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Why Does Anyone Root for Incompetent, Failing Teams?

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Old
08-30-2012, 02:57 PM
  #51
Twine Seeking Missle
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Originally Posted by 13th Floor View Post
So what is your argument for teams that have spent just as much if not more than the Yankees in recent years on FA but haven't had the success the Yankees have had?

The Phillies bought their entire pitching staff (except Hammels), the best in baseball, and have gotten worse each year. The Mets suck every year. The Red Sox are terrible. The Angels and Tigers might not make the playoffs.
Hey man... you are wasting your time throwing facts at him. He is obviously brainwashed like all the other Yankee haters out there. Everything you said just now was spot on. Yes, the Yankees do spend a ton of money. But so do a lot of other teams and most of those teams can barely win a round in the playoffs... including all those Yankees teams of 2004 to 2008 which were LOADED with high priced free agents.

Then you have teams like the Rays and Oakland (more this year and back in the early/mid 2000's) who are able to put together winning, competitive teams with a bare bones payroll.

And no one has mentioned the Marlins this past offseason. Spent a TON of money... most analysts picked them to win the NL East and halfway through the season they are so far out of it they start shipping guys out.

Does money buy you a better chance than some of the smaller market teams? Does it buy you an extra roulette chip to place on the table? Sure. But it by no means guarantees anything. Anyone who thinks so is just silly.

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08-30-2012, 09:44 PM
  #52
19NYSports91
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
I argue, "How could anybody root for a team that always wins?" I don't see how anybody can be a Yankee fan. How can you appreciate a team that does not build from within and only goes out and tries to buy the best players and focuses nothing on those nuances like a farm team and good drafting? How does that make you a talented franchise? All it does is make you a rich person who will buy whatever you can hoping for a pennant. In the last 20 years i can count maybe 3 or 4 homegrown stars while all the rest were overpaid purchases from other teams.

Granted I don't think this is the Yankees fault so much as the problem with baseball in general. Too few rich teams with all the rest trying to catch them. The Yankees don't win every year because they build a good farm system, they win every year because they have the money to buy every good free agent available. What do you expect though, their fans wouldn't have it any other way. They need to keep buying pennants, spending money to make money. So if I was a Yankees fan I would know in the back of my mind that pennant wins for a team like that are not nearly as sweet as when your team drafts well, develops their players, and wins from within. When the Islanders turn it around that first cup is going to be better than all the Yankees world series wins put together because it will be done the hard way....
I'm sorry, but this whole post is ridiculous.

First off, most people are fans of the teams that their dad grew up liking, like my self who is a Yankees, Jets, and Islanders fan. I played baseball pretty much my whole life so its VERY EASY for me to be a Yankees fan. How can you not appreciate a team that is trying to win every single year? Sure, they have the highest payroll, but they also bring in the most revenue. The Cubs and Mets were up in the top of the league in payroll, how'd that work out for them?

I don't think you know too much about the Yankees, their farm system is probably ranked in the top 10 and they draft pretty well. They drafted a lot of top prospects, but they wind up going to college and going higher in the draft 3 years later, something that NEVER HAPPENS IN ANY OTHER SPORT. Exs: Gerrit Cole was drafted 1st overall in 2011, the Yankees drafted him 28th overall in 2008. Yankees drafted Mark Prior in the 1998 Amateur Draft, but were unable to sign him. Prior re-entered the draft in 2001 and went 2nd overall. Yankees drafted Daniel Bard in the 20th round in 2003, Red Sox drafted him 28th overall in 2006.

Not saying all these guys are stars, but they are/were good players. Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, Andy Pettitte, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, Robinson Cano, Alfonso Soriano, David Robertson, Ian Kennedy, Austin Jackson, Melky Cabrera, Brett Gardner, Phil Hughes, Ivan Nova, Joba Chamberlain, Jesus Montero, Boone Logan.

Out of all those players above, 11 made the All Star Team at least once.


Last edited by 19NYSports91: 08-30-2012 at 10:49 PM.
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08-31-2012, 01:39 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Noreaster96 View Post
I'm assuming you're a mets fan, in which case I'm sure you're just mad te mets are worse at getting good talent than te Yankees. If the meta had the same success from the Yankees way of doin it you'd be happy would you not? Just cuz the Yankees are better at FA in terms of players try get actually producing than the mets doesn't mean you should hate on the yanks for playing completely within the rules of the game.

I also find it hilarious that an isles fan, who has an owner that most of the fanbase dislikes for allegedly never wanting to spend any money, hates the Yankees for spending money
Actually you worked yourself in to the first part of assume by this statement. I am actually barely a baseball fan now, but when I did like a team it was the Orioles. I watched them bring up guys through their system like Ripken, Roberts, Mussina just too name a few. I saw Mussina snatched up from the O's during free agency not so much a fault to the Yankees but a shining example of how much a ********* Peter Angelos is.

