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2012-2013 Prospect Talk PART IV

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11-23-2012, 06:00 AM
  #826
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
I'm curious how everyone else feels this will play out. Obviously this is a "good" problem to have, but at the same time we need to be sure we make the right decision, whatever it may be. I can't be the only one that's thought about this.
I know I've spoken a lot about this around the boards, and I think we truly should view Strome as no less than our #1 offensive prospect, but I'm not really hung up on the belief that a kid who is a center in his junior/USHL/college/high school/etc. period of play can't or shouldn't be altered to the wing at the pro level.

If he's got the goods, he's got the goods. Hands, hockey sense, scoring ability - the truly talented players will produce in any one of the three forward positions, especially if paired with guys with whom they can gel. That's my take (have no interest in 'arguing' over it).

With the emergence of Nelson - and as you alluded to, it's looking very legitimate to think he's got a solid future as a strong #2 center - I think the question the Islanders will face mostly revolves around the pondering "Have we drafted someone who can optimally compliment Tavares on his line?"

It's my strong opinion that no prospect in the system looks as promising as an offensive sidegun to Tavares than does Strome. In addition, no relevant/realistically valued trading of Strome or Nelson should happen until all options have been exhausted in determining whether both, at the same time, can be part of a long-time winner right here on the Island.

Of the three, I'm thinking option "C)" will at least be given a longgggg look-see before either options A) or B) are taken into consideration, barring an overwhelming trade offer from another team.

This all said, heck, we may just see Tavares, Strome and Nelson up the middle (likely with Cizikas manning line four 4) in the near future. If it gets the team winning, run with it.

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11-23-2012, 07:29 AM
  #827
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
One has to question the consistency behind signing policies that, for example, let a kid like Spurgeon walk, but sign a kid like Clark? It's surely hardly a financial issue.
Can you please stop your blind armchair analysis? Just cheer for the Red Wings if you are so envious of their player development.

When we let Spurgeon walk, we also traded Jyri Niemi to the Rangers for a draft choice - if Spurgeon wasn't 5'9", the Islanders could have easily swung a similar deal, but they likely still wouldn't have signed him if he was 6'0". Nobody is going to trade us a draft pick for a 20 year old 5'9" defenseman who looked good, but not dominant, in juniors. We were very near to the 50 player ceiling at the time. Snow was even asked about this non-transaction, IIRC, on the Gary Bettman Show on Sirius XM. If you are at 50 players, you lose a lot of roster flexibility, such as picking up a starting goalie on re-entry waivers.

The fact of the matter is the Isles have one of the top 5 prospect pools in the NHL, bearing fruit in the AHL right now (Matt Donovan, Brock Nelson, Nino Neiderreiter, Casey Cizikas, David Ullstrom, Johan Sundstrom, John Persson). Losing a potential #5/6 dman for nothing and complaining about that is just poor perspective.

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11-23-2012, 08:28 AM
  #828
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At this point, I think Nelson's upside is way too big for him to be groomed as our 3rd line center of the future. I also think moving him to the wing makes even less sense than moving Strome there, mainly due to the size he brings from the center position, his ability in the face-off circle, and his 2-way play. IMO, it just wouldn't make sense.
I disagree with this. Strome is the number 2 center his playmaking skills are too good. I feel Nelson will start off on a line with nielson and grabner at the wing. He is a good two way player and on this line he will get his scoring chances. He has also played wing before. The sound tigers do not have many centers, which is why i think he even plays there to begin with. If anyone is the odd man out i think its ullstrom.

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11-23-2012, 08:51 AM
  #829
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That Aaron Ness guy also has been productive. Isles prospect/youth pool is closer to top three. Oilers are tge other standouts but their d-pool is not on the same field as ours, our forward core is closer to thiers than their d core to ours.

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11-23-2012, 09:10 AM
  #830
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I disagree with this. Strome is the number 2 center his playmaking skills are too good. I feel Nelson will start off on a line with nielson and grabner at the wing. He is a good two way player and on this line he will get his scoring chances. He has also played wing before. The sound tigers do not have many centers, which is why i think he even plays there to begin with. If anyone is the odd man out i think its ullstrom.
bailey or okposo may be the odd men out ultrom is great on the wing especially on a third line... i would not want to play a line of cizikas nielsen and ullstrom

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11-23-2012, 10:45 AM
  #831
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bailey or okposo may be the odd men out ultrom is great on the wing especially on a third line... i would not want to play a line of cizikas nielsen and ullstrom
I think this thread is getting a little out of control.

