #569
YashinWorksHard
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Spain
Posts: 195
vCash: 500
I'm with Habs4TheCup in this one, Barkov would be my 2nd choice too and i'm always very skeptical with D's in the top ten. But it's still too early, two years ago anybody knew nothing about Huberdeau in november and then he was the third overall.

Interesting stat:

Anders Lee got 30 shots in eight games, the most in ND. Russo got 29! shots, impressive for a D. Last Year Russo had 50 shots in 40 games.

YashinWorksHard is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 07:15 AM
  #570
LeHabsMan
Registered User
 
LeHabsMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Laval
Country: Italy
Posts: 1,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YashinWorksHard View Post
I'm with Habs4TheCup in this one, Barkov would be my 2nd choice too and i'm always very skeptical with D's in the top ten. But it's still too early, two years ago anybody knew nothing about Huberdeau in november and then he was the third overall.

Interesting stat:

Anders Lee got 30 shots in eight games, the most in ND. Russo got 29! shots, impressive for a D. Last Year Russo had 50 shots in 40 games.
Thank you. I agree completely.

LeHabsMan is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 07:15 AM
  #571
LeHabsMan
Registered User
 
LeHabsMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Laval
Country: Italy
Posts: 1,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konk View Post
Clearly you're using that term loosely.

You're right, you're both alone.

You've also not put up any valid points that he shouldn't be #2, only that other D prospects in the past that weren't held in the same regard didn't develop as planned. That has nothing to do with Jones.

You can think what you would like, we'll revisit this next summer.
Hamilton and Couturier were "franchise talents" at one point in their draft year.

Yes, it is a gut feeling but I will stand by it. I am not saying he wont be good but I do think he will not live up to the expectations being put on him.

We will see this summer

LeHabsMan is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 09:44 AM
  #572
NYI78
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Milford CT
Country: United States
Posts: 711
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4TheCup View Post
Hamilton and Couturier were "franchise talents" at one point in their draft year.

Yes, it is a gut feeling but I will stand by it. I am not saying he wont be good but I do think he will not live up to the expectations being put on him.

We will see this summer
if at worse seth jones is adam foote then whoever drafts him will be very happy

NYI78 is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 10:43 AM
  #573
blinkman360
Richard Harrow Lives
 
blinkman360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Guido Central
Country: United States
Posts: 7,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYI78 View Post
if at worse seth jones is adam foote then whoever drafts him will be very happy
I'd be disappointed if he only turned into Adam Foote, considering how stacked this draft looks with offensive talent. The only way I'd be comfortable passing on the likes of MacKinnon, Barkov and Monahan for a defenseman is if I felt that defenseman could turn into the next Pietrangelo/Doughty/OEL. Foote was a solid defenseman who had a long and successful career, but with a 1st or 2nd overall pick your expectations should be a little higher than that.

blinkman360 is online now  
Old
11-06-2012, 11:14 AM
  #574
PWJunior
Moderator
Beware the POOP!
 
PWJunior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Watertown, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 12,267
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
Where do you have Frans? Please don't tell me you are demoting him to the 4th line now! I still think he's good enough to play 2nd line center but please don't tell me you are booting him out of the third line spot now...
Well, I was merely responding to the talent we have in our prospect base. Hey, I love Frans too - he'll need to earn his keep just like everyone else once Strome and Nelson are ready to go full steam. Opening Night 2015 is still a long time off so much can happen until then.

In any case, I am very pleased with our center depth in the system. Add in people like Cizikas, Ullstrom, and Sundstrom... it's going to be interesting to see how everything plays out.

PWJunior is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 11:26 AM
  #575
Degeneration Rex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Upstate,New York
Country: United States
Posts: 2,720
vCash: 500
Friday Night, NHL Network, 7PM

Halifax (McKinnon, Drouin) vs Gatineau.

Degeneration Rex is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:23 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.