I love how people have to put words in others mouth to bolster their argument. NOWHERE did i say it was a guarantee and just like another poster said, it sure strengthens the chance of it happening. You think the Yankees don't buy championships you are sadly mistaken. Twine Seeking Missile doesn't want to argue the point anymore, not because my thoughts were coherent and well stated, it was pretty much that he already proved my point but thinks that 4 or 5 homegrown players in 20 years is enough, lol. That's actual brainwashing and has nothing to do with me being a Yankee hater. That's just true "running with blinders" on and the only possible reason he could think that having that many homegrown players is a core and enough to be the reason championships were won.

Also, i never said other teams haven't done this. The Phillies tried it, the Mets tried it, the Marlins tried it, there are only two teams that do it on an annual basis and that's the Red Sox and Yankees. So yeah, argue all you want that other teams try it, but look in the mirror if you want to find the biggest perpetrator of bullying large market teams with more money than brains.

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08-31-2012, 09:14 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
Actually you worked yourself in to the first part of assume by this statement. I am actually barely a baseball fan now, but when I did like a team it was the Orioles. I watched them bring up guys through their system like Ripken, Roberts, Mussina just too name a few.
By your logic, your Orioles "bought" their most successful teams of the past 20 years. The 1996 and '97 teams reached the ALCS on the backs of purchased players.

Roberto Alomar, Rafael Palmeiro, David Wells, Eddie Murray, Bobby Bonilla, B.J. Surhoff, Scott Erickson, Randy Myers, Alan Mills, Jesse Orosco, Jimmy Key...

All integral core players on those two strong teams imported from around the league. Ripken, Mussina and a few others from the farm were deep in the minority.

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Old
08-31-2012, 09:22 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by PJGooch View Post
By your logic, your Orioles "bought" their most successful teams of the past 20 years. The 1996 and '97 teams reached the ALCS on the backs of purchased players.

Roberto Alomar, Rafael Palmeiro, David Wells, Eddie Murray, Bobby Bonilla, B.J. Surhoff, Scott Erickson, Randy Myers, Alan Mills, Jesse Orosco, Jimmy Key...

All integral core players on those two strong teams imported from around the league. Ripken, Mussina and a few others from the farm were deep in the minority.
Thank you sir. Suddenly I don't feel so "lonely" anymore.

leaponover has no idea what he is talking about... if I haven't made that point enough yet. I name 6 or 7 guys from the championship teams, all core players that were homegrown and he goes, "those are the only playerz! LOLZ!" Really? Last I checked, the core of a team consists of anywhere from 5 to 8 players surrounded by supplemental players. The core of those world series teams was 85% homegrown. How much more do you want?

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08-31-2012, 09:24 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by 19NYSports91 View Post
I'm sorry, but this whole post is ridiculous.

First off, most people are fans of the teams that their dad grew up liking, like my self who is a Yankees, Jets, and Islanders fan. I played baseball pretty much my whole life so its VERY EASY for me to be a Yankees fan. How can you not appreciate a team that is trying to win every single year? Sure, they have the highest payroll, but they also bring in the most revenue. The Cubs and Mets were up in the top of the league in payroll, how'd that work out for them?

I don't think you know too much about the Yankees, their farm system is probably ranked in the top 10 and they draft pretty well. They drafted a lot of top prospects, but they wind up going to college and going higher in the draft 3 years later, something that NEVER HAPPENS IN ANY OTHER SPORT. Exs: Gerrit Cole was drafted 1st overall in 2011, the Yankees drafted him 28th overall in 2008. Yankees drafted Mark Prior in the 1998 Amateur Draft, but were unable to sign him. Prior re-entered the draft in 2001 and went 2nd overall. Yankees drafted Daniel Bard in the 20th round in 2003, Red Sox drafted him 28th overall in 2006.

Not saying all these guys are stars, but they are/were good players. Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, Andy Pettitte, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, Robinson Cano, Alfonso Soriano, David Robertson, Ian Kennedy, Austin Jackson, Melky Cabrera, Brett Gardner, Phil Hughes, Ivan Nova, Joba Chamberlain, Jesus Montero, Boone Logan.

Out of all those players above, 11 made the All Star Team at least once.

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08-31-2012, 09:37 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
Actually you worked yourself in to the first part of assume by this statement. I am actually barely a baseball fan now, but when I did like a team it was the Orioles. I watched them bring up guys through their system like Ripken, Roberts, Mussina just too name a few. I saw Mussina snatched up from the O's during free agency not so much a fault to the Yankees but a shining example of how much a ********* Peter Angelos is.