Strome and Nelson haven't proven ANYTHING at the pro level yet. There are a zillion players that show promise in junior and even early in their AHL careers that never achieve the LIMITED success that Okposo/Bailey have already.

I think the time when Bailey and Okposo become "expendable" because of the prospects that are currenlty in the system might be a Brooklyn decision, NOT a Coliseum one.

Does anyone really think Strome or Nelson would be better than Bailey or Okposo if there's a season THIS YEAR? Next Year?

Remember Bailey got 17 pts in 11 games in the AHL in his only stint there. And I know that those who saw him play live in Bridgeport (NYI78 I know you are one of them, Sneekypete and BennyBST) said that Bailey wasn't even that impressive in most of those AHL games.

I don't mean to be a downer, far from it, I've been really high on Nelson for the past two years. I like Strome but I think he still needs serious time to develop his speed and man-strength to be an effective offensive player in the NHL.

They replayed the CAN-USA WJC from 2007 (the one with Toews, Johnson, Price, Mueller - and the shootouts) and Okposo looked really promising back then.

As Brain Hemmorhage said, let's be thankful for the prospects we have, there are real promising players there. But let's not be so quick to write-off some of the young and STILL DEVELOPING NHL players are worry about trading/moving a roster player for the potential of a prospect that looks promising in junior. Remember when Nino Niederreiter was going to push Parenteau out of a job a long long time ago - 2011-12.

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11-23-2012, 11:04 AM
  #832
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I think this thread is getting a little out of control.

Strome and Nelson haven't proven ANYTHING at the pro level yet. There are a zillion players that show promise in junior and even early in their AHL careers that never achieve the LIMITED success that Okposo/Bailey have already.


I think the time when Bailey and Okposo become "expendable" because of the prospects that are currenlty in the system might be a Brooklyn decision, NOT a Coliseum one.

Does anyone really think Strome or Nelson would be better than Bailey or Okposo if there's a season THIS YEAR? Next Year?

Remember Bailey got 17 pts in 11 games in the AHL in his only stint there. And I know that those who saw him play live in Bridgeport (NYI78 I know you are one of them, Sneekypete and BennyBST) said that Bailey wasn't even that impressive in most of those AHL games.

I don't mean to be a downer, far from it, I've been really high on Nelson for the past two years. I like Strome but I think he still needs serious time to develop his speed and man-strength to be an effective offensive player in the NHL.

They replayed the CAN-USA WJC from 2007 (the one with Toews, Johnson, Price, Mueller - and the shootouts) and Okposo looked really promising back then.

As Brain Hemmorhage said, let's be thankful for the prospects we have, there are real promising players there. But let's not be so quick to write-off some of the young and STILL DEVELOPING NHL players are worry about trading/moving a roster player for the potential of a prospect that looks promising in junior. Remember when Nino Niederreiter was going to push Parenteau out of a job a long long time ago - 2011-12.
I agree. With Wang telling the press, that this current group is good enough to make the playoffs, I don't understand why fans would think the isles would move KO/Grabner before picks/prospects.

I love what we're seeing from Brock Nelson, but we have fans proposing trading Frans Nielsen at this point, based on Brock's last 16 AHL games.

Let's wait until these prospects get to the NHL and force the older players out of their roster spots, before making these trades.

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11-23-2012, 11:16 AM
  #833
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I think it's too early to worry about what to do with Strome and Nelson so I'll pass
for now and just let them develop which they are.

Here in St Catherines, getting ready for lunch, then back to work. Can't wait until tonight
to see Strome play. If you have any questions. comments or want me to keep a close
watch on something (blinkman360 asked about Dougie Hamilton) tonight please post on
the board and I''l do my best.

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11-23-2012, 11:23 AM
  #834
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Originally Posted by Degeneration Rex View Post
I think it's too early to worry about what to do with Strome and Nelson so I'll pass
for now and just let them develop which they are.

Here in St Catherines, getting ready for lunch, then back to work. Can't wait until tonight
to see Strome play. If you have any questions. comments or want me to keep a close
watch on something (blinkman360 asked about Dougie Hamilton) tonight please post on
the board and I''l do my best.
Just enjoy the game and watch OUR boys like a hawk. Screw Hamilton and anyone else that isn't Isles property.

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11-23-2012, 11:31 AM
  #835
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I agree. With Wang telling the press, that this current group is good enough to make the playoffs, I don't understand why fans would think the isles would move KO/Grabner before picks/prospects.

I love what we're seeing from Brock Nelson, but we have fans proposing trading Frans Nielsen at this point, based on Brock's last 16 AHL games.

Let's wait until these prospects get to the NHL and force the older players out of their roster spots, before making these trades.
I agree also with redbull's post. The Isles are brimming with young talent, but they are also highly unproven. I don't see many changes heading into next season (I'm losing all hope that there will be a season this year) and I've said it before, I don't see the number crunch forcing management to make real decisions until after next season.

By then, we'll have a better read on our high end prospects and the incumbents who have had a year to cement their status going forward - mainly Bailey, but it could apply to anyone else on the roster not named Tavares up front. The 2014-2015 season is the one where I expect this team to really make noise and the timing would be perfect with the impending move to Brooklyn the next season. Springboard into the inaugural BC season with a real bang. That's how I see it playing out at the current time.

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11-23-2012, 11:47 AM
  #836
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I agree also with redbull's post. The Isles are brimming with young talent, but they are also highly unproven. I don't see many changes heading into next season (I'm losing all hope that there will be a season this year) and I've said it before, I don't see the number crunch forcing management to make real decisions until after next season.

By then, we'll have a better read on our high end prospects and the incumbents who have had a year to cement their status going forward - mainly Bailey, but it could apply to anyone else on the roster not named Tavares up front. The 2014-2015 season is the one where I expect this team to really make noise and the timing would be perfect with the impending move to Brooklyn the next season. Springboard into the inaugural BC season with a real bang. That's how I see it playing out at the current time.
Isles are already reaching out to potential Brooklyn fans: sending ice girls and Sparky to school assemblies and taking deposits for season tixs.

If the new cba has teams dumping salaries, I wouldn't be surprised to see Snow trying to be active, willing to add salary. A few articles have speculated that Wang would like to get out of his current lease early. It wouldn't be a surprise, to read that this is what is behind Ratner acting as advisor for the County's Hub project.

I just don't see Snow rushing into a major move, before getting a better idea of what his top youngsters can do at the nhl level.

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11-23-2012, 12:12 PM
  #837
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Isles are already reaching out to potential Brooklyn fans: sending ice girls and Sparky to school assemblies and taking deposits for season tixs.

If the new cba has teams dumping salaries, I wouldn't be surprised to see Snow trying to be active, willing to add salary. A few articles have speculated that Wang would like to get out of his current lease early. It wouldn't be a surprise, to read that this is what is behind Ratner acting as advisor for the County's Hub project.

I just don't see Snow rushing into a major move, before getting a better idea of what his top youngsters can do at the nhl level.
I can definitely see Snow pursuing salary dumps around the league, especially for a defenseman in a similar situation to Visnovsky. The Isles are certainly positioned well in the case that the salary cap does go down.

As for an early move to Brooklyn, I could them buying out the last season and start at the BC a year earlier than currently planned. They still need time to build new locker rooms and make other alterations to increase the seating capacity. I'm sure Ratner wants the Isles in there ASAP, but I don't see Wang not giving the NVMC one more year in order to not completely alienate the current epicenter of the fan base.

In that case, I still don't see any major moves happening until next year's offseason.

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11-23-2012, 12:57 PM
  #838
Chapin Landvogt
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Can you please stop your blind armchair analysis?

Losing a potential #5/6 dman for nothing and complaining about that is just poor perspective.
Of what do you speak here?

BH, I fear you've missed the point completely...

Take a look at what Spurgeon is and managed to do before the Isles decided not to sign him.

Now take a look at what Clark is and has done leading up to the Isles deciding to sign him. Take further into account that they had no pressure to do so and that he's not even been playing, much less producing.

What disturbs you about a person pondering about, ney, I dare say questioning, their logic in feeling this example of Spurgeon was not worthy of an ELC, but the example Clark was?

No reason we fans can't be critical of this kind of thing. I'd say it's much more about being attentive and analytical than being 'blind' and presenting 'poor perspective'.

As an aside:
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one around these parts who felt the Isles might have caught some lightning in a bottle with their pick of Spurgeon. They just decided not to sign him. They've since gone on to pick a few other Dmen of fairly similar profiles/situations in later rounds (such as Dehart, Kichton and Graham). Think Snow 'n co. aren't looking to get lucking in this manner again?


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11-23-2012, 01:05 PM
  #839
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Of what do you speak here?

BH, I fear you've missed the point completely...

Take a look at what Spurgeon is and managed to do before the Isles decided not to sign him.

Now take a look at what Clark is and has done leading up to the Isles deciding to sign him. Take further into account that they had no pressure to do so and that he's not even been playing, much less producing.

What disturbs you about a person pondering about, ney, I dare say questioning, their logic in feeling this example of Spurgeon was not worthy of an ELC, but the example Clark was?