I love how people have to put words in others mouth to bolster their argument. NOWHERE did i say it was a guarantee and just like another poster said, it sure strengthens the chance of it happening. You think the Yankees don't buy championships you are sadly mistaken. Twine Seeking Missile doesn't want to argue the point anymore, not because my thoughts were coherent and well stated, it was pretty much that he already proved my point but thinks that 4 or 5 homegrown players in 20 years is enough, lol. That's actual brainwashing and has nothing to do with me being a Yankee hater. That's just true "running with blinders" on and the only possible reason he could think that having that many homegrown players is a core and enough to be the reason championships were won.

Also, i never said other teams haven't done this. The Phillies tried it, the Mets tried it, the Marlins tried it, there are only two teams that do it on an annual basis and that's the Red Sox and Yankees. So yeah, argue all you want that other teams try it, but look in the mirror if you want to find the biggest perpetrator of bullying large market teams with more money than brains.
You also kind of hurt yourself by saying you are barely a baseball fan anymore and no other teams do it. You can speak to what happened in baseball when you did watch, but now that you don't, it's tough to make points. The Phillies have a bigger payroll than the Red Sox this year. Neither of them will make the playoffs.

There are 9 teams with over $110 million in payroll: Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox, Angels, Tigers, Rangers, Marlins, Giants, Cards.

Out of those 9, only the Yankees, Rangers, Giants, and Cards are in the playoffs. And the only reason the Cards are in is because they added a Wild Card this year.

Does having a top-tier payroll help? Of course. It shouldn't be Yankees fans fault that the people who run the team actually pump money in the team because, oh my, they actually want to win. I've had to hit the back button on my browser multiple times in this thread to remember we are on the friggin' Isles board and the countless Wang sucks threads still exist.

But people who don't watch baseball [anymore] act as if it's the end all be all. They see the Yankees success and they see their payroll and they instantly draw that connection. As if low payroll teams aren't successful and all high payroll teams are. The Rays, the A's, the O's, etc are all successful this year. Like I said, a high payroll helps, but given the fact that teams with high payrolls don't have near the success that the Yankees have, it proves that there are a lot of smart people in the organization who know how to win baseball games, not buy baseball games. If it were a given, then they wouldn't have missed the playoffs only once in the past 20 years. And the Phillies, Red Sox, Mets, Cubs would all be good every year. So what's the difference between these teams and the Yankees?

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Old
09-01-2012, 06:32 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
Actually you worked yourself in to the first part of assume by this statement. I am actually barely a baseball fan now, but when I did like a team it was the Orioles. I watched them bring up guys through their system like Ripken, Roberts, Mussina just too name a few. I saw Mussina snatched up from the O's during free agency not so much a fault to the Yankees but a shining example of how much a ********* Peter Angelos is.

I love how people have to put words in others mouth to bolster their argument. NOWHERE did i say it was a guarantee and just like another poster said, it sure strengthens the chance of it happening. You think the Yankees don't buy championships you are sadly mistaken. Twine Seeking Missile doesn't want to argue the point anymore, not because my thoughts were coherent and well stated, it was pretty much that he already proved my point but thinks that 4 or 5 homegrown players in 20 years is enough, lol. That's actual brainwashing and has nothing to do with me being a Yankee hater. That's just true "running with blinders" on and the only possible reason he could think that having that many homegrown players is a core and enough to be the reason championships were won.

Also, i never said other teams haven't done this. The Phillies tried it, the Mets tried it, the Marlins tried it, there are only two teams that do it on an annual basis and that's the Red Sox and Yankees. So yeah, argue all you want that other teams try it, but look in the mirror if you want to find the biggest perpetrator of bullying large market teams with more money than brains.
Or teams with owners that are willing to pump the money they make back into their teams rather than putting it into their wallets... I hardly feel bad for the multi-millionaire owners of any sports team, not that they have the money to compete with the yankees/red sox etc but alot of times greed and mismanagement of the funds they do have does them in rather than bullying. The fact of the matter is baseball as a business is so much healthier when the Yankees are a strong team, they go into any city and games are pretty much sold out, theyre one of the most recognizable franchises in the entire world and they provide a team for the underdogs to beat... A strong Yankees team is good for baseball. But back to my point, it doesn't guarantee anything, so why complain about it? Are the games played on paper all of the sudden?

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09-02-2012, 12:18 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by 13th Floor View Post
You also kind of hurt yourself by saying you are barely a baseball fan anymore and no other teams do it. You can speak to what happened in baseball when you did watch, but now that you don't, it's tough to make points. The Phillies have a bigger payroll than the Red Sox this year. Neither of them will make the playoffs.

There are 9 teams with over $110 million in payroll: Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox, Angels, Tigers, Rangers, Marlins, Giants, Cards.

Out of those 9, only the Yankees, Rangers, Giants, and Cards are in the playoffs. And the only reason the Cards are in is because they added a Wild Card this year.