No reason we fans can be critical of this kind of thing. I'd say it's much more about being attentive and analytical than being 'blind' and presenting 'poor perspective'.

As an aside:
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one around these parts who felt the Isles might have caught some lightning in a bottle with their pick of Spurgeon. They just decided not to sign him. They've since gone on to pick a few other Dmen of fairly similar profiles/situations in later rounds (such as Dehart, Kichton and Graham). Think Snow 'n co. aren't looking to get lucking in this manner again?
Not speaking for BH because he may have a different take on this, but it's tough to really gauge what's going with these prospects because we have NO IDEA besides what little we see from the odd game, the stats and what we interpret - right or wrong.

We can only speculate. Like whether Cody Rosen has a rich father who helps real estate deals outside of hockey. Maybe Jason Clark does too. Maybe he's got a hot sister. Or maybe, he's got size, skates well, has potential to fill a role that a small defenseman (when we already have several others) cannot.

At some point, we should trust the judgement of the team, especially when they've accumulated a great prospect pool already, the envy of the league (maybe that's a stretch, but there aren't many teams that WOULDN'T swap prospects with the NYI today)

It's a bit unfair to question specific moves that seem like they make no sense, when the larger body of moves have been pretty good ones, at least with respect to the draft.

As far as Spurgeon goes, he's not exactly Bryan Rafalski. I don't think he's worth "missing" much more than we don't miss Bruno Gervais or Jack Hillen.

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11-23-2012, 01:57 PM
  #840
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Not speaking for BH because he may have a different take on this, but it's tough to really gauge what's going with these prospects because we have NO IDEA besides what little we see from the odd game, the stats and what we interpret - right or wrong.
Is there nothing about the Clark signing that has you asking 'Why? What's going on there?'

In a time where we've got no NHL to watch, we're ultimately going to give attention to things that may otherwise not be bothered with.

In any case, someone did ask. I answered. Part of my answer involves questioning one example of a non-signed player who had a very promising WHL career and has since become a regular NHLer (Spurgeon) in comparison with a guy who gave no indication as to why he was signed whatsoever - and hasn't since.

In general, it's simply another issue in questioning Snow in his asset management abilities in general, something I've regularly found reason to do.

Not sure why that bothers some folks? It's not as though I don't or haven't recognized where the Isles have done good work in drafting, signing, developing, etc. players.

However, I disagree that we have 'no idea' what's going on. When we have a player who is signed after two injury-riddled NCAA seasons with a total of 2 assists in what, 35 games, and then suits up for 2 of 15 possible AHL games and NO ECHL games, we can pretty much figure out that either he's still having health issues or that the coaching staff simply has deemed other guys to be ahead of him on the depth chart. Sure, there may be other variables playing a role, but in any case, there's not yet been any reason given allowing us to 'understand' what motivated to Isles to sign him at this juncture. There were none before the signing. There've been none since.

In addition, I wish we'd hear a bit more about this from the team. They love to keep hush-hush about stuff like this, just as they didn't feel the need to say why Nilsson was M.I.A for like the first 9 games or so.

Quote:
We can only speculate. Like whether Cody Rosen has a rich father who helps real estate deals outside of hockey. Maybe Jason Clark does too. Maybe he's got a hot sister. Or maybe, he's got size, skates well, has potential to fill a role that a small defenseman (when we already have several others) cannot.
Of all that, I'll speculate that having a hot sister seems the most logical.:-)

Actually, although I did have to wonder what they saw in Clark at the time (for example, he was seventh in scoring on a dominating Shattuck St. Mary's team and several of the higher-scoring teammates were still on the board), it wasn't a pick I thought much about (other than that I'd love to have seen Kuhnhackl be taken at that juncture).

I just hope that the lack of development bis dato is due solely to the hip problems (not that I don't wish him well in putting those behind him), and has less to do with the team failing to analyse the true NHL possibilities.

They've done that before.

Quote:
It's a bit unfair to question specific moves that seem like they make no sense, when the larger body of moves have been pretty good ones, at least with respect to the draft.
It's always fair to question moves that seem illogical or inconsistent. Always. We're fans talking at a fan board. We're fans of a team that hasn't been a winner in a long while. It's actually even more fair in our case.

Quote:
As far as Spurgeon goes, he's not exactly Bryan Rafalski. I don't think he's worth "missing" much more than we don't miss Bruno Gervais or Jack Hillen.
I actually missed Jack Hillen at times last season. Seriously!

I also think Gervais isn't nearly as good as Spurgeon.

But to your point, let's get more technical. I've questioned why the team would be motivated to sign a guy like Clark, but not a guy like Spurgeon. BH mentioned the concerns about the 50 contract limit at the time. A very good reason to make a decision not to sign a 5'8" offensive Dman. I definitely see that playing a good role.

But riddle me this: What did Aaron Ness, a 2nd round lefty-shooting Dman with pretty much the exact same profile as the 6th round righty-shooting Jared Spurgeon, do before or after his signing that has actually outdone Spurgeon? What?

Ness had a very unsuspecting college career that hadn't come to an end and where he clearly hadn't 'outgrown' or 'dominated' his league. For all intensive purposes, could Snow not have taken the viable achievements of Spurgeon into heavier consideration, signed him and then waited a bit longer for Ness, possibly letting Aaron be the one to walk instead?

Not worth thinking about?

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11-23-2012, 03:18 PM
  #841
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Of what do you speak here?

BH, I fear you've missed the point completely...

Take a look at what Spurgeon is and managed to do before the Isles decided not to sign him.
{MOD EDIT}

Talk about missing the point, pot... Kettle. Go back and re-read his post. The POINT is that the Isles were at the roster limit and they had already traded Niemi who had value on the market, clearly Spurgeon did not. They were forced to let him go. It had nothing to do with what each had accomplished. If they had felt Spurgeon was truly the next Rafalski I'm sure they would've made room for him. He isn't. They didn't lose out on much, a 5/6th PP specialist at best.

Fast forward to when they signed Clark, they were not faced with the roster limit problem. Thus they signed him for depth in Bridgeport.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill on this one and it is of very little consequence in the grand scheme of things. Get over it and move on for chrissake. Your argument is moot and tiresome at this point.


Last edited by Homeland Security: 11-23-2012 at 05:11 PM. Reason: Edit
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11-23-2012, 03:19 PM
  #842
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Edmonton vs. Moose Jaw tonight at 9 eastern. Cue the "Rielly vs. Reinhart" threads in t-minus 5 hours

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11-23-2012, 04:34 PM
  #843
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Can't wait, game time tonight is at 7PM. Going now for some pizza then heading to the arena
for the Niagara-Belleville game. I will post sometime after 10 while watching the Moose Jaw
Edmonton game on Sportsnet.

Rex.

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11-23-2012, 04:43 PM
  #844
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Can't wait, game time tonight is at 7PM. Going now for some pizza then heading to the arena
for the Niagara-Belleville game. I will post sometime after 10 while watching the Moose Jaw
Edmonton game on Sportsnet.

Rex.
drex, do something noteworthy to prove that you are there, like streaking, maybe with just an Isles cap, maybe get an ice girl to do it with you. something!

we need something. there's a lockout!

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11-23-2012, 05:01 PM
  #845
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Edmonton vs. Moose Jaw tonight at 9 eastern. Cue the "Rielly vs. Reinhart" threads in t-minus 5 hours
Forgot all about this game, sweet! Excited to see big Griff in action, interested to see Curtis Lazar also.

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11-23-2012, 06:09 PM
  #846
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Forgot all about this game, sweet! Excited to see big Griff in action, interested to see Curtis Lazar also.
Same here, Regina is playing Vancouver right now. I'm gonna' try and catch that game and check out 2013 draft eligible prospects Morgan Klimchuk and Jackson Houck.

Edit: This first game is a replay.

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11-23-2012, 06:36 PM
  #847
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Joensuu out two months

Didn't see this posted, JJ joins KK and deHaan on the long term injury list.

Sucks for him, he was playing well.

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11-23-2012, 08:18 PM
  #848
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Reinhart impressing me with his reach and jumping in offensively as well as ripping bombs from the point in his first two shifts. Oil Kings now on the PK from a penalty drawn by Morgan Rielly.

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11-23-2012, 08:23 PM
  #849
PWJunior
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Originally Posted by seafoam View Post
Reinhart impressing me with his reach and jumping in offensively as well as ripping bombs from the point in his first two shifts. Oil Kings now on the PK from a penalty drawn by Morgan Rielly.
He's really poised and he's a big boy. Showed some snarl too. His skating stride looks pretty good and he can move for a big kid. Happy to see that.

Also, Strome with another big night, 2g 1a in a 4-1 win. Looking forward to the analysis from DRex.

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11-23-2012, 08:31 PM
  #850
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
Also, Strome with another big night, 2g 1a in a 4-1 win. Looking forward to the analysis from DRex.
Indeed! Can't wait...

Hope he's gotten a look at Theoret as well.

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