Does having a top-tier payroll help? Of course. It shouldn't be Yankees fans fault that the people who run the team actually pump money in the team because, oh my, they actually want to win. I've had to hit the back button on my browser multiple times in this thread to remember we are on the friggin' Isles board and the countless Wang sucks threads still exist.

But people who don't watch baseball [anymore] act as if it's the end all be all. They see the Yankees success and they see their payroll and they instantly draw that connection. As if low payroll teams aren't successful and all high payroll teams are. The Rays, the A's, the O's, etc are all successful this year. Like I said, a high payroll helps, but given the fact that teams with high payrolls don't have near the success that the Yankees have, it proves that there are a lot of smart people in the organization who know how to win baseball games, not buy baseball games. If it were a given, then they wouldn't have missed the playoffs only once in the past 20 years. And the Phillies, Red Sox, Mets, Cubs would all be good every year. So what's the difference between these teams and the Yankees?
Once again I am not speaking in absolutes. I realize there are always exceptions. Pointing out the exceptions does not invalidate my claim however. Anyway, as another poster pointed out I am long removed from the baseball scene. The Orioles did "try" to buy success and failed against the Yankees who "bought" more success and it didn't help that a blind, deaf, and dumb umpire couldn't see a fan reach over the effing fence and interfere with an easy out. So chalk that one up to luck...

Anyway, I am going to gracefully bow out of this argument because I do agree it is not fair for me to make comments about the team now since I am not knowledgeable in baseball at this point. I still hold true to what I say by watching what the Yankees did in the mid to late 90's up until about 2001 when I stopped watching baseball. There pitching staff was just a revolving door of whatever ace pitched on another team the season before was available. Twine Seeking Missile throws out an 85% number with 5-8 homegrown players but his math is a little off. Do you really think a roster is that small?

Lastly, I don't take attacks on the Isles personally and above where you stated "it shouldn't be a Yankees fans fault" I never insulted Yankee fans. I criticized the organization, it's methods, and challenged Yankee fans to think about how much better a cup win from the Isles would be building through the draft than what their team does in buying the best players every season. Many Islander fans are Yankee fans and I don't have a problem with the fans.

I officially concede and though I am not withdrawing my point, I do feel that I am not knowledgeable enough to continue the debate so I admit defeat...

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09-02-2012, 09:02 AM
  #60
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why does anyone read incompetent, failing newspapers?

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09-02-2012, 10:13 AM
  #61
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I've been reading over this debate about high payroll teams vs. low payroll teams and a surprised no one has made an issue about retaining homegrown talent. Of course one can always make the argument that bought-for teams usually fail to meet expectations but even if that's true the fact that high payroll teams rarely, if ever, need to worry about other teams pillaging their homegrown talent gives them a tremendous advantage. Someone mentioned all the good drafting and developing the Yankees have done over the years... well at least the Yankees get to keep those players after they become stars. Small markets don't have that luxury. In fact, it's the main reason why even the well-run low payroll franchises are rarely able to take that final step and become champions or keep championship caliber teams together for very long.

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09-02-2012, 11:49 PM
  #62
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Maybe we get lucky and Wang suffers from a mid life crisis... sells the club, buys a Virgin ticket to Saturn and goes off in a rocket red glare.

Sure.

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09-03-2012, 05:58 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by 13th Floor View Post
Pretty interesting read from the Times about being a Raiders fan, which I thought translated well to being an Isles fan.



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/ma...pagewanted=all
as an oiler fan I always look at what is coming down the road--however with the NYI I think if wang sold the team it would be for the better

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09-03-2012, 10:22 AM
  #64
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I've been reading over this debate about high payroll teams vs. low payroll teams and a surprised no one has made an issue about retaining homegrown talent. Of course one can always make the argument that bought-for teams usually fail to meet expectations but even if that's true the fact that high payroll teams rarely, if ever, need to worry about other teams pillaging their homegrown talent gives them a tremendous advantage. Someone mentioned all the good drafting and developing the Yankees have done over the years... well at least the Yankees get to keep those players after they become stars. Small markets don't have that luxury. In fact, it's the main reason why even the well-run low payroll franchises are rarely able to take that final step and become champions or keep championship caliber teams together for very long.
Good examples: Seattle losing A-Rod, Indians having to trade CC, Brewers losing CC, etc.

Smaller market teams like the Rays have to hit on basically everything in order to stay competitive. It's not true parity and I'm a Yankees fan who was once in denial.

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09-03-2012, 02:38 PM
  #65
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as an oiler fan I always look at what is coming down the road--however with the NYI I think if wang sold the team it would be for the better
It would be like Bill Wurtz exited this mortal coil and left his death grip on a once proud franchise.

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